Hi killerjoe

I see you are new. Just curious... what's your story?

Susan

Susan, I described some of my story a few posts ago, scroll up.

Oh! Thanks. I missed that one somehow.

Susan

My ego?? Hardly. Interesting you stated that we shouldnt "debate" here, and then you issue a personal attack on me. Not sure I ever di that to you. Someone can help me with that one.

On your issue of shame, God, religion, etc...I take the opposite approach and feel thet the truth NEVER is bad. So, by stating that I need to "reconsider" my position with my daughter i nthe situation I posted, you are saying I am wrong. HHHmmmm?!?! Sounds like a debate. So, let me turn it around, so you can see how what you did was exactly what you were saying you didnt want me to do.

"KJ, I could sit here and debate God with you all day, but that isn't going to help anyone who is struggling with their relationship. I don't think we should argue over this. You have your viewpoint, I have mine. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. One thing I want to say, though. When you come down on people for not living up to YOUR idea of what God is, or wants, you are often going to wind up with one result: driving people away. I think you should seriously consider this basic fact as it is possible those of us that know God may be right and your approach does nothing but show your true colors. One CAN teach a person, as long as their mind is OPEN! You can only help a person to discover through helping them OPEN their OWN eyes. The guilt and shame is neither positive nor negative. I think that you denigrating someone's relationship with God and expressing that makes you feel superior and it only helps your own ego."

So, how's that feel?

Look, this is GoodGirl's thread. I have real problems with people justifying wrong and immoral behavior under the cloud of being a "good" person. Or having "good" intentions.

I am not interested in debating "religion." And it is not my job to win even ONE person to Christ. That is His. All I am to do is to speak the truth. I know Jesus. He is a real person. And He can be proven to exist. For those that have open eyes.

So, I dont fall for the "I dont want to debate....but you are wrong and should keep your views to yourself and help people my way." If you believe you knwo the truth, you will express it. And so will I.

Shame and guilt were put there by God. They are feelings, just as anger, happiness, joy, etc are feelings. These feelings are neither good or bad. They are there for a reason. What makes things good or bad is what we do with those feelings.

I want shame and guilt in my life. Otherwise, I do just as GG did above...and walk into the sunset with OM...both justifying the unjustifiable to each other.

You know, Saddam sits in a jail cell, telling those guys who are grilling him, that he had to kill those thousands of people because they were traitors and subversives. He has no remorse, no guilt, no shame. He believes what he did was right. Do you, KJ, have any right (under your way of thinking) to tell him he was wrong...to shame him...to guilt him? To "teach" him that he is a murderer, not matter how he wants to spin it.

Same goes with GG here. She is an adulteress, no matter how she wants to spin it. She can choose to ignore and justify...and it will never go away. I can guarantee it will be with her...and so will the consequences.

Or she can own her sin, show true remorse because she has realized it was wrong, and then make amends. And go forward and not sin like that again.

Her choice. All I have done is express what her choices are. That is not pushing someone away. Look, I told my wife she had to stop her immoral behavior and end the affair. What right did I have to tell her that? What right did I have to call her actions immoral? I mean, she stated that she had considered our marriage over before starting up with the OM while I was deployed after 9/11 (sounds vaguely familiar to the justification GG has come up with). So, what right did I have to do that?

I had the right because what she was doign was wrong. And it was wrong, not because I thought it was wrong, or I have a majority of people believe it was wrong...because if that were so, the one day, we might get a majority to believe or say it is okay. Does that make it okay? Of course not!

Remember, for the longest time in the U.S., we thought it was okay to have slaves. It was the law. It was accepted. Did that make it right, or was it immoral? Of course, it was immoral.

No, if people can define morality...then there is NO morality. It is just what we think it is today. Tomorrow it may all be different.

Instead, morality, sin, etc has to be defined by something or someone outside of ourselves. And that is God. And by God defining what morality and sin is, then comes guilt and shame at not meeting the mark, at failing to be a "good" person.

And wha tdoes that shame and guilt to. Well, for the truly "good" person, it pushes them back to doing right. For the "bad" person, they dont care and just continue on.

I am praying for you KJ (and GG). I do not take offense to yoru personal attacks, because the truth is never bad...and I am not the author of the truth. So, I dont need totake it personally.

But as long as I can speak, I will tell the truth. The truth is the only thing that can set you free from shame, guilt and sin.

In His arms.

To GoodGirl. Once again, I am impressed with your level-headed approach. I think you're cool. Hang in there. It sounds to me like you and your soon to be ex weren't the best match, so although it is difficult and painful, in the long run I think you'll come out ahead. His relationship with the younger woman is bound to fail............eventually. He'll get his, someday. But by then, you will be miles ahead of him in your own destiny. I am sure of that. I hope my observations and opinions have helped you in some way. Have a nice weekend, and be good to yourself - you deserve it.

To Mortarman:

I suggest you listen to as many Blues records as you possibly can.

