Sally - Quit your job and take up being a writer. That was absolutely great. I'm serious. I love reading, and you know what? I felt like I was THERE.

Hang in there and see what happens next.

Yes, I agree...a great read...great writing....

Golly, it is a bit hard to figure Phil out. It seems a part of him hasn't believed it's possible to -go back-...be back together with you. I think that if it is at all possible for you two again that you should not live together, get engaged again, and just plan the wedding. Do it in the 'right' order this time. You've already tried each other out and have learned a lot from this whole experience. If he could only believe in love as a decision...a conscious choice and commitment.

I think you did great...handled it very well, indeed.

Before I forget, thank you praying people. I think the prayers are helping. I'm not big on organized religion despite deep faith and spirituality -- a prayer is a prayer! So thanks.


{{{Orchid}}} your insight about me dwelling was great. I remember reading your thoughts on your own dwelling from your older threads... You are right on about me but how am I supposed to move forward? It seems to me that despite a possible turning point, I'm in much the same place.

So to all inputters and lurkers, any moving forward ideas are well-received even if they aren't my usual. Although, I will say that suggesting cooking lessons probably isn't going to go over well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


{{{believer}}} Hugs to you too. I did retire from my job, started a novella, lost a baby, lost my head, lost my honey and now I'm fixin' to write country and western music. Nahhh. Just kidding. I'll finish that novella someday but in the interim, I'm really missing my old job and I'm looking for a new sit.


{{{{{Trix}}}}} You've been watching over me since day 1.
You were cool with my not having been married to Phil despite the long engagement and relationship. And if you weren't cool with it, you were at least cool with my honesty and that, I think, saved me from a lot of extraneous sin/harlot/fornication kind of talk. Not that I couldn't deal with that sort of thing, but YOU made it a huge point to HELP and I've never forgotten your kindness...

I'm with you. No more living with ANY man before marriage. I don't want to say never, so I'll just say it's unlikely I will do that again - ever. I don't know any other way to make it clear to Phil that I am serious about being a wife and mother other than simply being clear that I want to be a wife and mother.

So, if he decides to face his dear and decides he wants me, I plan on being very clear that I expect that this will mean an engagement ring, NO MORE engagement houses thank you. This one is lovely but I want a ring now. And, I expect a wedding, and soon. No more waiting. If he is serious about us starting over, I want to be married inside of 2005.


But there is something I really want. I want some marriage coaching and I want some kind of constructive coaching about his sexual aversion to me. I want us to do this together. I don't see any other way for us if Phil isn't out in the open with someone about our problems.


And even before that, how in the world am I going to convince him that I am worth the chance? I don't think I can. I think he is going to have to choose love. And I will have to keep choosing or not as time passes...

This IS hard! Advice about being a fun, inspiring, pleasing, delightful person will be much appreciated. Keep it coming ladies!!! When it comes to Phil I'm a blathering idiot.


Other news, slightly OT, Who was it that suggested cotton briefs? Was that Pep??? Apparently Phil checked out my underpants on that rotten soup day so long ago... Men are such dogs! One of his associates checked me out that day too and told Phil I was beautiful and very HOT. (Who talks like this? Men talk like this?) This guy wanted to know who I was. Phil had to tell him I was his ex-fiancee. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Phil stopped telling there and didn't say whether he gained or lost respect on that count. Any guesses?

And hey? Gentlemen? Forgive the dog comment? Where did you all go? WAT, RIF, bOb Pure*, NCW, A2, Lemonman, Top Rope? You guys have a way of giving me that much needed kick to the head too... plus you have the p-factor working for you and I am sure that WAT channels Phil...

What say you?

Sally

WAT, RIF, bOb Pure*, NCW, A2, Lemonman?
WAT is on vacation
RIF is home from active duty and REAL busy moving house an dgetting his eldest ready for uni !
NCW is in a dark place right now, but checks in from time to time
Aussie is a new dad ! And recovering from wounds sustained on active duty
LM has cut down on forum time

And me ? I have POJA'ed my time on here with Squid and as a result am doing a WHOLE LOT Less here and MORE loving my baby as she wants. We're in a patch of accelerated recovery success right now, and needs all my focus.

