My marrige ran into trouble some 15 years ago when WH found out how easy it was to have girlfriends at work and a wife at home. He thought this was GREAT and never, ever had the slightest twinge of conscience about hiding his double life from me.

Once I finally figured it out and confronted him about five years ago, he said he stopped "the behavior that upsets you." He may have -- I really have no way of knowing -- but the basic problem remains.

He still sees NOTHING wrong with putting our marriage aside any time he's got a line on attention from other people. This can be for parties and celebrations at work with NO spouses allowed, or parties, movies and outings with friends, or trips to see his extended family.

He is happy to do all of this without me. (At work, of course, he gets FURIOUS if I even suggest their policy of excluding spouses is wrong. I am NEVER invited to anything there.) Oh, yeah, sometimes I'm invited to other things. Sometimes. He thinks these sporadic invites are enough and should keep me happy.

BUT -- yeah, a big "butt" -- I finally got sick of being ditched and ignored and having to watch how happy he was to take off for anything and everything without me. I made it a boundary of mine that since doing things separately wrecked our marriage to begin with, we should make every effort to do things together or not do them at all. I was *sure* the POJA was exactly what we needed and felt very hopeful that we had the tools to fix the damage.

But no, noooooooooooooh! Oh, no. Not in a million years. He continues to take off without me to movies, parties, etc., even though I have very specifically asked him not to. When I try to explain POJA, he shouts "THAT MEANS YOU GET TO CONTROL MY LIFE" and calls me a controlling b*tch. Trying to explain what POJA really means is worse than useless.

This man acts like he does not have the slightest comprehension of what marriage is. He keeps saying, "But I pay all the bills. Look how nice our house is." Yes, he does. Yes, it is. But all of his time and affection and emotional support goes FIRST to other people. I am supposed to be happy with leftovers. He insists he cannot understand why this is a problem.

Why am I posting this now? Although I pleaded with him not to do it, he has taken DS17 and flown across the country for five days at a wedding and family reunion. They left this morning. What is wrong with that? Nothing -- not if you have anything resembling a normal, healthy marriage. But we don't.

When your own house is burning down, is that the time to go and take care of someone else's house???

He does this again and again and again. He will ignore me and push me aside to go be Mr. Hero and Mr. Supportive to anyone and everyone else, and even though this has destroyed our marriage he goes right on doing it again and again and again.

Oh, yes, I was invited to the wedding. But there's that pesky boundary again. He is blaming ME for not going, but I have told him I will NOT go anywhere with him as long as he thinks that gives him carte blanche to keep putting our marriage on hold anytime he feels like it. Either I have a committment from him to put his OWN marriage first or I do not go anywhere with him.

He's made it clear that he would rather go without me than have to put his own marriage first. I held that boundary today, but it was a very, very bad morning and I expect it will be a very, very bad five days.

Am I making sense here? I want him to put his own marriage first instead of putting other people and other things first. I refuse to go out with him anymore as long he cannot give me a committment to put his own marriage first. Then he blames me for our marriage being so bad because "You won't go anywhere with me!"

Still with me?

I am maintaining radio silence. He and DS can leave messages, but I will not pick up either the house phone or my cell.

It may seem petty, but it hurts to know that he will go to this thing and let everyone think I am just being a b*tch by not going, and act like he has no idea why I didn't go. This is *his* family gathering. They'll believe him, not me. Blood is thicker than bullsh*t.

(I found out later that he did this at work, too, when we were both there. His girls all thought I was a cold frigid b*tch because he never talked about me and never interacted with me at work -- not if they were around. So, they all assumed poor poor WH was saddled with a nasty b*tch of a wife and had to take comfort where he could find it.)

This trip is a double nightmare because he has several brothers. Anytime there is a wedding, funeral or anything else, their mode of celebrating is to go to bars, porn shops and strip bars. My WH used to be the voice of reason among them. Not anymore. I also discovered a long secret history of strip bar visits on his business trips.

