Chris,

Although I usually agree in sticking to the plans, AD's sitch is different in that he can not do a full Plan B at this time because his wife is only 28 YO's, was a child of wartime who's entire family was murdered in front of her and then adopted out to a mother who was extremely, violently abusive.

She lacks the emotional resourses to act motherly in times of stress. And has demonstrated this with her DD when she is agitated.

And unless he is willing to take custody of ( even if he could) a Plan B might harm his daughter.

His wife is not of our culture and not comfortable speaking english.

She has NO support, and no family here.

Are you aware of this? And do you still think Plan B is advisable in his sitch?

I think a 180 and showing his wife the consequences of her choice to be single, while still being able to maintain reasonable control and knowledge of his wifes emotional state while his little girl is with her is more important than saving his marriage at this time.

And if his WW can feel his absence enough through AD's plan, she may change or may not. But she is being slowly acclomated to a single life, while he is able to keep a watchful eye over things.

I have to agree with AD on his plan, although I agree with you on letting the tracking devices go, and not spying as he should be detaching and actually preparing himself for divorce, should it happen that way.

Edited to add:

And the boundaries, that is what you need to be enforcing AD. This is a good time for you to enforce boundaries and possibly change the dynamics of your relationship with her. She lack respect for you, so this should be an integral part of your plan. And I'm thinking it is.

AD,
I’m feeling frisky so here’s the skinny. You ain’t doin’ no plan B anyway so you might as well do something to change the pace of how things are going. Now putting my own travails aside ‘cause my sitch don’t count, (that’s because keeping my WW isn’t my problemo…I’m quite sure that being kept is what she wants…being kept by whom is the problemo LOL but be that as it may…) you keeping your WW would be relatively easy I would suspect. It’s really only a question of technique after all.

But here’s the thing, an effective 180 is not something that you implement from a schematic…it’s a plan that requires flexibility and a willingness to do the unexpected…the unusale the different. It is not following a basic list of criteria. It is scoping the changes required and understanding the timing required to make the changes effective.

I.e. you do something out of character…she notices…comes to expect it…you do the direct opposite…you do a 180! Get it? This is an ever changing and evolving process by which you imaginatively work to suck your WW back in…by creating and recreating new persona until she is so caught up in trying to find level of comfort from which to deal with you that she can’t concentrate on doing anything else.

And in the process, you deliver to her the provider of her emotional needs,…that being you. This is a funky take control kind of pro-active process that is almost fun to deliver. It allows you to do the things you would never have the nerve to normally do…it frees you to act out, be outrageous,…to be fun and to poke fun…and the best part is that it works…but like anything else that works…it takes work!

You want to take a shot I can help you get there but you’re going to have to give yourself up to it. Let me know and we can do some things that will rock your WWs little world. Just say when.
Coach

Don't like Plan B? Not a problem. But don't "sorta" implement it.
I understand MB is not the only way to do things.

However, you need to take actions which will positively affect your relationship & stop actions which will hurt your relationship (regardless of what she does).
Set your own boundaries & stick to them.

Chris, Coach, Weaver,

I've found the best way to get attention around here at MB is to stubbornly refuse to do what people want me to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I don't know what that has to do with real life, but it's an observation about the MB forum at least.

Now that I've induced you folks to give me a piece of your mind, I want to respond to your contributions.

Weaver,

Thank you for coming to my defense. It's nice to know you are on my side. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (It's also nice to know that you're not off chasing a snake through the woods in the dark, if you know what I mean.) I really don't mind Chris putting the screws to me if that's what he wants. I'll stand my ground if I need to, and I'll learn something if there's something to learn from him.

My W is not is such a bad state as I have perhaps led you to believe. She has lived in the US of A for almost 9 years now. Her command of the English language is excellent. Her attachment to communication in Russian is mostly reserved for OM. She speaks English to me and to our child. In less than a month from today, if all goes well, she will be a US citizen.

If I understand you correctly, Weaver, you would disapprove of the tracking - in "usual" cases and only regard them as OK in view of WW's special instabilities. I track her only to know if/when she visits OM. I've learned a few other things in the course of that, but nothing of great import.