And I can't really advise you darl'...'cos I don;t think Phil's worth your worry , pain and effort from what I've read. With no kids if I were you ? I wouldn't lift another finger to get him back. He know swhat he has to do, and it's not talk and tears.
But thats not very MB is it ? Still i won't lie. I'll read back and see if i can be more constructive.

*edited * no, just read back and it sall words , flower. WS talk convincing [censored] all the time. And we BS want to believe them.

Tell him your boundaries and give him space to meet them.

Do NOT discount the price of admission back into your heart and your life.

All blessings

You know my advice on this one <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> and it's alot like Orchids <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (((HUGS)))

Lordy! Looks like Sally may have to find herself ALL new men, of the real AND virtual variety! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

bOb, you have me in gut-busting belly laughs! SEE? You share perspective like no other. PLEASE don't take time away from Squid on account of this latest. You know the score and I think it's still much the same despite the pretty and seemingly sincere words from Phil. I think our friend weaver has a pretty good bulls**t detector. She'll set me straight if her nose gets a whiff no?

Of course if you see something I don't then that's different... I trust your intuition. Doesn't mean I'm not still pig-headed as all get-out, but I do LISTEN to what you say... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> and in case I haven't said so lately, you have been a real life-saver and I've appreciated your input and time greatly. Thank you!

**edited** Read it. Got it. Understood it. Will go get my waders for future encounters. But, just in case there is more than fluff there, I'm gonna let this play out some more... Thnx bOb and no, there is no such thing as a marked down Sally A!!!


Sal

Sally - Well, I don't know what to think. But I do think you are too good for Phil. Sorry. Do you really want to be with a man who is not sexually attracted to you. Come on, I've had guys from 12 to 80 hit on me, and I am very plain.

If it is the baby thing, why not go to a sperm bank, and pick out a good donor?

I don't like that advice, Believer. It downplays the value of the father relationship...as if they aren't needed. Even though single parents can do a good job, when forced do to circumstance...I don't think it is responsible to choose to be one. Even if Phil isn't 'the one'...Sally still can meet someone else and have a child or two for several more years yet.

I didn't get that Phil is actually not sexually attracted to Sally. I didn't read that he couldn't 'perform' either.
I did read it to mean that Phil started to feel like he wasn't 'enough' for her...that she was insatiable and he felt a bit inadequate or lacked the desire to put any more effort into it. Whether is was multiple 'O's or some extra kinky stuff...I don't know.

But I understood that Sally seemed to do a pretty good job of reassuring him that it wasn't true...but that, in fact, he was 'enough' and she didn't need sex as much as he thought she did and that it would be great to just touch , cuddle, and sleep together. It was a misunderstanding...or communications got crossed up. The sexual relationship started to change and he probably is putting a lot of the blame on their differences in needs or enthusiasm when I think it probably had more to do with his A and the admiration and difference he felt in the early stages of the A.

The A being over and he realized it wasn't all it was cracked up to be and he also seems to be realizing that Sally has a lot more redeeming qualities and he is remembering more of the positives again.

Of course, her having the less needy, clingy attitude and being more in the moving forward, I can survive mode has helped in that she has done a good 180 and it has the affect of seemingly attracting him back. He still has some insecurities...probably as to whether she can really put it all behind her and stay the better Sally than the one that turned him off when he was early in his A.

I see no harm in keeping the door open if that is what Sally wants.

Maybe Harley's 'Fall in Love, Stay in Love' would help them. Or 'The One' which goes into the buyers, renters freeloaders explanation, would help sort it out.

If they do get back together there is also the MB weekend and followup or the packet to work on it at home that may help.

Hiya Dorry, long tired day! :-) Thanks for the hug :-)

believer, thanks for saying you think I'm too good for Phil... I will try and take that in the context you said it and not argue too much. No sarcasm or humor about that. I'm just feeling a little frayed and not like arguing, which is probably a good thing because we all know I can argue... :-(

OK, in some ways, maybe I am too good for Phil. But for what it's worth, in some ways he is too good for me. He has purity of soul that I really don't have, rotten actions and all. I am not attributing character he doesn't have. I am calling it like I see it and I don't have a better explanation.

He doesn't need saving. He needs a cosmic kick in the head.

