Low, please read this: http://www.dearpeggy.com/secrets.html

What do you think?

Aphelion -

GREAT article. I agree completely.

I think I would not have exposed WH if he had let concerned people know the truth of what was going on. He could have just told people who asked that he was in love with a married woman. Her husband was fighting in Iraq, and she was so upset that she turned to someone else for comfort. Then he left me, and she left her 12 year old daughter.

Instead, when people asked why I didn't attend the barbecue - (OW was there), he told them that he and I no longer had anything in common. There were hundreds of things like this - where people questioned him, and he made it look like I was anti-social.

He continued to malign me behind my back for 6 months, before I even figured out what was going on.

So when a WS can say "Since I've been porking the OP, I realized that I know longer love my spouse", then it will be time for the BS not to expose.

Cymanca - Don't want to threadjack this one...Bottom line is I am dealing with a PA during my marriage that ended in 1999. She had also had EA (which at the time I had no idea what an EA was..)..it turned into a PA after we seperated and Divorced..by her own words "only to hurt you"...D was her idea and a result of unknown (to me) PA...

Doesn't matter anyway..I'm not liking where this whole thread has gone....

OK, I couldn't stay away. Sorry LO.

This snippet of a quote from the dearpeggy site really hits home :


I had a pretty good social circle before I married - friends and family and church. All this insanity started almost immediatly after our marriage, and I didn't know what to do about it. The only person I told, I didn't tell the whole story - and he basicly told me that some people are just like that - and she will settle down in a few months. I didn't talk to him again about it. I became cut off from my family, friends, church - by this silence. Now, WW has more friends and contacts than I have. I have essentially none - except folks on this fine forum - which, fine as they are, is not the same as having real on-the-ground face-to-face friends who are willing to listen to me and support me.

If I had been willing to say - to one and all - what was happening, I, at least, would have been in a much stronger position to deal with this nightmare.

We have another book called "Family Secrets" - which addresses the long-term affects of secrets within a family. The author asserts that secrets within the family damage the entire fabric of the family much more than just having everything out in the open. In talking to my wife about this (during a time when it seemed that the A was off), she was horrified at the idea that one day our daughter would know about it. But, imagine what it would be like if our daughter finds out from somebody else - or hears some rumor? Someday, she will know, one way or the other. Here is book with the same title - apparently about the same subject, but by a different author, I believe.

I'll be quiet again now.

-AD

LO,

Obviously, exposure of the type to which you object has some effect. If it were totally irrelevant, you wouldn't be objecting to it. If, for example, the BS went to the cemetary and talked to his father's grave, you would have no objection (even if other grave's overheard, LOL) - but telling, for example, the realtor that you are selling the house because your wife had an A would be ... "wrong" in your view because of what? Not because the realtor has no influence, but rather because her influence cannot be managed, spun or controlled. The rumor may or may not fly - and it may or may not be distorted in telling. It is out of control. Losing control of the story is something the WS fears. Not knowing who knows and who doesn't - not knowing who to avoid and who to "trust" (to protect the ongoing A) is awkward for the WS, to say the least.

Of course, a BS, obsessed by the pain of the A, can become a bore - just as a cancer patient can (although we don't want to admit it). But, aside from that, I see no problem with widespread exposure.

Thanks, LO. I think you have encouraged me to expose more widely.

-AD

Hmmm....

My case was a little different. My wife had an online EA, which would have turned PA had I not caught onto it when I did. When I confronted her with it, he bought her plane tickets to go live with him, even though the two of them had never met in person!

During the 5 days or so that she was living in the motel while waiting on her flight, I exposed to nearly everyone possible. It wasn't a deliberate attempt to shame her...in truth, I thought our marriage was over, and I was totally devestated and looking for support from friends and family. Later in that same time, I also reached out to her friends and family, in an attempt to get her to talk with them and 'listen to reason'.

Again, there was no intention of attacking her, or shaming her. I merely wanted her to talk with people who could get her to start thinking about what she was doing.

Long story short...she stayed, went through withdrawl, and we've now been a year into recovery. And both of us had some serious concern on what the affects of nearly everyone knowing what happened would be. Would her friends and family hold it against her? Would mine?

You know what...none of that happened. My family helped to support her during her withdrawl...my sister admitted to having had an EA that NONE of us had known about. It helped my wife to understand what she went through, and what she could expect (my sister is still with her H now...she ended the EA on her own when she realized what was going on).

When my wife made her choice to stay, her sister came down a month later to spend time with her...they're closer now than ever.

I would absolutely say that exposure depends on the people involved, and the circumstances of the situation. There is no concrete way to do it. But I would also add....NEVER expose in anger. If you are doing so with any vindictive feelings, you'd better stop and think about it, maybe have a conversation with someone you trust with a level head...or better yet, pray about it. Then do what feels right.