It's a wedding. That means bachelor parties. And it turns my gut to think that a man who ignores his own marriage is going to stand there like a fine upstanding citizen at a WEDDING while his own wife is alone and suffering at home.

So hit me, somebody tell me whether I handled this right or not. Yeah, I know, I deserve it because I should have moved out long ago. I stay for DS17 who has another year of school and still needs a mom.

I just wish I could be as cold-blooded as WH and not care the way he does. It's always been my downfall when it comes to this.

Mulan

Mulan,

I'm confused. I thought you had gone to a real Plan B...and separated some time ago so that you could get out of his chaos. I was unaware that you two were back together....with no conditions being met. What happened?

and why arent you worried about him exposing son to all that crap behavior???

Mulan,
I adore you; I hope you know that I adore you. You've been a source of support for me when I so desperatly needed it.

Here I hear you [censored]'n about not being part of a family reunion that you were invited to, but you made the decision not to attend yourself. I don't get it. It sounds like you would like to be there.

We can't control everything in life. We certainly can't control other people in our lives (unless you're Adolf Hitler or Atilla the HuN --- and historically that doesn't prove to be a very pretty option), but we can control our own actions.

Mulan, I feel a lot like you do sometimes, but I try not to go there anymore. I've got a life and I'm getting it back, or maybe it's getting me back. In any case, expectations of my WS only lead to major disapointments.

Mulan, I wish I could offer you mor, but it is late here and time for me to call thi day to an end.

I send you man warm hugs!

I never left, never went to a "real" Plan B. There is an in-house separation going on. I have my own room. I pretty much live in my office. I don't expect sympathy here. I chose not to move out -- not yet -- because of my son. That's why I rarely post about my own situation any more but just read and maybe try to help somebody else.

I only posted today because it's been a very hard morning.

***Here I hear you [censored]'n about not being part of a family reunion that you were invited to, but you made the decision not to attend yourself.***

Yes, I did make that decision. It is part of the boundary I set down that reads, "I must have a committment from you to put our own marriage first before I will go out with you again."

***I don't get it. It sounds like you would like to be there.***

I would like to be there -- but now without a committment from WH to put our own marriage first instead of him insisting on the right to put me and our marriage last anytime he has a line on getting attention from somebody else.

I kept the boundary. I only posted because it didn't hurt any less to watch him leave without me. Hope that makes sense.

And yes, I am very worried about DS17 being there with that outfit. I did talk to him briefly about how he was going to be the only one there with a brain, and that his uncles were not really the guys he remembered - the last time DS was at a gathering like this, he was only 9 so their behavior was different in front of him and he wasn't going out with them after hours. Also, WH's older sister and her husband will be there and they also have some sense. They would be someone DS could turn to if needed.

But mostly I did not want DS to be forced to choose between me and WH. If I had gone, it would only have been sheer misery for me to have to watch the lunacy and fight it every step of the way. DS is a lot more sensible than WH -- at least, he is now. And it could be that he will only believe what I am telling him if he sees it first-hand.

I could not stop this without a tremendous fight that would have been very hard on DS and probably would have involved a court order. Did I do the wrong thing?
Mulan
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like you boxed yourself into a corner with that one. It gives him exactly what he wants, and costs him nothing. You, on the other hand, sound angry and resentful and can't back down without losing face.

***Sounds like you boxed yourself into a corner with that one. It gives him exactly what he wants, and costs him nothing. You, on the other hand, sound angry and resentful and can't back down without losing face.***

Then please -- how *should* I have handled this boundary?
Mulan

I'll let others speak who know your plight better, but I have a general rule of thumb in all situations: never create a penalty the enforcement of which harms you more than the offender.

(((((((((Mulan)))))))))))

I know exactly how you feel. I agree with what you say and what everybody else says. You did what you did to protect yourself but it came at a high cost.

Basically, I think you've been in the foxhole for too long. Perhaps you need to reevaluate your timing to get out of this situation. I understand about your son. My son just spent his entire senior year of high school with a no-show, lying, cheating, betraying dad. I'm not sure how your WH would handle the situation but mine just checked out. Work has a higher priority than anything. Amazingly enough, probably even higher than OW. (Which probably pisses her off to no end too.) WH decided work was more important than award ceremonies where his children were honored. On graduation day, he went to an Saturday morning meeting instead of the parent breakfast. Nuff said? I got lucky and my kid had a fabulous year. No drinking, no drugs, no slipping grade, no bad behavior. We are closer than ever. Things are the same way with DD. My kids know what's appropriate for them to know and it's a lot. We support each other.

Does your son know what's going on? Is he aware of the situation? Will he think it's fair for you to postpone your changes for him? To know that you've put up with an incredibly amount of sadness, hurt and anger for him. That's a big burden on a kid. What's his situation with his dad?

I know you want to go dark on your "men" while they are gone. However, I think you should be available to your son. I think it's really important that you be available for your son. Chances are he'll see some confusing and upsetting things at this reunion. He will need to talk about it. He may get into a situation where he needs your advice. My oldest son goes to school 1500 miles away. We spend tons of time on the phone. He would have felt very isolated and alone without our conversations.

Best of luck for the weekend. Do something nice for yourself. This isn't very MB-y, but maybe you need to think about getting out. Again, ((((((((Mulan)))))))))

Thanks gg (and everyone) for your responses. I wanted to know what the opinions were regarding how I handled this. I know I need a real Plan B, but outside of that, I thought I did what I had to do. This man has walked over me for so long, always with a big grin and I'm-the-greatest-guy-in-the-world attitude, that I had to do something.

My son and I are very close. He can call my cell anytime. I am checking the voice mail periodically. On the house phone, I have the ringer turned off and the volume off on the answering machine. That way, anyone can leave a message but I will not be listening and waiting for the phone to ring. Anything to ease a little stress.

Trouble is, DS and his dad are extremely close. WH is a great dad except for what he is now teaching DS by example on how to treat women. I can only hope that DS will see through this.

I did want to go to the family reunion/wedding. It would have been real, real easy to cave in and go. But if I had, that would only give WH permission to go right back to ignoring me whenever he feels like taking off on his own. He has given me no committment to putting the marriage first and flatly refuses to POJA *anything.* I have told WH repeatedly that I will not go anywhere with him without those two things -- so, that's why I didn't go with them.

It all makes me very sad. Things did not fall apart because of anything that came up between us. Really, they didn't. It all went to hell because he insisted on his right to independent behavior even though he is supposed to be married. He refuses to give it up, even if it means getting a divorce.

I thought his marriage and family were the most important things in the world to him, but like so many others here I been forced to see that that is not the case. His right to independent behavior is the most important thing to him. And the higher up he goes on the corporate ladder, the bigger his head swells and the worse he becomes as a husband.

He made me a lot happier when he was broke and we had nothing. Now look at us. According to him, though, I can have financial support or I can have emotional support but I cannot expect both.

???

Again -- does anyone have any other ideas on how I could have handled this wedding trip?

thanks
Mulan >very, very lonely right now

Hi, Mulan.

Quote:
============================
Again -- does anyone have any other ideas on how I could have handled this wedding trip?
============================

If I recall correctly, you are a writer. Go find somewhere else to be this weekend.

In fact, I have been thinking about you, and I have a suggestion for you.

You say that you will wait for son to graduate before dumping hubby. Why not use the time to learn a few things.

For starters, consider learning all about independent behavior. Make it research for a new book - "Unmasking The Independent Woman". Go and find out first hand, just what is so great about independent behavior.

I am not talking about spite, or "showing the SOB a thing or two", I am talking about some bona fide independent behavior. Go to some seminars. Stay a day or two extra and tour wherever you are. Take short 5 day vacations all by yourself. Hook up with some mixed groups and go on tours. Get the dust off your passport and tour Europe. Take son if you like on some trips, but mostly do things independently. Hubby is of course, NOT invited.