DD is not in any significant danger with WW, or I would not have moved out of the house leaving DD there - nor would I have consistently told my W that I will not pursue primary custody. I do not want to destroy my W and I believe she usually is a good Mom. She certainly is committed to being so. Maybe I have a blind spot there, but I don't think so.

Chris,

You seem to demand a black and white definition of "Plan B". Something either is or is not Plan B. So, if it makes you feel better, I will not say that I'm doing Plan B. I perfectly well know what it is.

I look at a thing and try to reduce it to it's basic principles rather than an exact sequence of steps.

The essential part of Plan B is to induce a change in the WS - by withdrawing from the active filling of his/her EN's - leading to him/her missing the BS and realizing that he/she cannot have both the OP and the marriage, forcing a choice. In order to realize that a choice is both neccesary and possible, the "Plan B letter" is often used to remind the WS that it is still possible to rebuild the marriage, but only if there is a complete break from the OP.

While doing that, it also has the effect of allowing the BS to get a grip on life without the drama etc. associated with the WS's actions.

If Plan B means NC absolute, then it is, as I have always believed, impractical in marriages with young children. My DD is not capable of communication at a level which would allow me to interact with her without my WW in the loop. I have to know what's going on with my child - and I also have to communicate with my wife what I have observed as a parent. This is no different than the situation would be post-D. If we had no children, then NC would be practical and, I'm sure, quite effective.

At this point I could crank up a discussion that I've wanted to start on the MB forum for awhile, but I'll resist. But to give a taste of it, I will make the observation that what the BS does in Plan B is almost the same as the WS is supposed to do when making a break from the A - except for the difference in the letters. In breaking the A, the WS is to send a "NC letter", which is carefully constructed to give the affair partner no hope of a continued relationship. In the "Plan B" letter, on the other hand, the hope and certainty of a future loving relationship is extended to the WS. Other than those differences, NC is NC - and the NC effect in the immediate time-frame is that the person who has been derived of contact with a loved one will miss the loved one - and attempt to reestablish contact - whether it is a spouse or affair partner. (This is classic attachment behaviour if you are into that sort of thing.) So, if those two uses of NC have different effects, the difference must be in the letters. But if the NC letter to the affair partner is countermanded by back-channel communication - to the effect that the NC letter was not sincere, but only sent to appease the spouse, then the difference narrows. Further thoughts down that track would be interesting to discuss on another thread.

Coach,

I'm touched that you would take the time to extend a helping hand, when you yourself have been deluged with such a betrayal and load of pain that would break most men. I'll certainly consider your offer and I'll raise a flag for you when I'm ready for you to design a program for me. I certainly know that if I don't want a D, I don't have to D. I know how to prevent my W from D'ing me. However, I do not want a captive nor do I want a frightened, broken woman - who will harbor a seething resentment toward me. She has told me plainly on more than one occation that if I contest custody, she does not want a D. She certainly did not want me to move out of the house. I have been the one pushing for D since March of this year.

I know that my W is a person easily pushed into a state of disequilibrium. I'm not sure that I want to use that. You were surprised by your W's recent attack on you. I have been physically attacked by my W in the past, though I think that is increasingly unlikely now. I do not fear it. Suicide is something that is a possible outcome of overloading her coping mechanisms. I don't want to go near there. I'm sure you're not suggesting that sort of overload, but I just wanted to mention that it is something "we" would have to work around if we were to team up (you and I) to solve my problem. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

OK, this is already way too long. (and where is 2Long anyway?)

I'll be back to edit, as always. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-AD

Update:

DD is here sleeping. I ate at WW's house when I stopped by to pick up DD. It was a "grab the grub" kind of meal, about as far from a romantic dinner as one could go. I don't feel that I was significantly filling any EN's of WW in eating what she cooked. She didn't even sit down at the table with me. I was in the house less than a half hour - and our "discussion" centered on the logistics of DD's weekend with me.

WW called thrice this evening to check up on DD - the last of those was a pre-agreed "goodnight" call. The middle one was to remind me to give DD her antibiotics (which reminder I needed, as I had forgotten). The first was more-or-less saying "I'm back from the store. Did DD need me while I was out?"

-AD

Reading back over my reponse to each of you, I see that I'm not doing a very good job of keeping the door open for dialog with you. I'm sorry about that. It's a bad habit of mine. I'm too tired to answer differently right now, but it's a skill that I want to develop.