At the risk of sounding gross, Phil's aversion to me isn't precisely 'no sexual attraction'. He's attracted. He gets aroused. He probably has been aroused at least once every time he has seen me since he left. It's everything from when he senses arousal to when he finally has non-arousal that makes him NOT WANT to be aroused, not want to be aroused with me. And I have to believe that is fixable too. If only he would be willing to try.

And for any who think I am the most conceited gal on the planet, let me say for the millionth time, it's not about looks. I know what I look like - that's all. My looks obviously weren't enough to keep Phil from wandering! If I could make a sweeping statement to all women and men who think their WSs would want them if only they were taller, thinner, were better looking, more physically fit, had longer hair, shorter hair, bigger boobs and so on -- It's not your looks or what you do with them. Look at all of the gorgeous celebrities that are dumped by wanderers...

And btw, believer, I've seen your picture on the photo thread and you can teach me how to ride a Harley any time! Or at least how to look good faking it! Plain shmlain.

Hell no, no sperm bank for me. I am a woman who does not decide on single motherhood as a starting place. Not because I think it's wrong - I don't - but because I don't think I have sufficient anything to be a good parent alone. I'm a team player in most things that don't actually have much to do with sport! Even if I like to be the captain of the team, I still like a team. I want to start off like most other women with a husband first, baby after.

Is that so wrong? I realize I may never have a child and I also realize that any child that does come into my life is not likely to be of my body, and I do try to not moan too much about wanting to be a mom. But it's not my first priority. I would rather be a good person to other people's children than have one child of my own that lacked a good life because I wasn't a good enough parent alone. With a partner I think I would be OK, but alone, with no family at all? What if something happened to me? Who would take care of my child then? So no sperm banks.

Sal

Trix, we posted at the same time. Girfriend you can be about as subtle as a brick and MAN! DO I really appreciate that!!! THANK YOU!!!!!

Yes, I was clingy and depressed and not functioning well and actually I am still not functioning all that well but I am doing a fairly decent fake for the external world. It's enough to get my by until I can get home and fall apart in privacy.

I will keep a close watch on that. I am trying to be better but I'm really not doing too great. It's all a big act and I know it, but Phil doesn't know it and hopefully by the time it would ever be an issue I wouldn't be faking any more...

The sex thing isn't a kink. No chips, dips, Pimms or whips. The aggression factor begins and ends with such vanilla tastes as liking to be on top, which is also a factor of size as much as sexual agression -- I'm just not very big, liking sex in quantity, and often, quality, and actually enjoying my own body and Phil's body.

And nope, I'm NOT insatiable but in every relationship one person has a stronger desire and in this relationship with Phil the stronger desire is mine. Sadly, when asked directly, Phil also admits to knowing that he pleases me intensely. He knows. For whatever reason his problem is more one of not trusting that it's for real but he really does know it's for real.

It's Phil's desire problem in his head. At least with me he knows the physical arousal part is there for him. His problem is not physical. We both know that now. We'll have to see whether he is willing to get the help with and for me and US or not. Maybe he will never get the help??

We will never know if he had sexual problems with OW but I am willing to bet that if she did stop chasing him quite so much, that sex was part of that equation. I'm not so humble to think suddenly, he had no sex problems in his brain at all...

Despite what Phil says about any of it, I think his upbringing does come into play. He wasn't raised with the healthiest views on sex or commitment. He was raised to revere all women the way he reveres his mother. No offense to the men who revere their wives like that but for me, that isn't going to work. I am not Phil's mother. I don't want to be regarded like that even if it is revery.

I am not the virgin Mary!!! I could be very satisfied with some sex and some cuddling, holding, non-sexy loving and kissing and touching. But I want SOME sexual fulfillment thank you very much! We went from the all you could eat buffet to begging for scraps and I'm kind of done on that.

Not how or what I say to Phil, but among friends and cohorts, I'm trying to be blunt and clear. You all are helping me formulate. It doesn't help me to be prissy and hide... So those really are the facts. I'm not a nymphomaniac. Tsk tsk tsk. But I'm willing to change. :-)


Sally

Hopefully you can strike a balance in that.