((((GoodGirl)))))

“””We're not kids having any funny fantasies about being separated.”””

In my humble opinion unless you either remove the affair or remove God from your life then you are living a fantasy. I know of absolutely no teaching of God that condones married people having sex with other partners.

GoodGirl, what you’re doing is not uncommon, except maybe the part about doing it with a married man who may or may not be divorced in a year. These boards are riddled with people who chose a similar path you’re walking down now. As you can see, I’ve been here long enough to have been afforded the great honor of befriending many of them and not one of them that I know believe what the did was healthy or right. All of them have regret for their decision. What is done is done, but you can choose from this day forward to do the right thing for you, whatever that may be. You get to decide what type of person you wish to be. If you wish to be an adulteress, that is your choice. If you wish to be a Godly woman, again that is your choice. One of my rules of thumb is that I don’t do anything in the relationship department that I wouldn’t want my children doing. So if you’d be proud of your married son sleeping with a married woman and justifying it to the world then that your deal.
---------------------------------------------
((((KillerJoe))))

May the grace of God be with you……….

Oh good gonads! All this debating about religion and what spirituality is better, what is right/wrong according to whose higher power and whether there are any legitimacies of decision-making like GoodGirl's recent choice? What is the point of it? What is the end result hoped for from this kind of diatribe? Is GoodGirl responding to this in a way that we all think is positive? How is this form of expression helpful to GoodGirl exactly?

This all reminds me of one of those silly jokes my mum used to tell:

• One day back in the holy land Jesus came upon a crowd preparing to stone a woman. "What's going on here?" he asked.
  
  The crowd responded, "This woman was judged to be a harlot. The law says we should stone her!"
  
  "Wait! Wait!" yelled Jesus, "Let he who is without sin among you cast the first stone."
  
  Suddenly, a wrinkly old woman threw a big rock at the harlot, knocking her in the head and killing her dead on the spot.
  
  "Motherrrrr!" Jesus exclaimed, "I wish you'd stop doing that!"

Sally

(((Sally)))

Heck, even the Religous aspect of it isn't necessarily the point here. The main point is is she doing what's right for her. Yes, when religion comes in that sparks a whole other debate. But name me one source that believes that what she is doing is healthy and positive for her recovery from a poor marriage. There are thousands of self-help books out there and I've never read a single one that would recommend this..... I have read countless books that say to wait, grieve, and become healthy before dating or whatever you wish to call it. Otherwise, it's just like someone who drinks to hide from the pain. It feels good for a while but your problems are still there the next day.

On a religous note. We do all screw up and we all do sin. However, out of true love for God we should strive not to do those things. And when we do do something bad, just like the woman in your story, we admit our fault, ask for forgiveness, and try to live better from that day forward not continueing to live in the wrong.

[color:"green"] hello...I am a BS...and I can tell you that although I would be hurt if my H had sex while we were separated(especially if I was trying to work on the marriage)...I would not view it as cheating. If you are that close to a divorce, you are divorced, IMHO. Marriage is more than just a piece of paper....and so is divorce.

Sally, you are right...preaching to someone when they are asking for support is not the way to go about it. Expressing your opinions and telling why you believe that way is ok, but don't espect EVERYBODY to believe the same thing AND understand that EVERYONE is imperfect. We are all trying to find our way. Believe it or not, you can completely believe in God and all that he stands for and still mess it up. I am one of those people <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Goodgirl... I would however, really check into your friends story. There are many a men out there (and women too) who say they are getting a divorce but really do not mean it. If he is a good friend, he will show you some proof. To protect yourself... I would insist on no sex for now.

I hope you find all you are searching for...and I am truly sorry to hear of your divorce as those are painful enough without all this other cr** thrown in

Take Care

True [/color]

We all mess up. Not the point here. The point is that GG stated she was trying to follow God and find her way. Because she had not said what God she followed, we had assumed she was a Christian, and gave her what God has said. So, "religion" was brought into this discussion by GG.

Again, if we are all trying to get opinions here on what is right, then why do it? Who cares what everyone says...or what the majority says? We could all be wrong. Which goes back to my point that morality cannot be set by opinions.

Something is right or wrong because someone or something outside of us puts those laws upon us. I may think I can walk out of this building and jump straight to the moon...but the law of gravity tells me I am wrong. And I dont care if I can get 75% of the world's population to believe I can do it. Belief and opinion are immaterial. The law is the law...and I cannot jump to the moon.

Same goes with morality. If morality is decided by majority and/or decided by the masses, then it isnt morality. It is folly.

Thus, whatever anyone's opion expressed here...it doesnt matter. To say my wife cheating on me was wrong would make me wrong. Oppppsssss. There I go. I cant be wrong for saying she is wrong. Do you see?

So, if it is opinion and the majority, then we might as well stop searching for the right answer because there isnt one and everything is subjective. Shut down this board because these people have no right being upset by a WS cheating...because it isnt cheating (just as GG has said about her adultery).