The BS has no obligation to keep the WS's secret's private. They may be private, but they are part of the BS's life too. I think the BS is the best judge of how much privacy they need for themself.

-AD

*AD, shouldering his bludgeon, strides away confidently.*

IMO...If WS don't want their dirty laundry aired they shouldn't dirty it.

But I do agree, its a very powerful and if I was to do it again I would have been a bit more compassionate in my use of exposure. At the time though I was in shock, pain, agony, and was seeking help from any and all who would listen. I believe my main intent was on healing myself not hurting my WS. Although I do remember the feelings of revenge and anger so I'm sure it was motivator as well.

How you expose may depend on whether you think infidelity is just "a mistake" or a moral crime or something in between. Would you keep another "crime" committed by your spouse a secret? I think we find WS think of it as "a mistake" whereas the BS think of it as more of a "crime". I guess like everything else it depends upon perspective.

[Edited to say] And by the way I don't think I "abused" my use of exposure. I think I had every right to do what I did BUT I do think I could have shown more compassion for my WS. I do try to live my life with compassion even for those who I do not agree with and think have made very wrong choices and decisions...

Miker

Mmmm. Me thinks you ask a question that you're not interested in hearing the answer to.

Why are you even here, Aph, if not to learn whys and hows and how to get past it?

Aph, it really is the rare individual whose capable of the kind of manipulation that you're assuming every WS is engaging in during their recovery. Most of us sincerely want to find our way back. There are those here and out in the real world who don't seem to want that to happen.



If you really believed this, then the only thing you could possibly be angry with is that your wife beat you to the punch. I'll ask you the same question you asked on the other thread...why didn't YOU have an affair? It's obviously not a win-win situation.



Okay, I won't. You didn't ask, but I'll tell you anyway. At the point that I had the affair, I didn't compromise ANY of my morals to make it happen...those WERE my morals. No muss, no fuss, no agony.

Finding out how I got there has been a painful, yet interesting journey. Finding out how I can keep it from happening again is the payoff.

I would genuinely hope that some BS would take comfort in seeing that there are WSs here who sincerely want to become the people their spouses need them to be. By seeing us struggle to come back, they gain insight into those they hope will make the same journey.

I'm not here seeking affirmation from anyone here, although I'll admit that it's nice to get no matter where it comes from.

If anything I write is useful to you, good. If not, discard it and move on. I still hope you're able to move past your cynicism and find joy again. I'm sincerely sorry for what your wife has done to you.

Oh, so well said Owl. Thank you.

For the record everyone...I'M NOT ADVOCATING SECRECY!!! I agree with exposure...but along the lines of what Owl has written above.

I do not agree that the WS has given up their right to general privacy unless they have abused that.
*edit to add* I don't believe there is such a right between spouses. I do think it's reasonable to expect that spouses will protect the general privacy in matters outside of that spousal relationship.

Yes, the brand of condoms, my favorite position, the length of my...well, you know. All of those details are completely unnecessary for anyone to know. They are private matters, not secret matters.

Do any of you have private (not secret) issues that you would be embarrassed about if your spoused told everyone at church, work, or school?

I'll reiterate...exposing the secret is fine and necessary. Exposing the private is mean and vindictive and NOT inthe interest of restoring the relationship.

Will the BS always get it right? Of course not! This is a messy business being attended to by hurting people. So I advocate grace...and lots of it on the part of the WS when they feel like a "private" matter was shared that should not have been.

What is it about this topic that some find so troubling?

Low

Low ... you asked what was bothersome .... here it is for me...


This is what bothered me ... what OW's husband did is none of your business ... none. This was HIS exposure of HIS marriage ... and you cannot rightfully critique his missteps ... oops ... I guess you picked the wrong fella to cuckold <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

see?

Pep

But you miss my point, Pep...

I'm really not bothered by all of this. I knew I had it coming and I'm cool with that. He owes me nothing.

Why does everyone keep thinking I'm complaining about about what happened to me? I'm not.

Can we not objectively examine another's behavior and see what we can learn from it? He just happens to be an example I'm quite familiar with.

Contrary to your assertion, Pep, I CAN rightfully critique ANY set of facts I choose. His behavior was fact.

The point is that IF he had any intentions of putting his marriage to HIS wife back together, this type is exposure could make it pretty hard for her. I think it may have been the deciding factor for her, but I don't know for sure.

And it was entirely unnecessary. His intention was to be mean and vindictive. The fact that it did impact me is essentially irrelevant.

If your objective is to be mean and vindictive, then, by all means, tell everyone everything all the time.

How do you know his intentions were mean and vindictive?