I understand differences in desire. It seems to be out of balance in many a relationship/marriage. It would hopefully be a POJA thing. And even if a couple starts out with a similar level of desire over the course of the marriage that can change back and forth. Sometimes it seems like when one wants more the other pulls back and then when one is wanting less then the other desires more...and on and on. That can ebb and flow throughout a marriage.

Once you have a child that could change for you as you focus on early motherhood. That can be intense for the first two years of a child's life...especially if you commit to breastfeeding. Then there are the hormonal changes...

Some of this stuff is all part of the for better or worse vows. It really doesn't sound like your problems are insurmountable.

At first when you said Phil wasn't interested in having a sexual relationship with you again, I thought you were going to say he thought he was now gay. Glad I was wrong.

Sally,

Heard this once. Think about it.

====

Young King Arthur was ambushed and imprisoned by the monarch of a
neighboring kingdom. The monarch could have killed him but was moved
by Arthur's youth and ideals. So, the monarch offered him his freedom,
as long as he could answer a very difficult question. Arthur would
have a year to figure out the answer and, if after a year, he still
had no answer, he would be put to death.

The question?....What do women really want? Such a question would
perplex even the most knowledgeable man, and to young Arthur, it
seemed an impossible query. But, since it was better than death, he
accepted the monarch's proposition to have an answer by year's end.

He returned to his kingdom and began to poll everyone: the princess,
the priests, the wise men and even the court jester. He spoke with
everyone, but no one could give him a satisfactory answer.

Many people advised him to consult the old witch, for only she would
have the answer.

But the price would be high; as the witch was famous throughout the
kingdom for the exorbitant prices she charged.

The last day of the year arrived and Arthur had no choice but to talk
to the witch. She agreed to answer the question, but he would have to
agree to her price first

The old witch wanted to marry Sir Lancelot, the most noble of the
Knights of the Round Table and Arthur's closest friend!

Young Arthur was horrified. She was hunchbacked and hideous, had only
one tooth, smelled like sewage, made obscene noises, etc. He had never
encountered such a repugnant creature in all his life.

He refused to force his friend to marry her and endure such a terrible
burden, but Lancelot, learning of the proposal, spoke with Arthur.

He said nothing was too big of a sacrifice compared to Arthur's life
and the preservation of the Round Table.

Hence, a wedding was proclaimed and the witch answered Arthur's
question thus:

What a woman really wants, she answered....is to be in charge of her
own life.

Everyone in the kingdom instantly knew that the witch had uttered a
great truth and that Arthur's life would be spared.

And so it was, the neighboring monarch granted Arthur his freedom and
Lancelot and the witch had a wonderful wedding.

The honeymoon hour approached and Lancelot, steeling himself for a
horrific experience, entered the bedroom But, what a sight awaited
him. The most beautiful woman he had ever seen, lay before him on the
bed. The astounded Lancelot asked what had happened

The beauty replied that since he had been so kind to her when she
appeared as a witch, she would henceforth, be her horrible deformed
self only half the time and the beautiful maiden the other half.

Which would he prefer? Beautiful during the day....or night?

Lancelot pondered the predicament. During the day, a beautiful woman
to show off to his friends, but at night, in the privacy of his
castle, an old witch? Or, would he prefer having a hideous witch
during the day, but by night, a beautiful woman for him to enjoy
wondrous, intimate moments?

What would YOU do?




THINK of your answer before you continue....


















Noble Lancelot, knowing the answer the witch gave Arthur to his
question, said that he would allow HER to make the choice herself.

Upon hearing this, she announced that she would be beautiful all the
time because he had respected her enough to let her be in charge of
her own life.

Now....what is the moral to this story?

The moral is.....

If you don't let a woman have her own way things are going to get ugly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

=======

Sally,

I have a penchant for story jokes. This is a fav of mine. But humor is funny, as in funny-strange. The best humor is a distortion or exaggeration of reality. There is a stark reality at the core of all good humor.

So what is at the core? You need to be in charge of your own life. Phil will be a part, or not. You can change it for him, or not. But YOU CHOOSE what will make YOU happy.

Scratch that, it is deeper in meaning than that. That almost sounds selfish. Better this way... DON'T do that which will make you UNHAPPY for the sake of pleasing him. I like that better.

