re the email to guy 3, sure was "nice", albeit insincere (why do people do that anyways?). You assume way too much responsibility for others feelings, and that will be unattractive to some men...and is unhealty as well. You are only responsible for your feelings, and being completely honest about them to others. In this case you implied you liked him some, when you did not like him at all, nor did you tell him anything that turned you off (not necessary, but if you are going to go past simple no thx, then would have been a much better and honest response than hey, fishing sounds good, that was so phoney, and I am sure he saw it as such. No offense, just offering you feeback as requested.

Re the over-analyzing people have noted....I don't think that is a problem, cause you still take actions, and IMO waaaayyy to many people act on emotions primarily...dating and mating is very much a cerebral activity if you expect success..emotions will fail you every time if you rely on them primarily. So it is good you realize that with the latest date...on the other hand, not feeling emotions or the click is undesireable too...first the click, then figure out stuff, and make sure a healthy dose of "decisions" dictates your continuing behaviour.

Re the "talk", I had planned on voiceing my opinion about when/how to do so, but not enuf time at the moment...though will say 2/3 date (or equivalent) is the appropriate time, will give reasons later.

You probably want to investigate as lowkey as possible maybe, but do so somehow, exactly why 2 5-year marriages...that is not good at all, and there has to be some very illuminateing explanations, you need to know, if you can get the truth (not that he would necessarily lie, but he may have his own spin that is less than accurate). Chemistry, beliefs, and such seem fine, but you really know nothing about this guy at this point, so you are reacting well realizing a need to be careful about responding to the chemistry...

Generally I don't get too defensive about things right away, but have to admit, I think it's sort of wrong to assume this.

Why didn't I like him? He is too short--says he's 5'8", can't be over 5'6"--that's a big issue for me because I'm much taller AND I wear heals most of the time. Why else? Communication was very awkward. Why else--he just has a certain look that I'm not attracted to--something about his lips and his chin just sort of turned me off.

I saw no reason to mention any of those things in my email. There was nothing during the date that said he wasn't nice. I was glad we got to meet in person. I was appreciative of him for picking up my lunch tab. And frankly, I do really enjoy fishing.

The things I didn't care for aren't things he can change, nor are they things that may make any difference to the right woman (a shorter one, for starters). So why tear him down?

I'd hate it if someone sent me a "thanks but no thanks" letter and it said, you're nice, but you're too tall, to thin, and too flat-chested for me. That may well be the reason many men are not attracted to me, but I don't need torn down over something I can't change. It just makes me that much more self-conscious going into the next relationship.

So, while you may be correct that the only feelings I'm responsible for are my own, it's a trait/habit of mine to think about how I might make them feel, and to temper things once in a while if I don't think it will do harm.

As for the twice-married guy, I do fully intend to find out more if we continue to see each other (heck, he may rethink all that after last night's answer from me and not call again). I know the most of the answer for marriage #2. She has borderline personality disorder and had apparently been said to be somewhat narsacistic (sp?). He didn't know about this, or that she saw a therapist regularly, until they were married (I gather the courtship was a rapid and rather emotionally-driven one). He found out afterwards, I think because she quit going. She had some serious highs/lows that got worse after she had their daughter. They tried counseling with their pastor, he thought things were on track again, then she must have plummeted again, somehow he ended up moved out and with a restraining order against him (my guess is due to some heated emotions, because I nearly had one on me by ex's OW before the DV was final).

Marriage #1, he hasn't elaborated on as much.

The fact is, I really struggle regardless with a two-times married person, just because of what I believe are valid reasons for DV. On the other hand, I really have enjoyed our discussions of biblical things--he is very open and direct about his beliefs, as well as some of the areas he struggles in.

So yes, I'm analyzing.

LL

I am a guy LL, if I date a woman and she does not want to continue, I want to know why, exactly why, and I figure any woman I vest my time and resources in owes me honesty...so yeah.

A. I want to know how she percieves my physical appearance, too short, too tall, too fat, too skinny, doesn't like my nose, smell funny...whatever, this is essential information for me to know what attracts (or not) women....right?

B. Ditto for non-physical issues, if conversation was awkward, then say so, and why if possible. If didn't like my demeanor then say so, if felt uncomfortable with me, then say so, and why if possible.

All this is immensely helpful, and I am sure you would want to know the same when rejected...true? Nice nice feelings are transparently phoney, and emotionally dishonest, so I advocate against that form of dishonesty when I see it, as I do in you....doesn't make you a bad person, it just makes you less safe then an emotionally honest person. If I was your friend, I would not trust you, cause I could never be sure you were being honest about what is going on inside you...do you see? That is what happens when you choose behavior designed to "protect" someone else from experienceing their own feelings... Many people struggle with this idea, thinking they are just being nice...not true, they are not only being hurtful (same reason people don't "tell" their spouse about an affair...to protect them from pain....puhleeez). It is an extremely selfish and destructive behavior to try and be "nice" and sheild others from reality...you were dishonest to this man, and he deserved better. But more importantly your behavior is self-destructive, and will interfere with your success in mating unless you change it and start being authentic at all times. You are not doing this to be nice, you are doing it cause you don't want to deal with someone elses distress at your hands, at least be honest (with yourself) about that, it is about you not them.

btw...saying you wouldn't want to know some things does not excuse you from assuming others don't too....if we took a poll I am certain most of us would say we would like honesty about everything, given in a civil manner of course....and I suspect you would too. Why do you view honesty as tearing someone down anyways, that is a peculiar notion. I have been told in the past I was too fat (for example), didn't bother me a bit...cause it was true.

Ok, maybe a compromise works. Perhaps saying no thx is all one should do without the nicey nicey....then IF they ask why, one responds with are you sure you want all my reasons, they may hurt your feelings...if they say yes, then be forthright...my guess is most will ask....as for me I absolutely hate people acting in any way to protect me from feeling distressed, I want the truth all the time, given civilily, even compassionately, but not watered down. I am adult, and fully capable of handling anything life has to offer, I do not want to be protected, and am offended when someone does so, apparently thinking I am cannot handle the truth. Also I just noted he lied about his height, by gosh he should have been called out on that, and told it doesn't serve him well. Maybe such a truth would help him realize being honest is better than trying to fudge something. Truth is always the best policy.

Hi LordsLady - not once during all of this dating -have I heard you complain about being lonely or depressed -Good for you ... Just enjoy... and I agree honesty is always the best policy.... Good luck....

I disagree, knight. She told him they didn't click, and that was good enough. MUCH more than most people give. If he wants more details, he will ask. "Why don't we click? Please give me more details so I can learn about myself." He may not be like YOU, and may not want to know the details. She was nice, and left it open enough that he can ask, if he wants. As you also said, she doesnt OWE him anything (an explanation / the details).

faith, see my followup, I had modified it b4 you noticed, is true assumptions either way are bad...so indeed the dance is no thx, and wait to be asked the why...but if asked, then reply honestly, right? Re oweing, that is a social contract, if you accept someones attention you incur an obligation re truthfullness, but that is discretionary. If someone gives you the creeps, I would not advocate telling them so, in fact telling them as little as possible would be my advice...ditto for someone who has obvious personality issues. But if someone is a reasonably healthy person, has treated you right, then yeah...you owe em the truth....if they ask, you just don't have to volunteer it.

btw this isn't just about "rules", it is my opinion such behavior is beneficial to both parties, that's why you do it...everytime we are honest, when we would prefer not to be, we are reinforceing that behavior. A good thing don't ya think?

OK, I see your follow-up. Yep, makes more sense.

But we definitely disagree on the nicey-nicey. But that has been hashed out on this forum before, so lets not get into that again - I think the same stuff applies here. Some of us believe it DOES matter HOW you say something. Just as I posted before on this thread, I think keeping things "nice" on this dating playground DOES make a difference. I prefer to be treated this way, and I like to treat people this way. I really don't think i'm taking responsibility for their feelings, just delivering my words carefully, they way I would want to be treated.

Honestly, no, I'd prefer they don't tell me, if it's something I can't change. If I dress weird, tell me. If you don't like my hairstyle or color, you can tell me. If I talk too much, tell me (though that won't change). But if it's my build, or my height, or the shape of my nose, please don't tell me. Just say we didn't click.

Maybe I'm just living in denial, but I prefer not to be reminded of things I can't change. Some of you have read my hangup about being flat-chested. I have had that pointed out by more than one person--not necessarily dates--just friends who though they were being funny or whatever. And I had a husband who did nothing but point out very large-chested women for 19 years of marriage. Did he think he was being helpful? He was subtly saying "you don't measure up". I now go into each date with a fear that it's the first thing he'll notice, and that I'll be rejected. I am very careful of the clothes I pick so as to cover this flaw as much as possible. I am just now starting to become confident that I may be acceptable despite it. If someone tells me it's the reason they can't see me--I'll tumble again.

