I'm making the effort to call both of you aside to say, I think your M is salvagable ... and it is worth saving. Your devotion and love for your children means you must serve your marriage on their behalf. Your individual best effort is required. I don't think either of you have done nearly enough to 'earn' your right to divorce and break up your childrens' home!

What calls out from your posts is the underlying chronic hurt which is the root of your marital troubles. There is pain and lonliness behind much of your actions toward each other.

I was wondering .... what if ....

BOTH of you committed to just 30 days of uninterrupted selflessness in your marriage ... a time frame where you make it your business to comfort, sooth, and show kindness toward each other with no expectations of any sort from each other? Your only duty (for 30 days) is to serve each other's legitimate needs for respect, honesty, kind words, warmth and consideration. For 30 days you set aside your own hurt and you concentrate on creating a wonderful environment at home.

Win you meet Bass's needs with a glad heart. Bass you do the same.

And absolutely no relationship talk and no discussion about past hurts or abuses .... for 30 days.

... and you each do this without measuring. No 'tit for tat' or 'I'll scratch your back only if you'll scratch mine' attitude.

You willingly ask yourself for just 30 days to make no demands on your spouse. You are there to generously create a soft place for the other to fall.

No measuring at all to see who is giving more or who is not giving more.

Be the humble servent of the marriage for 30 days ... and see what happends.

No measuring each other. No taking each other's emotional temperature. You are only offering love and kindness for 30 short days ... to benifit your children's happiness and future.

What do you think?

I know neither of you think too much of me ... and it does not matter ... this is not about me but about your children. Your children and their home are ultimately more important than just about anything else.

So please, put aside your feelings and opinions about me ... and consider 30 days of committed service to your family.

Pep

This is log in worthy advice if I ever saw it!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's a good thought, Pep. I proposed much the same thing last night when I showed up after her IC appt. I asked her to at least consider it. She has decided not to move out at this time, but I don't know if she's doing that for the kids or because her IC told her not to move out of the house for legal reasons. I tell you that really pissed me off. Her IC (and my former MC) knows absolutely NOTHING about me if she thinks I plan on screwing Win out of anything that's coming to her in a divorce settlement...that's just not the way I play the game.

I realize now this counselor was completely wrong for us. Her message of "if it feels good you should do it" is great for hippies or 18-year olds with nothing to lose, but piss poor for people who have made marriage vows and commitments to children. I'd like to propose yet another change in counselors, but Win is comfortable with this one (no surprise, she's hearing exactly what she wants to) and she hasn't even agreed to try again on the marriage yet.

Also, I don't know if Win will see this or not. She has come to the conclusion that this board has nothing to offer the WS other than bashing and she's vowed not to post her anymore. I have to say, I kind of agree with her. There have been very few attempts to understand her and sympathize with her here, and plenty of bashing, condemnation, etc. Yes, the WS needs to hear about the pain they cause on the part of the BS, but this tool is useless if it's just a bash fest. There's usually a REASON why a WS wanders, and rare is the completely innocent BS indeed. I know that I did very poorly in our marriage the last five years and at least 1/2 the blame for this disaster belongs to me.

OK, vent over. Great suggestion, Pep, I will point Win to it and tell her I would love to agree to this with her. Unfortunately, I already know she will refuse to give up chat/Myspace, and that IMO is the thing keeping her contempt for me fueled. And any attempts to reconcile and get past the past hurts are useless with all these other men running around in her head.

Well, much goodness to you Bass.

Don't give up yet ... I know, easy for me to say ... but you two have a history and kids ... and this mess was not made overnight , just rambling.

sorry....

Pep

I don't know how you would know if this marriage is worth saving. Because there are kids involved? Is every marriage with children to be saved at all costs? At the cost of the happiness of the parents? Because having depressed and unhappy parents who are together does NOTHING for the children either.

I've tried years of faking it to see if something would come back and I don't know if I have it in me to do it anymore. I don't see how pretending you love someone is going to change anything. And since he decided after 5 sessions that he has solved all his issues how do I know that in 6 months he will not return to the person he was before?

He doesnt like the counselor because she tells him he has a LOT of work to do. I think its far too painful for him to want to delve into his self and see why he's so needy, selfish, and afraid to let people in. She doesn't have a "feel good/do it" mentality. She has a why are we doing these things mentality.

I don't see how 30 days of pretending is going to change anything. When I think about it I feel like I just want to run away. I'm tired of being controlled, I'm tired of being dominated, I'm tired of being talked out of my FEELINGS. I'm tired of everything being on HIS timeline. OF course I want everything to be better for my children, can't anyone see how this is killing me? To feel desperate and trapped? That is why I act out with my stupid behavior. Much like he did by taking drugs for 10 years.

Sometimes things just die, and then they are dead. I won't settle for ok or mediocre, there's only 1 chance in this life.

It is my opinion that abandoning this marriage too early may very likely make you even less able to create a happy life for yourself no matter where you go.

Problems will follow you that you cannot run away from.
That's why.

Pep

I do not know the details of you guys' sitch. Don't even know which is the BS or WS - maybe both of you are both.

But I have a pretty good idea that neither one of you, or at least one of you, appreciates the opportunity you have > you have the opportunity to keep your family intact.

Do you wanna know what it's like NOT to have that opportunity? Imagine one of your kids gone. Dead. Taken from you against everything you could have possibly done to prevent it. Not a comfortable proposition for anyone to imagine - to have it DONE to you. The "family" is gone.

