Mulan -

Well, I didn't want my marriage to end, but I'm much happier now. The only thing I miss now is the SF. But I have done more in the last 2 years, and I did in 15 years with WH. I was forced to meet my own needs, and now I do an excellent job at it.

I'll be around here a lot too. I'm working on the the divorce papers and serving him. I'm stressed about the failure of my marriage, but not that he is out of my life.

Among other things you wrote 'I recognized my X':


You are lucky, at least he pays the bills <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
(I had no even that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

Mulan, you won't change him; I think he, my X, they will never be committed to the M. They are greedy for admiration, new challenges, they spend energy too quickly and look for a new source of it...
They have no peace in themselves, nor they want to settle down; that would make them not free, trapped... Also, they don't like themselves very much, but would never admit it... insecure... above all - selfish... my way or no way...

You accept him the way he is, or leave him.

Hope I'm wrong in your case though...

PS:
I had two things prevailing to leave him.
One of them was when he took our son (2 at that time) to visit his family, for a weekend, not telling me at all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> When I complained I should had known, he said: "I decided in one minute, and you were out buying grocery, big deal!?"... (I remember waiting with lunch, then supper, all day... thought they would come from a park...)

Mojodiva

I do hear what you are saying. The reason things are so tense in the house is that I *do* stand up to WH now and have for quite some time. DS17 is very close to his dad and if anything, I fear he will buy his father's attitude that women are "crazy" and "rigid" and "controlling."

This is one reason why I must stay at home -- when I am there, I can talk to DS briefly but frankly about what is happening. Of course he knows something is terribly wrong. He knows I live in my own room. He knows I do nothing with WH anymore. I often leave on the weekends and DS knows that I do all of these things *because* I am not being respected.

He never, ever sees me "take it."

I am also very, very worried that if I do move out before DS does, WH could well bring women into the house. I will do ANYTHING to keep that from happening, at least while DS is still in high school.

And yeah, I'm still hoping that something might get through. But I see fewer and fewer signs of that. WH says he doesn't want me to leave, but refuses to do anything that might persuade me to stay.

Thanks for responding. This is why I usually don't post about myself, since my situation is so wretched and really doesn't follow MB rules the way it should. I am just clinging to whatever thread I can here to get through this weekend.

I can't do a decent Plan B, but come on, guys, I'm good on holding boundaries, ain't I? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

Ok, Im playing catch up with you, Mulan. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Im glad you didnt want to tear me a new one!

Why can't you leave with your son? Why can't you tell your H to move out?

the thing with boundaries...well,there's supposed to be a real consequence to crossing them- and your H isn't receiving any true consequences that motivate him to change. So you don't go out with him. Big whoop. that doesn't seem to bother him at all!

Please know that Im not being flippent and Im not trying to be insensitive. I think Im trying to figureout just what you are trying to 'teach' your H with your strategy? Because it doesn't seem to be working.

Hi, Mulan.

Quote:
===========================
***Tell me more about your interactions personally and professionally, not just what you don't like. Draw a picture for me.***

Gimble -- I'm not sure what you mean. Interactions with WH, or just on my own with other people?
===========================

Interactions with him alone, and with him in professional settings. Between you two.

If you are sitting and talking. How does he act toward you? Is there a specific repeatable scenario where there is a tangible paradigm shift in your interactions? What always causes HIM to get defensive. What causes him to look and act proud? What are you both proud of?

That's the kind of picture I am looking for.

All the best,
Gimble

Mulan,

Go see your horse!!!! And get some therapy.

I have had a bad couple of days too. ((Mulan))

I really understand the whole "sticking it out" thing. I am about to let H move back and try to stick it out a few more years. I am going back to school in the fall. I have my BS in Biology and intend on going back for a teaching certification. I told H this, and that I think that if things don't change, that I will be in my own (of course with kids) in a few years.

So much of you is me! I love H, but H will NOT make M a priority at all!

I just found out 2nite that he was lunching with a single female coworker in our dating years and early M years. That really hurt. A friend (one that used to put me in my place as far as my relationship with H is concerned) told me this. And I think that this friend (a He, but he is gay) knows MORE. He kept telling me that I was NOT wrong in my perceptions of H cheating!

HOW else should you handle your boundaries? I totally understand where you are coming from. I just told H the other day, that this is how our M would be if he moved back. And that it would probably happen that way.