Why am I saying all this? Because men can be sensitive about their appearance, too. I would guess he's already feeling a little less than adequate, or he wouldn't have fudged the height. Being short is, from what I understand, somewhat difficult for men from an ego perspective. Maybe then again, he truly believes he's 5'8"? Maybe no one has measured him lately? I know a lot of people who think they're one height and really are another.

I don't see it as being dishonest. I truly care about others' feelings. I don't want to hurt anyone if I don't see it as necessary.

There is already far too much hurt and selfishness in this world. I want to do my part to make it a little more bearable. I am honest, but just not blunt.

I hope this sort of explains why I took the stance I took.

LL

when i went out to have fun with my current GF, i made it clear that I was not interested in marriage, I have kids, and I am not going to leave them, and guess what, she made it very clear that she did not have a place in her life for a man. . .

so we were safe, as we each didn't need and didn't want another spousal unit messing up our lives. . .

so why can't you do that? just tell them that you are interesting in some male companionship once in a while. . and are ONLY looking to have fun. . .

and I don't believe what you typed for a second. . . i have watched people for along time, both here and in real life, to realize when someone is deflecting attention from question that is very close to reality. . .

start right up front, you are only interested in some male companionship while having some fun. . and that you can't get married for 5 years due to a legal situation that you might discuss at an appropriate time. . ..

then just have fun . . . and if you don't have fun, you say, "crap, that wasn't any fun."

wiftty

What part didn't you believe?

As for why I'm on the dating site, I figured it wasn't even wise for me to get involved in a relationship right after my DV was final. So I'm trying to do what I think is wisest from a common sense perspective and just go out and try dating and spending some time with guys.

On the other hand, last night's date sort of threw me for a loop (Unfortunately, he's most likely is gone, by the way, because he'd been emailing me pretty much daily and now I haven't heard boo since our date last night. I'm sure he went home, pondered a bit, and said "screw that!").

There are just so many thing I liked, at least in our first two times of being together, about him. I was really enjoying his company.

Let me clarify on this being single thing--I don't think I should be marrying the first guy I meet or tying the knot in the next 6 months. However, I truly pray that I'm NOT still single in 5 years! For starters, I don't care to be celibate that much longer! (Though I realize that may be what God wants for me...I'm just not going to think that far out right now.)

There is no legal situation that doesn't allow me to be married, nor would I lie and make something up. I'm just trying to do what I think is the smart thing to do.

And frankly, from day to day, as I actually meet a few of these guys, I'm starting to reassess what it is I'm looking for. How much do I really want to just date around? Would I rather just settle on one to date for a while? I don't really know. I'm having a decent time, but also having trouble shaking that weird feeling I have about going out with multiple guys for multiple dates.

LL

I hate men that do this!!! I really do!

LL,

There are real MEN out there (like me) that don't care one WHIT about this "feature". I am not a fan of implants, but I do understand why some women choose to get them

When it somes to SF (within the confines of the M), enthusiasm is a far greater attribute for women to have.

FWIW,

WNB

I hate men that do this!!! I really do!

LL,

There are real MEN out there (like me) that don't care one WHIT about this "feature". I am not a fan of implants, but I do understand why some women choose to get them

When it somes to SF (within the confines of the M), enthusiasm is a far greater attribute for women to have.

FWIW,

WNB


Amen WH..... Yep LL lots of jerks in the world (male and female), unfortuneately you were married to a cruel lout, don't let HIS dysfunction become yours. REAL men do not feel like this, much less torment a woman in this manner. And the key (to successful SF) is indeed enthusiasm.

Interestingly, when we first met, before we were married, it didn't seem to be an issue. I mean, he was ALWAYS attracted to very large-chested women. I was the only girlfriend he seriously dated who didn't have that trait. In fact, (laugh if you will), one of his nicknames for me was "hummy nubbins" and he once had it engraved on the backside of an ID bracelet for me. And although I shouldn't have been having SF at all, at that point in my life I was reasonably confident, and it probably came through in that area as well.

Years past, things changed. Resentment built. And I think as he looked around once he was married, it really started to get to him, what he'd ended up with vs. what he was attracted to. (This is my opinion, only. When questioned about it, he'd always say "no, I'm not repulsed by you" but not long into the marriage he quit the "nubbins" thing and took up looking at and pointing out the opposite to me (tv, on the street, friends, on his porn sites, etc.) And instead of trying to understand, he got angry when I'd try and say, "John, this hurts me when you do this. If you're going to look, please don't point them out to me.". And it just got worse over the years.

So, thinking back, yes, my spontenaity probably decreased as the years went by. I lost confidence in myself because I wasn't sure I was satisfying him. And as we got into probably the final 3-4 years of our marriage, I was pretty convinced I was doing nothing right in that area, because he only wanted SF maybe every few months. He was substituting porn.