-AD

Hey AD:

I've been thinking (don't say "with what?"!) about your sitch, my sitch, Aphelion's sitch and coach's sitch. That's 4 sitches.

Not very different. Not particularly similar.

And we're different BSs, 2. But I sense an interesting overtone 2 all 4 of our "approaches" 2 our peculiar sitches that I find somewhat interesting.

We're dealing with LTAs, more or less, depending on who's sitch. We're living with varying depths of ongoing betrayal, and wondering why we're doing that! (and being questioned, sometimes harshly FOR doing that). Well, currently coach isn't "living with" the betrayal, but that's not the point I'm finding interesting.

I find it interesting that we've got such different opinions about snooping and verification. Appy and I find it kind of distasteful, though I have at least done it a few times, just 2 be certain that my sense of unease isn't all in my mind. You believe in spying techniques, "2 gather evidence" in case your decide 2 reconcile. And coach believes in verification and accountability.

I've realized a long time ago that I didn't need 2 snoop 2 know that things weren't "right" between us, so when I found those emails last month I wasn't very surprised, just hurt. But something coach said, that I believe is absolutely "true" and telling about these "late d-days", really struck a chord with me yes2rday:

"2. Did my wife have sex with the Prof that night? Who cares?! How much worse could that last and final act of betrayal make the situation?"

Without a mu2ual desire for reconciliation, complete disclosure, and a POJA'd plan for the fu2re, it really doesn't matter a hill of beans, or the flatulence that hill is capable of producing, what the WS is or isn't doing behind our backs (except that our attachment, even BS fog, makes it HURT). What does matter is what we do and think about it. We hear a lot about "letting go", and Spacecase is fond of elaborating on that, saying "letting go of the need for a particular outcome" and "accepting what IS". But we can't do that and spy at the same time. GPS tracking, voice recording, keylogging - these are not acts of "letting go" or accepting our WS' actions as what they are right now.

I've been thinking a lot, since last night, of my tendency 2 be manipulated by the apparent kindness my W does show me - like buying my favorite barley soda for me yes2rday (which is now in the fridge at her OOSP, just waiting for me 2 drive the 500 miles 2 tip a few in grati2de). She's a master at manipulation, right? ...well, no. I'm a master at being baited by these crumbs of affection.

2 me, it doesn't matter that it just so happens that my W is still in contact with RM, and would like 2 remain so. What matters is that she can't, or won't, make the choice 2 try 2 have her ENs met within our marriage (and so must keep restating that she "divorced me" years ago, emotionally). I don't need 2 snoop in order 2 verify that she's still emotionally DV'd from me. And even though she says (and does demonstrate) that she's trying 2 "build something special between us and stop living in the past", she's not succeeding at it because she's "emotionally unavailable" 2 me (and I'm similarly guilty, mostly out of fear of being hurt):

"The deepest level of availability is what we call conscious emotional availability, where the capacity to be fully present and mindful of your own emotional process, as well as your partner's, is present most of the time. In this level, the capacity for being emotionally available is present, and there is a strong willingness to use that capacity. Authentic feelings are acknowledged and communicated on a consistent basis, whether they are positive or negative. Joy and bliss can comfortably co-exist with sadness and despair, for there is a commitment to sharing the truth of one’s experiences with one’s partner." -Excerpted from: http://www.iloveulove.com/psychology/psy...lly%20Available

Now, it's been an extremely long time since ol' 2long has felt that kind of connection in his ol' lifetime, believe you me. And many times I've wanted 2 just run away from that fact. But I can't. I'll take it with me if I do.

But my whole internal reaction 2 yours, Aphelion's, coach's, and my sitches lately has been revealing 2 me. Remember when I said this on coach's thread recently?:

"You know what this shows?

All of it: Letters stating boundaries, scheduled phone calls, spyware, GPS trackers, voice recorders, affairs, "just friends", secrecy, privacy, ethics, morality, Christianity...

The only thing that does matter is action."

And what is that action? I think it's figuring out what we ourselves want 2 do, getting 2 know ourselves, trusting ourselves, loving ourselves, and eschewing our chosen behaviors, ethics, and morality in the way we interact with our WSs or anyone around us for that matter.