In His arms.

To GoodGirl........again.

You seem to be the most sane and rational one here, so I keep posting to you, specifically. I hope that doesn't bother you. I have a question. What do you do for your own personal enjoyment? What I mean is do you have a hobby or a favorite activity? Something along the lines of reading books, writing books, salsa dancing, going to plays, painting, playing the piano, watching movies, etc.
I am only curious and also trying to steer this discussion back to something resembling reality.

{{{LH}}} Backatcha! I'm not going to pass up a virtual hugging op. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think we are in agreement. It’s not about religiosity. And we don't all have to hold the same ideals. Just because it's not my birthday doesn't mean I won't come to your party... You know?

Truetoself -- thanks for the support. How are things going for you? Are you still separated?

Mortarman, I've said it before on these boards a bunch of times -- It's nice to feel like I'm right but I get so much more out of learning I'm wrong. I bet we'd have some killer theological discussions, but I'd want to have them in their own thread where there would be no risk of our well-intentioned arguing eclipsing someone's request for assistance. It hurt me to see the disproportionate ratio of damning statements to constructive statements throughout GoodGirl's thread.

GoodGirl, I'm a BSo too. Phil (the WSo) and I are separated and I remember those small victories -- when just getting through the day was my goal. I guess I've been watching this thread wondering if I would have stuck around had I received a reception like this when I first wandered in two months ago... Nice job hanging in there and being receptive! Best wishes to you for inner peace through the next few weeks during your divorce proceedings.

Ciao,
Sally

Actually Joe, that may be the problem. In our society of I want what I want and I want to FEEL right about it, reality seems to have slid by the wayside. This discussion, through it's rabbit trails, is reality. Rather than steer it into something that feels good, why not address it for what it is? When we choose to hide from reality, whether it be through immoral behavior, sex, drugs, and alcohol, reality waits for us to come back and smacks us in the face usually harder than the time before.

GoodGirl, may the good Lord pour on you the blessing of His will in your life and may you drink fastly that what is given so freely...

I'll bet Lost Husband and Mortarman don't get invited to very many cocktail parties. You two seem a bit preachy to me. What makes you so sure you know what is right for someone else? Both of you. Are your egos so sensitive that you feel the need to take a moral high ground on issues that you are only a witness to and NOT an active participant in?

Goodgirl,

I think that by not waiting until your divorce was finalized put you in an ethical bind. I'm glad that you have found a way to extract yourself from that situation.

I would wait to date until your marriage is over. It is only a month. I would then give yourself some time to grieve. Then date. Do not date married men no matter how separated they are. Date single men. It is a whole lot simpler that way.

I don't like labels and I am not about to call you a cheat. If I had to pick one I would say that you are a hurt betrayed spouse.

How are your kids doing with the divorce

Me again....

First, Sally, I am not seperated...my H and I are still together trying to make everything all ok. I was just saying that if this had all happened during a separation...especially if divorce was just a month away...I would not view it as cheating.

However, I do have a friend whose H cheated on her...they are getting a divorce..she has started a new relationship and her H has said that he feels like she is cheating now...so I suppose GG should see what the OM's almost ex-w says.

To all who say they "know the truth"... I am sorry to say that NONE of you ARE God...so you can NEVER completely know the truth...just the truth that has been passed down from human to human. So many people use what they say is the "truth" to spout hate and judgement on others.

However...I do think LH is right...THIS is reality...she asked for opinions and that is what she got...some judgements too, but at least she can see where people stand.

True

“””I'll bet Lost Husband and Mortarman don't get invited to very many cocktail parties.”””

Joe, these types of comments are not beneficial to anyone and pretty much go against the agreement you made when you chose to become a member of this site. Mortarman and myself are both long time members of this site who have read and subscribe to this principles that this site is based upon. You’ve been here, what, a week and you’ve got life all figured out.

“””What makes you so sure you know what is right for someone else?”””

I believe if you look at both our posts, you’ll see that they were made from Godly views and educated life experience. If you don’t subscribe to those views or don’t have that experience, then how are you qualified to speak of them?

“””Are your egos so sensitive that you feel the need to take a moral high ground on issues that you are only a witness to and NOT an active participant in?”””

Actually, the ignorance stated above is comical. Ego has nothing to do with taking the moral high ground. As a matter of fact, it’s pretty much to total opposite. Someone who truly possesses humility is more likely to take the high ground. Someone who possesses ego, is more likely to take the easy road and then justify their behavior.

Joe, I strongly recommend that you take the time to read through all the information on this site rather than trying to rescue a damsel in distress or pick fights with long-term educated members of this site. Quite frankly, if you communicate with your spouse the way you’ve communicated with us, then there is definitely room for growth.

((Joe)), I’m out for the weekend, but if you’d like to continue any type of a discussion on a separate thread, hit me up on Monday. That being said, have a great weekend.

God Bless