Stop always being there waiting. That is as grabby and desperate to your husband's mind as a betrayed spouse on their knees begging the wayward spouse not to go. Stop waiting on hubby to invite you, notice you, or do with you. Stop feeding him with excuses to reject you.

If you want to get his attention, then start being independent, and learning how to conduct your life without him. Learn the difference between wanting him and needing him. Hint, you don't need him.

Again, if you decide to learn all about being independent, make sure that you are legitimately pursuing understanding. He will very likely see through anything else.

God bless,
Gimble

Oi vay. First, I'm going to say, stop second guessing yourself. Short of hopping an flight, there isn't much you can do. You did the best you can do. It might not be what everybody would have done but it's okay. If you feel like you punished yourself a bit, come keevch to us about it. It can also give you a view of what life would be like after divorce. When your S would be going places with his dad without you.

I am actually faced with a similar decision. The weekend after next, is WH's family reunion about a 12 hour drive away. I really like these people. We've done before and it's fun. This year, I've said that I'm not going if WH goes and things are no different between us. Really tough call because I sort of want to be there. Because family is one of my needs, I intend to encourage my kids to go with their dad if he goes. However, I don't think WH will tear himself away from his busy work schedule to do it.

If it had been a wedding and reunion in your family, would your H have gone?

How much does your S know? Does he see his dad as a role model? My kids have always hated how much their dad worked. And, I've told my boys that if they ever do to someone what their dad did to me, I will rip their balls off. Subtle, huh?

I think you've made the decision for emotional support. The courts can make sure you get financial support. If the guy won't negiotiate with you, there aren't many avenues open.

Every once in a while, I look around at other families, other couples and other dads and realize just how far my WH has to come to really be a part of this relationship, this family. At least, the relationship and family I visualize. Other dads work hard but make it to games. They can say 'no' to work. I see my brother and his wife and how easy they are with each other. They make breakfast together, are together every night and weekend. Both have changed jobs in recent years. They've gone from high pressure, intense position to jobs they like but let them enjoy life and each other more. People like that give us a gold standard to obtain.

I like you Mulan. Don't beat yourself up. Try to do something fun this weekend. You have done fine.

I love, love, love Gimble's suggestion. I was thinking along the same lines. It sounds like the consequence for your boundary was like biting off your nose to spite your face. Make him wonder what he is missing. Mulan I love the advice you give. When you have the opportunity to go somewhere with him go, socialize leave him in the dust, but catch his eye every now and then smile. He sounds like a social being.Go have fun, I bet his friends would say "you should join us more often." If he goes out somewhere you are not invited, you find something to do with your son. The next day when son says "Man you should have seen Mom in that Go cart. She was wild!" He'll know he missed a good time. Be a lighthouse...not a fog horn. Thats just MHO, I know there are no easy answers.

((((((((Mulan)))))))))))

Hi Gimble,
Actually, I'm way ahead of you. I've been spending a good number of weekends camped out in hotels writing. I am under contract for book #9 and it's way overdue -- the first time I've ever been late to turn one in.

Last month I went to a weekend writer's conference where I was a speaker. Stayed out there overnight at a beautiful desert resort. WH could have come out to join me, but never bothered to show up. (If he comes to my stuff I'd have to be allowed at his -- see how that works?)

WH seems to care nothing about any of this. It does not seem to make a dent. That's the problem here. He is okay with having me along at *certain things that he decides are okay for me to attend* -- like the wedding/reunion where he is now -- but anything else he seems to care nothing about.

When I disappear on the weekends, he doesn't even know where I am -- whether I'm in a hotel or with a friend or with an OM (I'm not) or whatever. He does NOT seem to care at all. Nada. Nothing. Never says anything about it.