((Mulan))

I am sorry and I really think that I feel your pain,
jls

***the thing with boundaries...well,there's supposed to be a real consequence to crossing them- and your H isn't receiving any true consequences that motivate him to change. So you don't go out with him. Big whoop. that doesn't seem to bother him at all!***

***Please know that Im not being flippent and Im not trying to be insensitive. I think Im trying to figureout just what you are trying to 'teach' your H with your strategy? Because it doesn't seem to be working.***

Well . . . yeah. It's like Plan B, I guess. It's supposed to show the WS what life will be like without you, but if they don't care, they don't care. It's a chance you take.

***Interactions with him alone, and with him in professional settings. Between you two. If you are sitting and talking. How does he act toward you? Is there a specific repeatable scenario where there is a tangible paradigm shift in your interactions?***

If it was just us in a "normal" non-work setting, usually very good. Lots of fun, lots of conversation. We had a lot in common. He was a bad one for openly flirting with waitresses and expecting a lot of attention from them, but I tried to overlook this.

In his "professional" setting? Most of the time I was absolutely not allowed. If I was -- like at the Christmas party where they actually do allow spouses - I would spend a lot of time looking at the back of his head while he and some slutty female co-manager talked together all night.

Long story short - when it's "my turn," and no other attractive single females were around (he doesn't seem to like the married ones), things were fine and we had fun. If it's work-related, or other fun females are there, I would be largely ignored or TOLD to stay away.

As I said, he puts everyone and everything first instead of putting his marriage first. He seems to think a "good" marriage is one you can ignore, while it takes care of itself until you get around to coming back to it.

***What always causes HIM to get defensive. What causes him to look and act proud?***

Same answers to both questions -- his work events. Lunches, dinners, banquets, stuff like that. I am NOT allowed. "We can't get any work done if spouses are hanging around." (retch barf - but you can sure work with helpless little sluts crying on your shoulder, can't you?)

***What are you both proud of?***

The kids. Anything to do with them. He used to go with me to events related to my writing career, but he stopped that when he realized that if he shared my events I could say I should share his. How very five-year-old. But that's what happened.

I honestly thought that once I got the work sluts pried off of him like the leeches they are, that space would open up for me and *we* would share his work events that he used to share with them. But this never happened. He swears he "doesn't do that anymore." But he still insists that spouses don't belong at anything.

Bad night, very tired. Thanks for responding.
Mulan

Hi, Mulan.

Thanks for the response.

Does he discuss his work problems with you? Has he ever?

Thanks,
Gimble

***Does he discuss his work problems with you? Has he ever?***

Some things he would, yeah. Mostly he would come home very late and grumble about how hard work is and about how "work sucks". I tried to be supportive. Then I found out that he was working late because of the lengthy breaks and lunches he was taking with selected female coworkers. To this day he insists that was okay and this was NOT NOT NOT dating -- it was "an extension of the work day." If you want to see Mulan's head explode, just mention this phrase to her at any time.

So sure, he was getting all the support he needed from his pals at work. I do NOT belong at work. He fully expects loads of admiration from me for how hard he works and the great things he does -- he is very high up in the company and regularly to China to make deals there -- but insists I do NOT belong in his work life.

Again, long story short: He will share the bad times with me, but not the good times. If there is any sort of problem or difficulty, he fully expects me to jump right in and be there for him -- but when it's time for the party and the celebration to start, he fully expects me to disappear while he shares all that with someone else (young, single, flirtatious female coworkers.) But the man cannot understand why his marriage is in the toilet and his wife is having a nervous breakdown.

Like the topic header says, he puts everyone and everything else first except his own marriage and is furiously angry that I won't go along with this. Part of the problem is that I *seemed* to go along with it for about ten years, but in reality I was being lied to, fed sh*t and kept in the dark. He's angry now that those tactics don't work any more and is desperately looking for something else that does. His life was great when he could do this. Nothing can convince him that there is another way, a better way.

I am convinced, Gimble, that my going with him to this wedding/reunion was *not* the solution here. Yeah, I am having a very very hard time at home right now and I would have at least had some fun on the trip, but the solution is not for me to go tagging along and chasing after him hoping for some crumbs of his attention when he's not too busy getting attention from other females. The solution, IMHO, was for him to put his own marriage first -- and I will not settle for anything less.

Yeah, I'm a wreck and I'm miserable and I'm lonely and from time to time I'm looking at the bottles of pills that I have, but at least I didn't go running after some man who clearly doesn't want me in a desperate bid to get a little attention. I'm pathetic, yes, but even I am not *that* pathetic. A few years ago I would have -- but not this time.

Thanks for answering - I gotta get to work now or I'll be fired from both my jobs -
Mulan

Hi, Mulan.