You guys are doing this voluntarily.

Can I have your kids?

WAT

WinBin,

No you shouldn't "settle" but you have a real chance here to change your relationship into something else...something good!....but you need to participate to help it along.

You've heard of the Phoenix rising from the ashes? It CAN happen....it happened to myself and my BH. This time last year I was numb, I despised him, I had one foot out the door....I'd felt dead for years, he didn't listen to me...everything you said above I felt.

30 days faking it....not much to ask is it...it takes 21 days to form a habit (according to a book I read recently)....who knows what will happen after 30 days???? You could feel the same or you could feel entirely differently. With a spouse being so selfless towards you for 30 days you have a chance to turn this around together.

Hope you choose to try.

Thats just cruel. Please. You cannot compare.

Ok Fine I'll stay married, my family will all be happy. I'll just have to bury my feelings and move on. Maybe someday I'll find happiness.

But that is not saving the marriage. That is just not ending the marriage.

Kids are a very, very, very good reason to save the marriage (this means staying together AND fixing all the problems).
I've never understood why someone would "stay together for the kids" and want to remain unhappy.

I've tried years of faking it to see if something would come back and I don't know if I have it in me to do it anymore. I don't see how pretending you love someone is going to change anything.
No one suggests you "pretend" anything. But if you go through the motions AND stop having affairs AND do what is necessary to revive the love, it can work.
People say they are doing this but they just take this time & "pretend" and KNOW they are not going to do anything. They sit & stew about all the problems their resentment grows. If you KNOW it is going to fail (as opposed to even think it might work), then it WILL fail.

And since he decided after 5 sessions that he has solved all his issues how do I know that in 6 months he will not return to the person he was before?
This is what kills the marriage.
Either the changes one spouse are not permanent or the other spouse is not willing to reconcile because they don't see the changes or think the changes will not last.

I won't settle for ok or mediocre, there's only 1 chance in this life.
So why not take it?
Almost every study has shown that after five years, couples that remain together (and work at it) are far, far happier than those who separate/divorce.

But I can.

Wanna talk about it? - being cruel?

WAT

You're absolutely right, Win. I thought I had made some progress when I stopped seeing Bruce. I definitely did make some progress on anger, and on thinking about what I was saying. But you are so right, I have so much work to do on selfishness and controlling behavior. I'm sorry for not seeing that. It's just so hard to think straight when everything I care about hangs on a thread. But you are right.


I guess my complaints with the counselor (and with Win) are two-fold...I don't know where to start, and I find it hard to work on intimacy when I get nothing but a stone wall from Win. I need to know the steps. I guess I've never had true intimacy in my life before. I thought I did but I guess I didn't. I need to know what to do to get there. I know Win told me to discuss how I'm feeling, and I'm trying to do that more. But I feel like "intimacy" is this key word that Win wants but can't help me get to the place where I'm providing it. It's like the things I need to do to preserve this relationship are some secret I have to figure out on my own, and I can't do it on my own. I need help but I'm being asked to do it on my own. This leaves me confused and not sure what to do. I SO WANT TO GIVE HER WHAT SHE WANTS!!!! I feel like screaming sometimes because I don't know what to give and I think Win wouldn't be receptive to it anyways if I figured it out.


I so want to give this to you, Win. But I feel like if I sit back and do nothing you are gone from my life. Then, if I do anything, it's me trying to control you. I'm just trying to save the relationship. I don't know what to do...giving up just feels wrong, but you don't want me to do anything, except go back to counseling I guess. I'm ready to do whatever you want, you just have to tell me how you want things to be. I want to GIVE you the control but you just keep brooding and refusing to try. What do you want me to do in this situation?


I don't want you to settle. We had a good relationship once upon a time, and I want to get back to that place. We promised each other we would honor each other. We've done a poor job of it lately but we still have a chance to make things better. I wish you would try just a little more. I know it's hard and you feel worn out. So do I. But we haven't even really tried yet.

WAT, PLEASE! She is trying to talk about her feelings and you are just bashing. Please just stop. It does no good. I'm begging you.

****edit********

My intent was not to bash - far from it.

My intent was to relate what it's like losing a child/family and how I wish I had the opportunity you have because I've lost a child. No one can appreciate what that's like, the best you can do is hear it from someone else.

I'll leave.

I don't want to go back to that place. I don't want the relationship we once had. I'm not the same person. You want me to go back to my sweet self and I don't want that relationship. I need an equal, a partner. NOt the dominate/submissive relationship we've had forever. You can't completely change your personality. I haven't even seen you change deep down, in the last few months! You're still controlling, trying to manipulate the situation and me when I don't do what you want.

Yes, Win, you're right. I'm going to try and do better. I want to work with you. I'm sorry I tried to control the situation the last two days, I was just upset over things. I apologize.

If you would just give me some indication you were going to try, then I could stop trying to make things happen and just work with you.

And I know you're not the same person. I don't expect you to be submissive. I just want you to be faithful, and to try and let me be in your heart.

I don't want to go back to that place. I don't want the relationship we once had.
Nor should you should want to go back to that.
Obviously it didn't work then, why would it work now?

THIS is the measuring I'm talking about...

Just be loving and kind with no reward for awhile... you can do it.

Pep

How am I suppose to be loving if I dont FEEL it? HOW?