That's a tremendous part of the problem for me. For a long, long time I thought he DID miss me when he was tied up at "work" and that he would have liked to have taken *me* to his awards dinners and such. I have learned, now, straight from his own mouth, that none of that was ever true. He was more than fine going with the office sluts instead and now that he is a big-shot Director at his Company, he says he has NO interest in changing the no-spouses policy.

Can't begin to tell ya how stupid I feel now.

I guess I was just seeing what I wanted to see. This is still a daily source of shock and pain for me to see how little he misses me when I am not with him and I don't think I will ever really get past that.

That is why I leave on the weekends -- he's in the habit of going off to movies, parties, etc. without me and CANNOT understand why this hurts me. "Can't we ever get back to NORMAL???" -- "normal" meaning he takes off without me when he feels like it, but wants me to drop everything and go (usually at the last minute) when he does happen to feel like he wants a wife around. For him, that's a "normal" relationship.

Can y'all see now why I refuse to go *anywhere* with him, much as it hurts to be alone all the time?

(Mel, I grew up in San Antonio and my daughter was born there - am I still a Texan even though that was a long time ago?)

I also spent the last two nights in a hotel since I knew he was leaving this morning and I could not stand the thought of watching him make happy trip plans in front of me with DS. I made the mistake of coming back early today -- I had the wrong time for the flight -- and when I saw both cars still at the house I honestly thought that I had finally gotten through and he was not going to leave without me.

Needless to say, that turned out to be dead wrong. That's why today is a very hard day.
Mulan

***He sounds like a social being.***

Oh, dear gods - "social being" doesn't begin to cover it. I am not nearly the extrovert he is -- few people are! -- but I always thought we complemented each other at any sort of social event. I enjoy conversation, am not afraid of strangers and can talk about a lot of subjects since I am a writer and therefore full of useless information.

When it comes to work, though, he is viciously jealous about keeping me OUT of anything and everything. I have NEVER understood this. It's as though he is afraid I might breathe in a crumb of the massive attention he gets at some event and he cannot stand the thought of that.

You know how you watch *any other* awards broadcast and the winners (whoever they are) almost always thank their families? And usually BRING them? He would rather DIE than do that. I asked him once if anyone ever thanked their families when they got some big corporate award, and he looked at me like I had Spanish moss growing out of my ears. "NO!" His success is ALL HIM. I had NOTHING WHATSOVER to do with any of it.

Honest to gods, I do not understand why. But that's the way it is. Once he started climbing the ladder of success, the higher he got the more he elbowed me off. He wants me in the box marked Home and NOWHERE ELSE.

I do not understand this kind of cruelty. I honestly don't. I often think I am dealing with a hard-core narcissist who sees other people only as sources of attention and strokes and self-esteem, since narcs are incapable of supplying their own and rely on others to fill them up.

Nothing gets through to him. Nothing. On the surface he's the greatest guy in the world, the most fun, the most outgoing. Underneath, I don't think there's anything at all. If there is, he flatly refuses to share it with me.
Mulan

2x4? Sledge hammer? Pit trap? All excellent attention-getting devices. j/k

Mulan-run! You are losing 'you' in all of this. It sounds like you are complete fed up with this narciscis (sic) He treats you like crap. It's all about HIM.

Maybe your son needs to get away from this too. He deserves at least one healthy parent and that would be you! If you leave every weekend, how are you there for him. Granted, teenagers are usually very busy with jobs and friends. Doesn't he miss you?

thinking of you....

Hi, Mulan.

Okay. So Hubby sees you as competition, and he is in an affair with himself, and with whomever decides to worship his specialness at the throne of 'HIM'. I know his type. Dethroned a few over the years :-)

Speaking of dethroned; he is writing some big checks with the ego. His type always falls the furthest, and the hardest.

Tell me more about your interactions personally and professionally, not just what you don't like. Draw a picture for me. I occasionally get something useful out of my brain <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All the best,
Gimble

Mulan -

Your husband sounds EXACTLY like my WH, so I know what you are going through. The only difference is that I could go to some things with WH - but it was events with HIS family.

