BR, I really, really appreciate your posts.

--SDG

BR:

MEDC can poke at an issue around here like no other.

Your trying to be forthright, but you haven't answered his question, and you are under no obligation to do so.

That said.

You have made the changes needed, and developed the coping mechanism's to deal with the alcoholic that lives in your home.

You state you have boundaries.

What are those boundaries?

He can only drink after the kids are in bed?
He has to buy his own?
No drinking and driving?
No Drinking outside of the home?
He can't STOP drinking, but he doesn't drink to stupor status?

My question is about the boundaries.

I am not familiar with the Al-Anon process, except in the most general terms, and you do not have to reveal more than you really need to.

MEDC is right about the harmful effects of an Alcoholic in the household, however, there are ways to minimize those effects on your family. And it appears that you have managed this. And your Husband, in spite of his status, seems to have supported this.

Therefore, you still reserve your choice to move him out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Great thread. I'm learning from it.

LG

Hi LG ~

My boundaries:

I will not live with a violent drunk.

I will not enable addiction by purchasing booze or mixing/serving drinks to an addict.

I will not allow under age drinking in my home.

I will not bail any family member out of jail for a drinking/addiction related incident (although I have never been faced with this situation).

I will not ride in a car, nor allow my kids to ride in a car with a driver that is under the influence.

I will not live with someone who drinks and drives.

I will not live with an adulterer (this includes porn).

I will not live with a dead weight who does not contribute.

I will not live in a household where there is money for booze, but not for bills and groceries.

--

I am not sure you can say that I have "minimized" the impact of alcoholism on my family.

I grew up in a family where NO alcohol was present. Drinking was never discussed.

My dry, alcohol free childhood had effects of alcoholism running rampant through it. I just didn't know it, and was totally unaware that I was "under the influence".

I had been married 8 years when I called home and said to my mother....I think my husband is an alcoholic. And for the first time in my life, at the age of 29, I heard from my mom about the family history of drinking.

I do not believe that I can shield my children from the effects of alcoholism. It is much bigger and more powerful than I am. It is a delusion to believe that if children do not see drinking that they will not be impacted by it.

Removing a child from the presence of an alcoholic is not a protection either. While of course, its not good to live in the presence of rampant addiction, out of sight is NOT out of mind, heart and soul....

There were no alcoholics, no drinking, in my home with 10 children.....and ALL of us have been severely impacted.

Alcoholism s a family disease that impacts not just the physical body of the alcoholic, but also the emotional and spiritual health of everyone in the family.

So...what do I do? I show a good example, I share the lessons I have learned. I refuse to be a victim, I take responsibility for my choices and I refuse to be miserable and sit on a pity pot. I am open and do not keep secrets from my children. I make sure they have experiences that will help them find their own answers as adults. They know their father is addicted to alcohol. We have heart to heart talks about their own anger and frustrations. They know that when they leave home, they will need therapy and Alanon before making life altering decisions.

My husband is more than a label. He is a good, but damaged man. He listened to Steve Harley all those years ago and has taken thoses lessons to heart. More than once, it has been my husband who has taken the first step to fix our relationship when things get rocky or distant.

So there is good and bad mixed together.

I suspect that this is true for many homes, many marriages and many families.

You have to take the bitter with the sweet.

So true.

Dig, are you listening?

Wow BR... great thread. The lessons you provided can be used in many situations. I hope all in MB get a chance to read your thread.

The point you made about making choices without realizing the prior influences is a bit scary. All the more reason to keep the lines of communication open with our entire family. So often I hear that info is learned....waaay after the fact. Why? The reasons at that point are not as important as the loss of time and energies that could have been spent on preparing our minds and hearts for what may have been ahead.

Thank you for making this available to us.

Mahalo,
L.

you have more experience at this that I do... but I will tell you that this line of thinking is not consistent with the vast number of studies out there. Living with an activealcoholic, according to the studies, puts children at a greater risk for depression, suicide and a host of others relationship issues later on in life.

I am wondering why you place so much faith in what one psychologist says regarding infidelity, yet make a decision to ignore a lot of information out there regarding the impact of living with an active alcoholic.

I dated a woman that was an adult child of an alcoholic and she had issues with both relationships (42 and never married... nor were her two other siblings married) and her mother. She repeatedly said that she wished her mother did more to protect them from the harm that comes from growing up in a household like that. Based on what I have read, I happen to agree. She gave me a book, which I believe was titled Adult Children of Alcoholics and it helped me understand her better. But it paints a scary picture too.