And seeing how society and TV and advertisements and movies all play up this feature on a woman, and implants are so commonplace in the movie/tv industry...men (and women) are conditioned to believe that everyone should look like that.

So this is a big hurdle for me to get over. I dwell on it. I dress to somewhat conceal it (until I can't, like the rare times I go to a pool or to the beach). And entering the dating scene, it's making me nervous.

That's just the way it is. I know in my mind that God made me this way for a reason (just like God made some people better looking than others). I've finally reached a point where I'm not thinking about implants. I'm keeping what I have. But I'm very self-conscious about it.

LL

Kudos 2 you LL. You did survive it.

And incidently....when my xh first began somewhat showing his roving nature....I decided to get some insurance...yep I sure did.

It made me feel good about myself. And it made my body appear a bit more in balance. I am not skinny, and certainly not fat. But it did make things different.

But in the end, do you really care what a guy says about you? That guy is your xh. His words DO NOT MATTER ANYMORE. My xh used to say I was stupid, ugly and fat. Wow. I really believed it. Even after I got my "friends", I still believed I was stupid, ugly and fat.

Then I got single. I lost the rollercoaster I'd been riding and found peace and sanity. Voila. I also found out that I am anything but stupid, ugly and fat. The day I was elected state prez of my med society, I think I emailed him and informed him to show him he was dead wrong.

Your xh used that as a method of controlling you. By saying others look more appealing to him, it is showing HIS flaw. Not yours. And I am sure he's doing it to her too.

As for me, it was the last big purchase...well the cruise was another..that I made before the split. My sis even got it done too b/c we wanted to still look "like sisters". We didn't get things too large so they'd look very normal.

Now I am single, dumped the dude with the bad karma, and am doing well....as a SMART, HEALTHY AND ATTRACTIVE chickiepoo.

Remember [email]this...bo@bs[/email] don't make the woman. The woman makes the woman. And if the real woman wants to go to Vic's Secret and buy a pushup, some pads or silicone stuffies, or get things done, then it is all adding to the awesomeness that is already present.

Remember you are incredible!

Oh, it hurt like h#ll for about 3 days. Then I couldn't sleep on my tummy for a month. Then things were fine.

It was a good thing for me. And for my sis.

And ironically, now my xh has to know that he paid for me to feel better about me..and yea, now that I am single and he's unhappily married to FV, it's gotta sting.

I would also add...dress to play up your best feature as you use makeup to play up your best facial feature (eyes, lips, etc).

Don't hide with clothes. Just play up the best that is already there ok?

Two down, one to go..

Of the three guys I was originally corresponding with on Match:

Guy #3 - not the right person.

Guy #1 - (awesome eyes) I'm obviously not the right person. Thought he was okay after the "s" talk during our date, after the initial silence, but have heard nothing from him since, so guess not.

Guy #2 - Going out with him again tonight because he emailed me after I got home from the art festival and wants to go out to eat. He's Catholic/I'm Protestant--that in itself is enough for me to not form anything permanent. My beliefs are too set for me to be mixing them. But I'm actually hoping we DON'T have to have the "s" talk for a while, because I'm going to be down to no one to go out with again quickly.

LL

Good to hear from ya.

Just cuz you haven't heard from him doesn't mean he can't hear from you, right? Don't chase him, but I don't think there's anything wrong with a howdy e-mail. "How's your weekend goin" or something.... Did you copy that CD yet? Copy it, and let him know that you need to get it back to him.

I'm glad you're going out again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (with #2, with anyone! hehe) If these 3 don't work out, just take a lil break, then start over again. Relax and enjoy yourself tonight!!!!

I read something in my devotionals recently about a catholic and methodist that dated and married.... I couldn't remember why it caught my attention, but it was because of YOU and #2. It talked about how they really got to know each other and through their differences learned they had a lot more in COMMON, which brought them together.

anyhooooo... have fun, k? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey LL - I'm so happy for you!


Maybe. Maybe. Be careful though. It is easy to interpret what happened to someone else based on our own experiences - may or may not be valid for someone else. I remember this guy I went out with who talked about how he would do violence to anyone who hurt his G/F - seemed reasonable, yet made me uneasy the way he described it. I later found out his step father was a drunk, and a wife beater. Hmmmm.

What you know about the restraining order is only what he has told you. To me that's a bigger red flag than 2 marriages. But then I'm interpreting THAT based on my experiences - I have been married (and soon to be divorced) twice.