I did this for years, and went out with friends to go anywhere I wanted to go. But then, WH started spending all of our money on HIS activities. There was no money left for anything I wanted to do - ever.

I finally let him know that I would not go anywhere with him, until he went somewhere I wanted to go. That didn't phase him at all. After a couple months of that, he got a girlfriend. Now they are living together and she goes everywhere he wants to go.

***Tell me more about your interactions personally and professionally, not just what you don't like. Draw a picture for me.***

Gimble -- I'm not sure what you mean. Interactions with WH, or just on my own with other people?

Believer, your story is scary but true. I hope it's not a look into the future. He sure liked me when I was a doormat who believed every word he said, and is in angry turmoil now that I'm the mouse that roared and I wouldn't believe him if he said the sky was blue in Arizona.

He *really, really* hates it that I have lost so much trust and respect for him, but refuses to do anything that would help get it back (like POJA.) Sorry, he had my trust and it is NOT my fault that it's gone -- but he sure acts like it is.

I appreciate everyone's help. I'll be hanging out here a lot this week and through the weekend. Four nights and four days to go. I usually cave in and call or leave a bunch of voice mails whenever he's gone, but this time I am determined to go the whole time without a single message of any kind.

*somebody help me!!!*
Mulan

Mulan, I've read a few of your threads and I wasn't sure what to say so I kept silent.

Now I think Im about to say something that will piss you off, but what the heck.

I'm also the mother of a 17 year old. I'm also the wife of a (former) serial adulterer. My son knew everything, even when I tried to keep it from him. He was increasingly aware over time of the pain I was in and he was BEYOND frustrated with the last incident in 2003-- the time he caught his dad in the act. I also have an 11 year old daughter who adores her father, but now must deal with loving a man who she (now) knows is only human.

What I didn't learn until 2003 was just how much it hurt my son to see me hurting. He was dying inside, wanting so much for me to leave his father so that I would have some sort of chance at happiness, but he remained quiet because he was also very aware I used my kids as an excuse to 'keep the family together'-- when it was just me not wanting to let go of my husband.

I hated the things my husband did, but unlike your husband, he treated me well in the home, which made it easier for me to swallow what was going on.

What I'm seeing is you hiding behind your son to remain in the marriage.

My son was 15 when he caught his Dad. And that year he told me he had little respect for me because I allowed myself to stay with a man who's behavior had not changed. He told me I never made his father do anything, that I just rolled over and took it while I bitched and moaned about my life.

He was right. He also told me that he didn't want our family to split apart, but he didn't want me to stay married to a man who would continue to hurt me. He practically yelled at me to do something to protect myself- to protect MY KIDS from watching me self destruct.

And I learned a lot from my son. I discussed what I wanted to happen, what my new boundaries would be and that if his father could follow those, I'd like to make one last ditch effort to save the family. But because *I* had put my son through so much, I wanted his blessing to do so, or I would not stay with his dad. My son told me he didn't believe it would work, but that I could try.

So I demanded IC for my husband before I would return home. My son and I were extremely surprised when my husband began seeing a counselor within days of my demand. After three months of this, I returned home. My list of demands weren't over though, once we moved to our next duty station, we were to start marriage counseling and I placed a few other boundaries as well. I was prepared to move to another state with the kids if it wasn't followed through with. Again, my husband made the appointments and we went to marriage counseling for several months. He followed the boundaries and POJAs and actually began to protect his marriage and his family.

My son was very proud of me- I kept my promises to both him and his sister. And my son's relationship with his dad was healed. It took two years, but they're relationship is better now than any time in my son;s entire life (and Im not exagerating).

But I had to step out from behind my kids and DO SOMETHING.

Your husband does not appear to respect you at all. And yet you are still there. He's learning nothing because he hasn't felt the sting of his actions at all. He is continuing his behavior and you are just living with it. And your son is watching. You may not think he is, but our kids know so much more than we think.