I am certain that you do what you feel is best for your children. But there are those elusive "feelings" getting a lot of play here. I would think that since you grew up with the dynamics that you have described that perhaps these types of decisions are tough for you to make in an objective fashion. If you haven't spoken to a counselor regarding the impact on your kids and what trials they will deal with as a result of your and your husbands decisions, that may be in order.

Either way, I wish you the best. I know this cannot be easy on you or your children at times.

MEDC

I find this to be very interesting.

I am ACOA. Those books on ACOA describe me to a T, MEDC...

Many years of psychotherapy later, I've come to see that I suffer the GREATEST EFFECTS from the lack of protection from my mother and also her CODEPENDENT BEHAVIOR. She was very narcissistic, dependent, rageful towards me..SCARY...

Today I am so THANKFUL that I grew up with my father. I am THANKFUL that they did not get a DIVORCE. I would have missed so much from not having him present in my life.

I miss him so much TODAY... due to his drinking, he died an early death...he was WITTY AND FUNNY most of the time when he was HIGH..not a sloppy drunk...

LIFE is COMPLICATED... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Removing a child from the presence of an alcoholic is not a protection either. While of course, its not good to live in the presence of rampant addiction, out of sight is NOT out of mind, heart and soul....

So, why would a person make the decision to subject their child to an alcoholic on a daily basis?

Why isn't it protecting them to not have a drunk living in the house. Even subjecting them to a "happy drunk" turns my stomach.

I guess it teaches them how to take care of a drunk...so that when they grow up and marry one (because that's ALL they know) they will know what to do. I guess it is acceptable to some people.

We all have our limits. We all protect in different ways and to different degrees. I would have NEVER lived with a drunk nor subjected my children to them on a daily basis. Intermittent contact is not preventable unless extraordinary measures are taken. Living with one isn't intermittent contact. I choose better for me and my kids.

committed

yes, and some choose to complicate it even more than is necessary.

It sounds like both of your parents were incredibly difficult Mimi. I am sorry you had to deal with that.

THANKS, MEDC!!

hi MEDC ~


I am well aware of this information. But you see, I work in clinical research, and I know that studies in drugs (I work in pharmaceuticals) and in human behavior often only paint part of a picture - and often without context, are meaningless without other answers.

I'll make this point again.

My grandfathers were raging, violent alcoholics that I never knew.

My parents left Texas to move to Washington State before I was born .... just to get away from the violent dysfunction in both of their families.

As a result, I grew up not knowing ANY alcoholics.

There was NO alcohol in my home, no drinking, and the topic was NEVER discussed.

My parents proceeded to raise 10 children in an acoholic free environment.

The result? EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US married an alcoholic or became one.

You can exclude the alcoholic - but you can not exclude the impact, the incredible insidious emotional and spiritual damage simply by removing the drinker.

What those studies focus on are the drunks and the booze. The focus is far too narrow.

I left home thinking my family was perfect, and that I had an incredibly strong upbringing. I thought I had it all together.

I had no idea that my parents were so terribly impacted by the disease and that they had passed it on to us.

I had no idea what alcoholism was. I didn't seek advice or help because I didn't think I needed any.

I nearly killed myself...I was depressed and suicidal. I remember one morning, lying in bed with my precious little son snuggled up to me and thinking...if my husband wasn't a drinker, then I would be free to kill myself. Even in suicide, I was a victim. POOR BR!

I've come a long way from that day.

I can tell you that the presence of alcohol is not the source of greatest damage to children.

It is the family member's reaction to the alcohol that does the damage.

That's why, I totally understand what Mimi says about her Mother being the problem, not the drunk Dad. I get that entirely.

I used to be Mimi's mother. I will tell you that in those studies there are TWO dysfunctional parents - not just one alcoholic.

My family and my husband's family is riddled with addictions.

The damage to my children will happen, has happened, whether we live with my husband or not.