Coach's agreement with his W for accountability didn't protect the M from another A because she didn't want 2 commit - and a WS not willing 2 commit 2 the M can simply go underground. Mine sure did.

But I've not felt that there WAS a recommitment in our M, and I suspect coach didn't either (it shows in his posts 2 me before his recent d-day). You obviously don't, though your W clearly depends on you more than she realizes (but that's not commitment). And Aphelion doesn't either.

So is snooping necessary? I don't think so, at least for the BS with new-found in2ition for sensing the disconnect and withdrawl that may indicate an A but certainly indicates a lack of true commitment.

Is accounability necessary? I don't think even this is, because without commitment it's easy enough for a WS 2 find ways 2 keep their 2nd life secret if they want 2.

So, what's "necessary" is letting go and detaching with love. I'm going 2 keep doing that for as long as I can and see if we can or want 2 recommit or DV.

-ol' 2long

2long,

That was the most insightful, profound post I have read of yours.

It touched me to the core, and verbalized where I had found peace yesterday in my own mind and heart.

Still hurts like hell, but letting go will free me and allow me to offer love where ever it may be needed. Myself, my DD, my friends and family, and to serve humanity.

You cannot give of yourself when you are caught up in the drama and chaos of trying to control another, or the outcome.

Obsession is a very dark place to be. I'm thankful that I have no choice but to let go, and that I am completely set free, by him. I think it was necessary, even if he had less than the nobleist reasons to do what he did.

If you are so caught up that you are questioning your own sanity, then yes you must get the truth (facts) of an affair, but past that point I believe it is unproductive.

And you are right, you know things are not right. You know they have emotionally left. And you will know when they return for real.

I am glad you posted that 2long.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AD,

I am glad your WW is in a better emotional place, and able to live more independently from you, with your DD than I thought.

u seem to demand a black and white definition of "Plan B". Something either is or is not Plan B. So, if it makes you feel better, I will not say that I'm doing Plan B. I perfectly well know what it is.
Uh, Plan B does have a definition. It’s not mine.
If someone is on MB and talking about Plan B, then I would expect them to know what it is (or ask about it).

The essential part of Plan B is to induce a change in the WS
Completely wrong.
The essential part of Plan B is for YOU to withdraw from the situation.
You (should) have already tried everything in Plan A to make changes in yourself and to induce changes in the ws.

If Plan B means NC absolute, then it is, as I have always believed, impractical in marriages with young children.
Nowhere does it say absolute no contact.
It can be worked with small children, but some people think if there are small children, they need to have breakfast or go to the movies with the ws once in a while.
And I don't believe anyone should do Plan B until they have had at least a few sessions with a professional counselor. If they are at the stage of even considering Plan B, the relationship is pretty far whacked out.

You posted to weaver;
If I understand you correctly, Weaver, you would disapprove of the tracking - in "usual" cases and only regard them as OK in view of WW's special instabilities.
Actually, weaver posted, "I have to agree with AD on his plan, although I agree with you" (Chris) "on letting the tracking devices go, and not spying as he should be detaching and actually preparing himself for divorce, should it happen that way."

Weaver,
Thank you for coming to my defense. It's nice to know you are on my side. (It's also nice to know that you're not off chasing a snake through the woods in the dark, if you know what I mean.) I really don't mind Chris putting the screws to me if that's what he wants. I'll stand my ground if I need to,
Hey, I’m on your side too!
I’m not badgering you ‘cause I’m bored. I do want to help.

and I'll learn something if there's something to learn from him.
That’s all I can ask/hope.
Take or leave what you want.

MB principles can and do save marriages. So do other "programs" and so do people doing it on their own.
A marriage gets into trouble because the couple does not know how relationships work. When it goes bad, they somehow now "know" exactly what to do. L

Get back to basics.
Stop the LBs, stop the "manipulating" games, stop the dishonesty. (sounds like MB?)
If you do this, it may not save the marriage. However, it will definitely NOT contribute anymore friction by poor actions on your part.
Nothing may save the marriage.

Posted by weaver;
his wife is only 28 YO's, was a child of wartime who's entire family was murdered in front of her and then adopted out to a mother who was extremely, violently abusive.
With your wife having this in her life, AND having to deal with her affair(s), you both have definitely had professional counseling, correct?

weaver:

Thanks! I didn't used 2 be sure of what I was telling myself half the time, but now I know it's MY truth, at least. Others' mileage may vary.