The pills don't contain the answer to your problems.

I will get back to you later on this evening to discuss some things with you.

Let me ask you this. Are you a believer? And, no, I have no intention of preaching to you. I wouldn't know how to anyway :-)

All the best,
Gimble

A "believer," as in a Christian? Well, not entirely. Some nice ideas, though. Fire away.
Mulan

Mulan-
If your description of him are accurate and not tinged by anger and our own BS anger-fog...he is no good for you.

This isn't a man who's going to feed your soul.

Honestly, you are so much better off without the man you describe.

I'd call a lawyer.

Hi, Mulan.

I hope you are feeling a bit better.

Here is a link to a post that I wrote to JenniJ's husband. He is/was (status unknown) a serial cheater. He is very similar to your husband.

From what you have written, your hubby appears to be a "grass is greener" type. He likes to think of himself as a real player, but his insecurities drive him to always achieve, and at some point he will take on responsibilities beyond his capabilities. That is when he will fall.

Please read this post by me, and the whole thread as well. I am interested to know if you think that your husband is similar to Jenni's.

After that, I would like to discuss your options if you are up to it.

All the best,
Gimble

Hi Mulan,

I have followed your threads a loooong time now and posted to you loooong ago too.And I just want to ask: what do you expect to change after living like this all this time? Your WH is no closer to being the kind of man you need and want than years ago.HE is living how he wants,period.The fact is that the home situation is as is because you have chosen to be a part of the way it runs.I know you keep saying you are staying for your son and I am sure you have valid concerns regarding him but on the contrary,I don't see it as being in the best interest for your DS.JMHO.You can talk with him and hope that he sees what your WH is doing as wrong but he is learning,absorbing everything that is going on at home.Two ships passing in the night is not a healthy relationship to show your DS.Is there any passion or love between you and your WH that he witnesses? Care? Respect? What could you not do with DS that would also show him what boundaries are and deceny from another place,not being in the same home? I am doing it even though my STBXWH is now living in another country.

You are miserable and a wreck because WH is still pulling the same shtick out of his pocket.You know all this already.I even remember talking to you about before.You give very helpful advice Mulan and I do appreciate how hard it must be for you,as it is for all of us here,but what I see is a choice that was made and it doesn't appear to be working for you.I think you deserve better and the question for me is: what is holding you back?

{{Mulan}}

O

Is he similar? Not really, in that my WH is so amazingly arrogant that he would NEVER, EVER admit he did something wrong. He just won't. If he has to say it was wrong to take long private lunches with female co-workers, that would be the same as saying he managed his career wrong. He will NEVER do that. I am dealing with amazing arrogance that only gets worse the higher up he gets on the corporate ladder.

Is he cheating right now? I have no way of knowing. We have been separated in house for over a year now. He works with the same kind of trashy females that he always did. He goes on very frequent business trips, some to China. He has a long history of secret porn and strip-bar visits. I have no access to his work e-mail or voice mail.

You do the math. I already have.

He likes having a wife. He just doesn't want the bother of being a full-time husband. He sees no reason why that should be a problem for me. He pays the bills and "always comes home to me at the end of the day." He's angry and frustrated that that's not enough. Asking to use POJA for things got me called a "controlling b*tch."

That's it in a nutshell.

***Have you considered upping the ante?

How about a 6 month separation while he goes through intensive counseling to address his character issues.

Then you set a real boundary that you can enforce - if he does it again, the marriage is over. No more chances.

I believe that you are going to have to give your stipulations some teeth before you see real change.***

This is the part of your posting that jumped out at me. I know that I would have to leave, disappear, for a good long time before it *might* have any effect on him. He thinks I will always be here and if he just rides out the storm eventually he can convince me to go back to a part-time marriage and be okay. I will NEVER do that.

I'm not really as crazy as I sound. We had a great marriage for the first ten years. Then, two things happened:
1) He started climbing the corporate ladder and becoming a Big Shot.
2) He met his first office slut and he found out how easy it was to live a double life.
Both of those things went straight to his head, and it's been downhill ever since.

Thanks for responding. I just hate it that my son has this man for a role model when it comes to women. WH did not start out this way and I never, ever thought he would become so monstrously arrogant and selfish -- but who ever expects this kind of crap?

Edited to add: Octobergirl, thanks for posting. I am coming to the conclusion that I will have no choice but to leave. This man always says he "doesn't want to hurt me," but he knows EXACTLY what will hurt me -- bringing things like cigars and alcohol into the house (*major* triggers)* ignoring me, going out without me, and disappearing on me. He goes right on doing all this when he knows full well the effect it will have. I have tried all the other options I can think of. Leaving looks like it's the only one left.

Thanks again
Mulan

Just ran across this, and it actually made me laugh -- something I haven't done in days.

"Some people are just like Slinkies. They aren't good for anything, but they do bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs."

Ah, dark humor. My favorite kind.
Mulan

That's funny...I don't care who you are! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

YOu have been hoeing a REALLY tough row...do something nice for yourself this weekend...

Take Care,

WNB

((((((((Mulan)))))) Keep posting all weekend. Use us to blow off steam.

I like the Slinky joke. You also watch Slinkies go through amazing contortions. Eventually, they get so twisted up that you throw them away. Well, that's what happens to my Slinkies anyway.

I also think that if we can't laugh then we might as well give up.

Have you booked a massage for the weekend?

Hi, Mulan.

Quote:
===========================
Is he similar? Not really, in that my WH is so amazingly arrogant that he would NEVER, EVER admit he did something wrong.
===========================

That just means that he hasn't fallen yet. I think that the two of them are remarkably similar.

It is obvious that you are very angry with your husband. That is completely understandable. What you need to do in your situation, is get past the focus on hubby and get your mind clear. That means that you need to lose the anger and start working on the resentment so that an effective plan can be put in place to address the issues in your marriage.

I am not blaming you, or sidestepping your husbands issues. He IS good and truly messed up. The thing is, we have to get you functional on a level that allows you to provide the intrepidity needed to win the fight.

That won't happen with you talking about pill bottles, or exuding tangible levels of resentment and anger toward your husband.

I am not telling you that I have answers for you. I am telling you that I am familiar with your husband's type, and I am willing to work with you on tackling the issues in your situation. Before any of that can take place, you will have to decide what you want to do, and how far you are willing to go.

If you want to just let it drop or let him go, there is no shame in that.

If you decide that you want to deal with a serial cheater/player wannabe, be prepared to lose your desire to control the situation right off the bat.

Tough choice for you.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble,
Oh, you bet I'm beyond angry. That's why, a few months ago, I finally withdrew just as much as I could while still living in the house. I told him very, very plainly that I needed two things from him:

1) STOP GOING OUT TO SOCIAL EVENTS WITHOUT ME. His going off and having fun without me is what started this mess in the first place.

2) Use POJA to work out the details of #1.

He refused both of these. Says the POJA is "controlling" and that he can't do his job unless he is free to go to any and all of the social events that they don't have.

You read right -- for a while, he had me believing him when he said he would not go to work-related social events without me. I felt better. Then, much later, I found out that in his mind they don't *have* social events at work. It's all *work*, see, even if a Normal person would call it a party or a date.

Head . . . exploding . . .

So, for obvious reasons, I finally withdrew and detached as much as I could. I simply stopped going to *anything* with him, even to the grocery store, as long as he refused to offer me the basic respect of #1 and #2 above.

After a while, when he would ask and I kept refusing, he started going off without me to movies, parties, and everything else. Well, no surprise there. It was extremely painful to be reminded again and again and again that he'd rather go without me than have to lower himself to offer me respect and courtesy, but there we are. I can't control him and I well understand that.

I assumed his going off without me was just his way of rubbing it in my face that he'll do whatever he damn well pleases whether I like it or not, and was my "punishment" for daring to try to "control" him with something like POJA.

I have virtually no interaction with him anymore unless it's a fight. He absolutely knows what will set me off -- his disappearing to go to movies, parties, and trips without me; bringing cigars and alcohol into the house; and ignoring me.

Well, he's been doing all of these things in spades for the last few months, culminating in this trip he's on now. I have a question about it that I have, frankly, been afraid to entertain because it always sounded too much like wishful thinking.

Is it possible he's pulling all this crap just to get attention out of me, because I give him virtually no attention any other time?

I guess that sounds stoopit. But as I said, it just sounds too easy and too much like wishful thinking.

If I thought being nice and attentive to him would help, believe me, I would. But I've done that before. All it did was make him think things were "normal" again, and he would go right back to ignoring me, disregarding me and being a part-time husband.

If he really wants my attention now, why not be the noble, honorable man he insists he is, stop ditching me, and at least *try* using POJA? Why resort to tormenting me until I explode or break down crying?

Unless it's because even that is better than saying "I'm sorry" and "I was wrong" -- ?

Remember, we are dealing with one arrogant SOB here. And he is *proud* of being arrogant. (Does it get any more arrogant than that?)

Okay, fire away . . .
Mulan