As per your request as to our convo this am out of the book I told you about:

**note to others - this may seem out of place and may not seem to go with this post, but it is in respond to a private convo I had with Sally <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> so sorry if it seems out of context on this thread, also - it's details pertaining to the WS out of this book, so once again - it may seem very out of place**

How the BS "controls" the recovery process

1. As the BS stops attacking and obsessing less, the WS can begin to relax; won't have to be the strong one.

2. As the BS begins to greive less, the WS can begine to feel his own pain and start to greive

3. As the BS begins to forgive the WS, the WS can begin to forgive himself.

What losses does the WS have to greive over?

1. The loss of self respect.

2. The loss of the God-given boundary that was a natural defense against extra-maritial involvement

3. The loss of a clear conscience in the sexual arena

4. The loss of free and unhindered sexual expression with the BS

5. The loss of trust from the BS

6. The loss of natural openness between friends and acquaintances.

7. The loss of a job

8. The loss of being human and being able to have normal shortcomings or idiosyncrasis (atleast in early recovery)

9. The loss of the artificial world that the WS created with the OP

10. Many other unique losses.

For the BS: Denial of Anger vs Genuine Forgiveness

Denial of Anger is:

- Unawareness of feelings
- No vacillations in attitude
- No vulerability with mate
- Overly predictable relationship, with the tendancy to gut it out, to "stay comitted" (ie: simply married) without much joy
- No change in relationship style
- Focusing on projects outside the self
- Acting out feelings, often injuring self and mate; or supressing feelings
- Nuturance received exclusively outside the marriage; from friends, children, job
- Emotional heaviness; nothing is as good as anticipated
- Never beeing thankful for the fallout of the affair
- Refusal to talk about the affair with others who could benefit - intense feelings of shame
- Less respect than ever for the WS; carries cloaked disdain for him/her
- Mental accusations of multiple infidelities
- Continually placing sole responsibility for condition of the marriage on infidel
- Victimized feelings ("one down") or supoerior feelings ("one up")

Genuine Forgiveness is:

- Acute awareness of all feelings
- Cylical/seasonal vacillation in attitude
- Complete vulerability, at times afraid of the risk at stake
- Unpredicability at times - the normal roller coaster ride of a healthy marriage
- Many changes, some of which are quite frightening
- Focusing on the self and the marriage relationship
- Ability to talk about feelings with mate
- Beginning to receive nuturance from mate
- Freedom, exhileration, feeling unbelievably alive at times
- Gratefulness for the changes the affair has brought into the marriage and into the WS's life
- Ability to discuss the affair relatively pain-free, given appropriate processing and the passage of some time
- Greater appreciation developing for mate
- Healthy, biblical sexuality, children benefit from new levels of family intimacy
- Growing awareness of his/her own shortcomings that contributed to the affair, shared responsibility
- Healthy sense of wholeness without comparing self to WS - growing mutual self-respect.

When the WS expresses true sorrow for their actions and isn't playing games

Even though you might not believe it right now, if the WS wants to genuinely return to the marriage, his pain is unbelievably excruciating. Resist the temptation to flog him emotionally beyond normal and healthy expressions of anger.

The greatest risk any person could take in a relationship: to actually have betrayed the relationship and then both admit it and say he wants to return to the relationship. It's a very courageous thing for a person in this circumstance to do. Most people hate pain so much we opt for secrecy over honesty and transparency; your mate hasn't now. That shows how badly he wants you and the relationship back. Sure, he's guilty, but he's showing you now the value he places on his relationship by disclosing it and expressing his desire to come back.

Realize that by disclosing the affair, your WS is telling you that the message of the marriage has changed. He is staying by his actions that he wants to regain intimacy with you. He wants to get back to where you were when you two got married. That is a major message, and you need to give it your full attention.

You have every right to feel overwhelmed, out of control, enraged and practically crazy when the affair is disclosed. Don't put the pain away too quickly; take your time to finish the process of healing. Taking time is healthy. Now that the affair is disclosed, you know the truth. For the first time, your relationship has the potential for genuine intimacy.

Dorry, Thank you for your labor of love! That was a LOT of typing. I will read and re-read.

All, Heh, The hair guru had much to say about Phil today. It's getting to be a regular sitcom. I figure I will share the laughs...

Hair guru (She knows Phil only slightly less intimately than I what with waxing and all) said:

1. He [Phil] must want to be with you if he is taking a day off from work to be with you.

2. If you're this unsure, you should spend some time with a real man and find out what you've been missing...

3. That b*sta*rd! Look at this (gesturing at gigantic bald area) This is Phil's fault! He made your hair fall out!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

She spewed like that for a while. She made me laugh and laugh and then I fell asleep in her chair, de-stressed!

Sally

i am SO glad you had a good day - YOU DESERVE IT!

OK, this may just be me venting but I don't really have anything to vent...

Phil is acting strange and I am beginning to feel weirded.

He is contacting me at least once a day or more. Today was more. All smiles, all good, no angst, no upset I don't even get a whiff of frustration coming off of him. None of it.

He is sharing himself with me. It's freaking me out. He is expressing interest in me. I'm having a cow over that too. He's testing me I think, possibly feeling me out for the things I mentioned above about him...

He knows my MO is to always forgive. In the past he's despised me for it - forgiving those who hurt me. Could it really be that he thinks I would offer him less compassion than I give others?

It's fast and it isn't. It's right and it isn't. It's my Phil and it isn't. I am trying not to think about his side much but concentrate on my own feelings and responses. I don't know when I've ever felt like this...

Has anyone experienced this kind of return from a WS? Orchid you mentioned it was similar to your sit. Anyone else? Any calming words for me tonight? Regardless, prayers welcome. They are helping.