Chris, you're right and AD needs 2 acknowledge that he isn't following the MB plans, but it isn't "required" that he do so - just as long as he recognizes the self-induced greater complexity of recovering from a S's A that way. Remember Lostva? Non-standard approach, but it "worked."

I don't believe AD and his W have gone 2 counceling. I think AD himself posted above that he bailed on an appointment with SH because he was 15 minutes late.

AD: SH *is* "costly", but I believe he's efficient. I only did one session with him myself, but I could tell - by comparison to others I've counseled and coached with in the past 3 years - that he's very efficient.

It would NOT be a waste of money if you worked with him. On the contrary, he might be the only one who could help you "customize" a plan that might work for YOU.

Think about it.

-ol' 2long

AD, 2long and other members of the lonely hearts club, I think that at times we need to really reaquaint ourselves with what's important...because its when we don't...that's when we loose our way.

It's obvious to all of us that knowing, deciding or being sure as to where one wants to end up is the first step to getting there...but JUST the first step and nothing more.

Now I know this sounds simple but haven't we all found that it's often those things that are most simple that we tend to over look...as if that which is obvious is also automatic?

But I guess it's natural in that it's on how we decide to get where we're going that we spend the most time and attention...maybe because getting where we want to go is never easy...

...But knowing where we want to end up is possibly not the most important thing of all. That's becausw it's the process of getting there that is always center stage.

I'ts in the process, that we begin to mature. We learn that we some times have to stop, or are stopped...That there are times we must go back and begin all over again...And that sometimes we get so side tracked that we simply forget...We forget where it is we want to end up being...

Some times we confuse ourselves as to what compromises we need make...along the way...and in the process...and in so doing...we sometimes loose our ability to establish value...as if their is no cost to us,...when we all know that there always costs...always.

...But the saving grace for me...the element with in...that which has always pushed me, helped me, suported me in my effort to continue on...is that I've discoverd how valuable the journey in of itself, really is...

We learn along the way that how we make the journey, what we learn in the process, who we become...that these things are just as important as getting to where we want to go?

In fact, and as for myself...I've come to understand that it's in making the trip...that I find value in life...For me, it's all about how well I make the journey...because that's what determines who I will end up being...and to me...nothing matters more...even if I do have to remind myself of this simple truth from time to time...

And so if we manage to love along the way but still end up alone at the end of our journey...so what?...does that mean we've failed? I don't believe so...to me it is and will always be about doing it well...loving well...living with integrity and decency...lending one's dignity to those we meat along the way...because in doing it well...no matter what the task...their is always success...but even more important...there is never failure. And guys, both of you and so many others around here...you always seem to do it well...
Coach

Coach:

I won't speak for AD (hopefully, he's having a good day with his DD), but I will just say: Thank you.

Words 2 live by and ponder.

best,
-ol' 2long

I see you folks have been busy.

I've just got a minute, but I'll be back.

-AD

2Long,

I appologise if I'm responding too briefly to such a thoughtful post as you have contributed here. (I'm responding to the first one only).

I think you are right about this in general except that some of us are more perceptive than others - and events develop at different paces in different cases. My W, in particular, I think, has poor impulse control. She may commit to NC, but in a moment of anger, will run to OM - either to "punish" me for not giving her what she wanted, or, feeling rejected, seeking comfort from his always-available attention.

For a long time, I thought that I "knew" when she was not in contact with OM - and perhaps I was correct in my "feel" of this. But, my W is such a complex person that I could not say that any particular disturbance in her equilibrium was or was not connected with resumed or continued contact with OM.

As some people might count it, I have been through a number of false recoveries. So that now, I will regard anything that looks like recovery as pseudo-recovery until long experience proves otherwise.

There was a year or more, for example, during which I believe there was no contact. From my perspective within that year, the problem seemed to be solved. It was during this year that my w went through pregnancy and childbirth. She herself has said that having entered into the PG state, she felt that she had committed to me and to our marriage. But, 3 months after our child was born, she initiated contact with OM again - by email initially, and perhaps by phone later.

I don't want to have another year of pseudo-recovery. But, would surveilance have told me anything then? No. And, I was watching the email then - and detected the first re-contacts.

Why did it "happen"? Or taking a less passive view, what motivated my W to re-establish contact after a year? My understanding is that she was feeling depressed and isolated after the birth - and whatever I was doing was not enough to "make her happy". Consequently, she went back to "the drug".

But, of course, OM didn't have to deal with all the day-to-day needs of a new mother facing her insecurities and struggling with the physical load of sleep-deprivation and recovery from C-section. He just had to talk to her, listen to her. That's all she expected from him. I did that too, but from me, she expected solutions. I had to fix whatever unhappyness - whatever fatigue - whatever insecurity or fear she might have - and I could not. OM couldn't either, but it was not required of him.

Well, this was supposed to be brief, and it was supposed to be about 2Long's excellent post, but I've gotten off track and DD is sitting on my lap looking for some kind of interesting interaction with me so I'd better post, sign off and focus (as Coach reminded us) on the real here-and-now important stuff. There's a minor-league baseball game starting in an hour and I think DD and I will be there. Why not? She might find it boring, but then again, it might turn out nicely.

I'll be back (and I'm not Ahnold)

-AD

2Long (and company),

Your post has so many rich themes in it, that I have to reply to it with 10 times as many words. Perhaps that means we are early in the discussion. It could mean something else, but I'll let you tell me about it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You say “Letting go is incompatible with spying”.

I disagree, but I guess it depends on what you mean by letting go. Letting go of the need to control the outcome is one thing, but letting go of your right to choose is another. And if I am to choose, I must have some information on which to base my choice. If I am to choose, am I to chose in the same way that we are constantly reminded is the downfall of our democracy – that is, the voter who fails to inform himself of the issues? Should I say “I don’t care what the facts are, but I’m going to make my choice without knowing?” I don’t think that would make me a good husband and father any more than it makes me a good citizen.

For many people, it might not matter whether or not their spouse is having an A – as long as the spouse behaves as if he/she is committed to the marriage. This parallels the “don’t ask” theory re, for example, drug use of employees. By that theory, if an employee is doing his/her job well, then nobody cares if they take whatever controlled substances while they are away from the office – and if they are not doing their job well, it doesn’t matter what a great guy and absolute saint they are either. It’s an appealing approach except for some jobs – say airline pilot, in which the consequences of the one occasion when the drug-use does impact the job – are so damaging, that it would be irresponsible to wait for that to happen before dismissing the employee.

Being a spouse is, I think, more like being an airline pilot than being a waste-basket-emptier. It’s a position in which some kinds of errors of Eros have disastrous consequences. So, in the same way that random drug tests are appropriate for pilots, random infidelity tests are appropriate in marriage. And in the same way as many people vehemently oppose – and express outrage - with mandatory drug tests, many would oppose what I consider to be a necessary part of marriage. But, I’m guessing that if they are riding on the plane of an airline who last week had a stoned pilot almost kill a bunch of folks, they might have a different view.

And finally, for me, the simple fact that my W is not getting along well with me - or is mean to me - or neglects me - or abuses me (moderately) - or refuses to sleep with me, would not move me to divorce her. But, the fact of an ongoing A - after commitments have been pretended to, would. This is, in part, derived from my particular religious views - and from my commitment to my vows - which were especially constructed to be extra-heavy-duty.

Oh and thanks again for your thoughtful and respectful posts on this issue. It is so nice to be able to disagree respectfully. I don't want to miss the opportunity to thank you for this rare gift.

-AD

Coach,

What can I say? Coming from you, today, this is .... <no words>

I think I can apply some of that to my life.

-AD

2Long,

I finally got to the bottom of it (your post) and cross-referenced it with the "waffle" post over on your thread.

Is it possible, that what you're saying is that you are resigned to being who you are - that you love your wife - even though she has treated you cruelly - even though she has betrayed you and hurt you deeply, that you love her enough to say that you willingly forfeit your possible life without her?

That's cool! (if that's what you mean)

ulove rocks!

Has anybody told you the story of Hoseah?

Honestly, I think that is a choice that a person can make, and if they make it with open eyes, I think it can "work". I've been thinking about that myself.

I could say to W ...

"Come move in over here. Forget the apartment search. You can have your own room. I don't plan to sleep with you. I will provide for you, take care of you, and remain faithful to you. I will give you an allowance, but no access to my finances in general. I won't be your slave. I will have my own interests and friends (no women), which will be largely separate from yours. I will make most decisions without consulting you. We will go to church together as a family. We will do parenting things together, but if we travel together, I'll have my own bed. I will expect you to take care of the house, cooking and grocery shopping. I will expect you to keep your affairs discrete and do nothing to disrupt the smooth flow of the household. I'll be be in my room (which is off-limits to you), outdoors, or out in my shop most of the time that I'm at home. Don't bother me except for "Dad" things."

Am I a baby that I have to have somebody love me? Maybe not.

-AD

Well, I dropped DD off at her Mom's door this morning at 7:06am - 6 minutes late. I left breakfast uneaten at home - because I was afraid of being late, but she was asleep when we came anyway. She gave me a dirty look and closed the door.

The dirty look was precipitated by my firm line on the visitation. W begged me repeatedly to bring DD back on Sunday night - even offered that I could come over and do the bedtime thing - put DD to bed there. I said "no" each time, but still on Sunday night, she called and said "when are you coming?". I replied "7 o'clock". "But it's already past 7", said she. "7 AM", I replied. She whined, cried, said "I hate you". etc. Then she said "But DD doesn't even have her PJ's". "Of course she does - in her backpack", I replied. "No, I took it with me when I was there after church", she said. Sneaky lady.

Backing up a day, WW called Saturday and asked for an hour with DD. I agree and told her to come at 5pm. She came at 3. I left them alone together and just took care of some household stuff. After W left, DD and I were intending to go to a baseball game, but I offered her the alternative of planting flowers in planters on the front porch - and she prefered that, so we went off to the garden center and dropped $80 (baseball would have been cheaper). Upon returning to the house, DD showed no interest in the planting - but it's done - and will look OK in a week or two. Put in Vinka - which I was promomised by the nursery lady tolerated heat well and will bloom through the remainder of the summer.

But, while W was at the house she asked about church. I told her we would go either to the church that she and DD have been going to - or to my old church (where we were wed). She said that she thought (to many "she"'s in here!) that we would go to my old church - since a lot of folks would like to see DD. I said, well, if it would make you ... blah blah blah. I'll cut to the point. I agreed for WW to come to church with us Sunday - which she did.

After church, she came by the house "to take DD's dress home" - and absconded with DD's backpack and all - so that DD had nothing for Sunday night. This ploy did not work because as soon as I discovered it, DD and I went out to buy her some new PJ's - which she already seems rather attached to - and which will stay at my house. I will build DD a secondary collection of clothes so that this kind of nonesence is never again used on me. Also, I won't let WW in the door.

I don't think I'm any closer to reconciliation with WW now - rather I'm farther away. But, I'm going to have a good relationship with my DD no matter what.

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The most disturbing thing about WW's repeated demand that DD come home Sunday night rather than Monday morning - is that she always said "But it just makes sense". In her mind, she seems incapable of imagining that DD has two parents - that just because she thinks something is best for DD, doesn't make it so. I'm not quite sure if she understands that "best for DD" is just a plain ol' lie - that having DD home on Sunday night was what WW felt was best for herself.

What is disturbing about this - is that it is a kind of blindness which could lead to very strong conflicts in the future. It would be one thing if she asked for a shortened visitation, and acknowledged that it was because she misses DD - not because DD might miss her Mom. And if I agreed to that, she might show gratitude. But, instead, she asserts that I am unreasonable not to see that, despite the standard visitation schedule, it would be better to do it her way.

I, like some of the others here - 2Long and FGG perhaps, have trained my W to expect to always get her way. I guess I'm getting what I deserved. For so long, if W disagreed with me, we did it her way - and this was especially true in matters related to DD. It must be rather frightening to WW to realize that she is not in control - not even of DD - not even if she gets primary custody - because during my "visitation", I'm in control.

The bottom line is that she will have to trust me to do what is in the agreement - which she often points out is an unsigned agreement, not filed with the court. I can, and have, threatened her that if she does not cooperate on visitation, I will file unilaterally - on the basis of adultry (perhaps). Such a filing would result in temporary visitation orders being issued - which would be more generous to me than what we are currently doing. So, she complies with the unsigned, unfiled agreement only out of fear.

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