Miker

Forgive me for not repsonding earlier on this, AD. I just realized that's it's a perfect oppotunity to illustrate what I'm trying to say.

A few things are key in your example.

1) Are you still working on trying to put your marriage back together? If not, the point is moot and it doesn't matter what you say to anyone.

2) You are not selling the house because your W had an affair. You are selling the house. Period. The realtor has no need to know ANYTHING about it unless he's in a position to influence the end of the affair. Such an exposure only creates unnecessary gossip that BOTH of you will have to ultimately overcome. That's why it's counterproductive.

Ok, I don't KNOW that...those are just words used by a young man who knew me after an encounter with him. So, more correctly, I was told by someone he spoke with that he was being "mean, bitter, and vindictive."

It does sound quite logical. I certainly don't blame him. I can think of no other reason he would have shared the things he did. Can you?

I think you are overstepping the line here buddy. This may be "your" thread, but this is a public forum. Each reader can decide whether or not the writings of each poster "matter".


WRONG! And how do you pretend to know more about why I'm selling my house than I do?

-AD

Low: “Why are you even here, Aph, if not to learn whys and hows and how to get past it?”

First things first. You didn’t answer my question. Why do you envy me? (You would like being the victim of an unimaginable betrayal?)

I am indeed here to learn the hows and whys of getting past it. It being a rather minimalist reference to the after-effects of a ten-year long adultery with multiple false recoveries.

MB and its methods (and the wonderful people here) are a terrific resource. But I also use IC, MC and many other tools, including my faith. This is, Low, the most difficult work I will ever do.

But lately, I am wondering why I continue this struggle. And a struggle it is. FWW obviously does not love me as much as I love her. She obviously does not care about me or respect me enough to not commit adultery. She can look me in the eye, cry real tears, tell me how sorry she is and continue right on doing it (there’s that little word it WS so like to use, again). Even though I think the A is finally over, she still holds back and lets me do all the heavy lifting in recovery.

If I were to stop, or hold back even a little of myself, what then?

Low: “If you really believed this, then the only thing you could possibly be angry with is that your wife beat you to the punch. I'll ask you the same question you asked on the other thread...why didn't YOU have an affair? It's obviously not a win-win situation.”

Well, it looks like a win-win situation to the average BS. How could it not?

I have not had an A for the following reasons (can you tell I’ve though about it a lot):

1. Morals. It is a sin. And a really big one. In the top ten list.
2. Ethics A. It is internally inconsistent. It breaks a serious promise (a binding contract, in fact) made to oneself, one’s spouse, one’s family and to one’s community. It is also a promise to as yet unborn children of the marriage.
3. Ethics B. It is externally inconsistent. It shamelessly uses other people for ones own pleasure. At a fundamental level it makes other people disposable.
4. It immeasurably hurts all the children involved and sets them up to do the same when their turn to decide right from wrong comes along.
5. It would hurt my W, whom I love. Whom I have never stopped loving. Why would I hurt anyone I love when I can avoid it? Even if it’s hard work to avoid it?
6. I would surely get caught. I’m not able to lie, dissemble and misdirect very well at all. Especially in something this big and important.
7. I know I would become totally committed to any OW. I would not carry on in secret. If I fell in love worth harming my M, I would move heaven and earth to make that love right. No sleazy, secret A for me. All or nothing. Thus, I protect my heart as I promised to do per item 2.

Every cost-benefit analyses I can imagine come out negative. I don’t even have to go past item 1, above, to get my answer.

I would like to point out I have had a number of blatant opportunities, too. One was on a business trip just a few weeks after D-Day 1. If ever I had the means for justification it was then. And I have an opportunity with a very nice widow here at work, right now. But, I would be using her, even though she might want to be used. So I can’t (see item 3).

I can imagine me in an A. But I can’t figure out how it would benefit anyone but me. I guess I am just not that selfish.

Low: “Finding out how I got there has been a painful, yet interesting journey. Finding out how I can keep it from happening again is the payoff.”

That statement deserves respect. I wish my FWW would say something similar, and mean it. Thanx.

With prayers,

Yes.

Sorry, AD, I think you took what I wrote very wrong, but I can see how you did...

I wasn't saying that what YOU had to say to ME didn't matter because you weren't putting your M back together. I was saying that what the BS says to others about his WS doesn't matter if they're not trying to rebuild. They have no reason to be careful. Hope that helps.


Again, my point is that the realtor doesn't have to know this. if I were a realtor, I wouldn't care WHY you were selling your house...only that you were.

I don't want to argue with you, AD

And this is why I envy you, Aph. You have this going in your favor. I didn't get any of this right and I hurt a lot of people. Things are different...forever. How I wish it had never happened.

That's why I envy you.