Part of me says Phil has HIS agenda first yet in his mind. It sounds like it is a lot about what he can't do. Part of me is hopeful for you from this post. At least you are in there somewhere. A far cry from where you were not but a couple of weeks ago.

I will give you the same advice I give all. When you have clarity of thought - set your boundaries. Then they will SERVE you in your troubled times. You are not a slave to your boundaries, they SERVE YOU.

My story (actually joke) talks of knights. Know how they knew to do the right thing? They thought about what they would choose when they didn't have to make the choice. Then when the tough choices came, they already knew what to do. Or as near as they could imagine.

Writing what you wrote is good, just in doing that, you are "trying Phil on for size." Your next step is to ask if it fits or not. What part is uncomfortable. If the relationship were a dress, where would it have to be let out and where would it have to be taken in.

Then you must realize the tailor may not get everything right. Phil may or may not "fit." In your NEXT clear time, then ask yourself how important the perfect fit is.

I never asked my STBX to be perfect. But I did have some places where a good fit was required. She stopped fitting in those places. Time for a new pair of pants for old NCWalker. Her choice, my boundary, case closed.

Where do you stand with Phil? Read what you wrote again and again. In fact, go back and read some of your own earlier stuff. Is Phil fitting better? Maybe it is good enough. If it is RIGHT NOW, keep a door open for him.

And remember, he has to choose too.

Don't take this recent encounter as good or bad, for neither good nor bad has come of it. It was an exercise in boundaries, yours AND his. How did he fit?

In my prayers,

NCWalker

Walker - you're a genius. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

WoW NCW...

Now that is food for thought

Not much time to write and I don't have any deep insights. But his comment about not being able to have a physical relationship with you led me to the awful suspicion that perhaps he's picked up an STD.

Dobie

Trix, yes, Phil is VERY not gay. Thanks be! Not a repressed homosexual. He is merely repressed. Aiieeee.

Dobes, while he certainly may have an STD now and THAT makes me sick just thinking about it... trying not to have any more Phil w/OW nightmares thanks.... I think Phil was talking plainly about his mental hang-up which, in my non-professional opinion, really has become an aversion.

NC, glad you stopped by, I've missed you guy... Thanks for the words and the joke, which I loved! Yeah, I know, the choice is his. And mine too. He just sent an e-mail and I'm a babbling mess all over again. Sorry to break down mid-post but I'm losing it... confused and dorky.

I'll copy it and let everyone give me shaka zulu...

Sal

The letter is:
-------------------------------------------------------------

****** deleted ******

Like the wind, whooosh. Sally posteth, Sally removeth to protect her rear endeth...

Sally wally

Sally - Sorry, he sounds very shallow. I know you don't want to hear it, but you are too good for him. You may think he has some special spirituality, but I don't see it.

Hey believer,

I know my Phil... Certain things anyway. He's not shallow. Well, not any more than shallow than I am. I think he is scared and that's fair since I'm pretty damn scared too.

And it's not only about spirituality. But that is a big factor. We share faith and a belief system. Even as few as five years ago I wouldn't have thought that was so important and now I do. It's really about the man and me with the man. I'm a better person for being his mate and I hope that in reality, he is a better person for being mine.

What's the worst that can happen? My heart will hurt some more? My heart is close to ice now. No loss there. What's the best that can happen? I will be so full of love and joy that I won't regret any spent effort?

No one can truly know if Phil and I are meant to be together or not. I think that he is worth risking my heart some more. I thought he was worth risking my heart 8 years ago. Now is not so different....

Everything is going to be all right.
Sally

Sally
Two questions to answer yourself, without posting up here:

Under what circumstances would you STOP trying to get Phil back ?
and
What would you compromise in order to get Phil back ?

These question shelped me formulate MY boundaries and gave me confidence and a plan customised for my needs.

It doesn;t matter what we think of Phil and his approach to you. It matters what YOU think.

I tell folsk a lot that if a person is happy to live in a certain way, and they do so knowingly and deliberately IT FINE. Not us, Dr Harley or the POPE can tell a person their intelligent life decision is wrong for them.

But Sally, you need to have an unwavering picture of how your self respect and heart need you to live your life, with or without Phil in it.

It's OK to have low boundaries if you decide thats healthy for you. But don't do it out of fear, loneliness or regret.

All blessings