Thanks,
Sally

Hey Sally, take a deep breath. Write down what it would take for you take Phil back. Dating leading to Marriage? I would not agree for him to move back in, I think living together is a bad idea. What are your boundaries? Stay calm and see where this is leading, continue plan A.

{{Sally}}

ff, hugs are good too. Thank you so much. I needed that one very badly.... :-) thank you ff! {{{ff}}}}

SO,

Finished 18 in about 5 hours. Supped at the pub. Phil managed to snag our bench in the corner of the bar. :-) Home not too, too late, fed 'n' watered the boys, had s sanity phone call, a (semi-provoked this time) cry and slept an hour or so....

Results? Mixed bag. Phil showed me love with deeds and actions and/but NOT with anything physical. It is confusing to me but I'm hoping to get MY responses right with time and practice. He was attentive in other ways and showed me respect, some of which I am only remembering this minute.

For instance, my phone rang while we were teeing off at hole 1. and thought I turned it off. The software differentiates (I didn't know until today) between texts and voice. So two holes later an alert sounded for a text. I apologized for having become one of "those" people. Phil said no problem and then offered up that he told the office he'd be reachable but he left his phone in the car.

He left his phone in the car. I really am getting OW treatment. He went dark, but this time he went dark for me. I can live with that!

I did beat him on a couple of par threes and that ROCKED! I so love par 3s. The back 9 we were joined by a third and that changed the course of the day quite a bit. Much less private nods and laughs. Much much less horsing around and fun play. Oh well.

Phil did and said so many right things. Still, I am doubting him and I'm not questioning any of that. I am away for the next 10 days for "Sally time" and Phil will be alone with OW. Well, OW and Perp and Squirt. I don't think OW likes dogs. :-) Guess we'll have to see if the A really is over or not. I'll just assume it's not over until PROVEN otherwise.

At first, my thought walking in the door after today was he didn't love me anymore, didn't think I was pretty anymore which is especially dumb since we already know he has a everything-physical-and-Sally aversion. Now that I am remembering everything I am wondering what really is real and true. He was lovely so why would I doubt? I think I need some re-adjusting. Being away will be good for me.

***Edited to add***
Tonight over dinner Phil asked me how is B______ doing? referring to the heroine in the book I've been writing this past year +. He said, I don't know if it means anything to you coming from me, but I really want you to finish your book. I know it is going to be a good one.

Another surprise.... we talked a little tiny bit about the evolution of the work so far. He cared about my writing. He hasn't shown me any respect for that effort in a year! And I didn't feel like he was blowing my dress up either. He seemed genuine. Can you believe it?

Sally

Sally,

U R right to be cautious. 2 good 2 b tru? Hm.... c/b.

Ok, my take is that he is trying but why? If you don't know the answer, then ask. Let him know that while it is nice to see him doing nice 'n fun things with you, his actions are confusing you to say the least and wondered if he could explain why the change? Just like that. Straight up.....don't go beating a bush or anything around it. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

U R also correct that my WS did similar. That did not mean the A had stopped either. This was his weak attempt at recovery and at first I thought he had finally come to his senses. Not to scare you but in our case he was at that time 3 years from real recovery with many false recoveries in between.

I did not take as hard a stance as I wish I had. I implemented plan B but reneged when he showed minimal progress. BAD Orchid!!! This just taught him to give crumbs and get the whole enchilada. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Of course, in time I saw how I was being used. It helped when he actually fessed up and said something stupid like: 'you know L., as long as you would have put up with me in the A, I could have kept it up..... forever, I think.'

That certainly was a very rude awakening. From that point plan B took on a bolder approach. I started carrying it around in my back pocket and whipped it out as needed. Recovery stakes went up not down for him. Each time he decided to test the waters at my expense, he paid for it with his.

It was hard to up the stakes but I needed to save my sanity. For me this worked. I did less work, he did more. Still not even because remember as a BS we are overworked already. So he had a loooong way t/g.

I will stop the saga here, I think you get my drift. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Have a wonderful vacation, Sal.

Orchid,
Should I wait until I come home after holiday? Should I ask over the phone before I leave or wait to ask in person? Should I make a special call now without a prompt from Phil first?

Should I wait until a while after I return from holiday and see how Phil behaves then? Won't he be different after seeing/spending time with OW anyway? They've been apart for the last two weeks. This much I know.

I don't know if there has been contact by phone or e-mail though. Based on yesterday I might guess there was some contact between when I talked to him Tuesday and yesterday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Just a gut thing -- not based on anything real.

Is it worth it to ask now ?

Sally

Sally,

When and how you do it is up to you. If you can handle in person and later, then do so. If you can't then do what you can. It is certainly more effective to do it ASAP and in person. It will require you be in full control of yourself but it is also ok to show hurt (crying, even some anger, etc.). In control of yourself means more that you will not go crazy in your accusations, so practice what you will say, how you will say it and anticipate his worst response then practice on how to respond. Keep it short as possible. Leave him wondering. Don't give details or explain. Just let him know you don't feel safe. Use words like safe, care or caring, etc. instead of love.

L.

{{{{Orchid}}}} many thanks for the speedy response. I started down the flippy dippy road and then I decided -- Unless he shows up at my door tonight before I leave, I am letting it go until I return. Whatever will be -- will be. I need the mental break and I intend to make the best of that break.

{{{dorry}}} you have a knack for reminding me of the law of economy -- a subject near and dear to my heart. Thank you.

For what it's worth, the e-mails are rolling in. Short sweet, surprising. No lovey-dovey. No apparent agenda. Just happy for me and slightly leading. I'm taking the NCWalker advice to heart still and trying to remember to treat Phil like anyone else.

I think I can actually eat something today.
Sal