And again....living with an alcoholic doesn't make my job as a mother easy. But no longer do I selfishly wrap myself in misery and self-pity, and neglect my children's emotional needs. I talk to my children about alcohol. When I see twisted thinking pop up, believe me, I whip out the motherly 2x4. My boys come to me for advice and share their feelings with me. Last Dec, we went to a family reunion, and my sisters kept repeating their surprise that my teenage boys were remarkably comfortable with physical affection. Physical affection in my childhood home was bad bad bad - my dad was a harsh disciplinarian, and so his hugs scared us badly. We were not comfortable - closeness was not safe. MY children do not demonstrate that problem. Why? I hug them EVERY SINGLE DAY. I tell them I love them every single day. I talk openly and honestly to them. I combat the impact of alcohol on a regular basis. I share with my children the lessons and wisdom I've learned in the years since my recovery from the effects of alcoholism in my life. I can NOT protect them from the impact, I can simply teach them how to cope. I am doing that - and its far more than I had as a child.

And as I said before, I have a very serious reason for staying. I will not discuss it here, nor do I owe anyone here an explanation. I haven't asked for advice on my situation - although I do my best to share transparently and honestly.

There are WORSE things than alcoholism, at least as it is manifested in my home. I *am* protecting my children, from that something worse.

So glad that my life offered you an opportunity to feel superior. I hope you are never on the receiving end of such judgements you leveled against me.

I didn't ask for your advice or judgement.

medc said:
"you have more experience at this that I do... but I will tell you that this line of thinking is not consistent with the vast number of studies out there. Living with an activealcoholic, according to the studies, puts children at a greater risk for depression, suicide and a host of others relationship issues later on in life."

That's not entirely accurate, medc. There is a difference between "an alcoholic home" and "a home in which an alcoholic lives." From what I know about the disease, Alanon, ACOA, and reading a variety of Bramblerose's posts over the years, I would bet big bucks on her having a loving, healthy, functional family who live in a home in which an alcoholic lives.

medc, I hope that I don't offend you by saying this but from reading your posts over a period of time I actually thought alcoholism was an issue in your family/relationships. Bramblerose gave a good example of how it can seem to "skip" a generation or two only to run rampant through the next generation. If stopping the spread of the disease was as simple as putting down the bottle....or as simple as divorcing an alcoholic....well, I think the disease would be gone already.

Again, I hope that I didn't offend you. If there is a history of alcoholism in previous generations of your family, or if there are any of the typical things that tend to show up in "skipped" generations, I encourage you to research the disease so that you can either rule it out or take steps to stop it from being passed on to your children and theirs.

Take care

no offense taken and no alcoholism either. thanks for your concern though.

A home in which an active alcoholic lives... again, according to the studies I have read, does present a danger to children. Do a Google search... there are a lot of studies available for that.

BR... I don't think CNL was across as judgemental or superior...just offering a perspective that a lot of people would feel regarding this issue. Even with your explanation, I can tell you that I have some of the same concerns expressed by CNL. I hope I have expressed those concerns in a way that has not been offensive to you.

Hi MEDC, CNL was passing judgement. You are simply asking why.

I did not say I don't believe there is harm.

I do believe there is harm. I have experienced the harm, I am aware of the harm, I recognize the harm.

You seem to think that if you could just convince me that this is bad for my kids that I'll just say: Oh, I see, I'll get right to packing!

I get it.

But there are far more evil things in this world than dynsfunctional drunk. And I need to protect my children from much more than drunk father who loves his wife and kids the best he can.

I don't know how else to put it.

I think I understand now BR. Be safe.

Thanks, BR.

How blessed your children are to have a MOTHER like you....

My DADDY is dead and my MOTHER still doesn't get it....

I'm free from her now, though...as you say, it's OPTIONAL..

I seem to have struck a nerve.

My opinion is different than yours...and yes, I CHOSE what *I* consider better for my children.

*I* considered it protecting my children, where you do not see it as protection.

Statistics have proven that children who witness abuse will likely grow up to either be abusers or marry abusers.

I would say that would apply to living with an alcoholic as well. It will be the people that they gravitate toward.

I am not superior..,again, I CHOSE different and what I consider better. If that comes across as superior to you, then so be it.

committed

CNL ~ you posted to tell me that YOU would never make such a bad choice. You *are* flat out passing judgement, and you don't even have my position right.

In addition to apparently not reading anything I've posted to MEDC about this question... you are not in my shoes, how could you possibly know what you would do?

whilst this seesm to be a highly emotional debate i do not take an opinion one way or another.
i would however like to thank you all for a very enlightening and educational read into alcoholism. i've learnt an enormous amount of stuff i had no idea about.
i shall remain a fence sitter on your debate, however i'm much wiser on the topic.
Thanks!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />