I agree with HealingT4J...I never plan on telling anyone in our families. This is my H and my business. And together we are working through this.

I know my friend 2 dislikes it, but I think you should read just about everything you can get your hands on right now. So again, I suggest "The Monogamy Myth", not that it is an excuse for the poor choices our WS's made, but to show what an epidemic A's are today, just look at the member count here on MB's!

CKW

It's funny reading your posts, I do see myself. I have no malice in my body for anyone. I guess that is why this hurts so much... how could she think so little of our friendship. In all my heart I do wish that she would call. No I will not call or send a letter I will not make the first more... (Well we did send a card on the death of FIL) I understand the importance of NC... It affects all of us. I have seen the few times we have had contact with her H that it has put me in a bad place reminding me of where we were and what we have lost... I also know that his contact has often hit me at a very bad time and it causes me to tail spin. I would not want to do that to them. I know how hard we have had to work...

She is the one with answers to my questions, as my H does not. I keep saying ... does it really matter... We never talked about my feelings in the past... she knew I knew and I was upset and she never said a word. This pains me. >> But no matter what we argued over she never said sorry... there was more than one time where we fought and I had to go and say I was sorry.... It has caused me to question that this was all really about my H and never about me...

I know great things happen with Christ... but I feel in this case there has been too much betrayal.... I do hate that I feel I have the controlling and if I just say all will be OK then we can all go be friends again... But I feel like fool me once shame on me... fool me twice... fool me three times.... No more... Even though I have a very forgiving heart and I really am a push over...

It is very sad that they are heading for divorce. I know that is why I kicked her hubby and said you must get into counseling if their marriage does not make it I will feel so sick>> I will also worry that my hubby will then have to think about who he would want to keep house with... he says I do not have any worries...

I hear you about divorce easier... I find myself doubting his every word and going back over every time we were together of the past year. There are still days I wonder if we are going to make it... what if while going through all of this counseling to find that it can't be fixed... he can't be faithful?

How did you go about mending the friendship? Did you reach out?


Pastor says that is where we made our mistake... guess how the E tank got empty in thinking we were being good Christians we put everyone else first, never each other.

Thanks for listening>>

SVB

Beth>>
Wow>> that can not be easy... to have them living so very close. I take it from what you have written you and FBF never talked about her feelings... it sounds like they really are not budging at all... especialy to say so many unkind things to their children....

It is so very hard as we miss them so very much... I do find myself thinking about them all the time... hoping all is going well and that they are going to make it... knowing this is a small town... but will we ever meet.... Do I really want to? How do I react when I bump into her....

I know I could never be mean like you have described from the OMS and that is so not nice. I do not believe that I could never be that mean... we all have done bad things... it just happens that some of those bad things cause some people much more pain. As much as I want my H to be guilt free ... he is not... But that does not give me the right to make either of their lives a mess.... that is just so awful!


SVB

SVB, yes I did reach out first. I actually sent her a text message the morning after H told me about the A and told her that I knew, that I was a fool, and that I forgave her. Sounds a little soon considering I didn't even know then if she was fully repentant, but I didn't forgive her based on anything she did. I forgave her because I knew I had to, or face God's judgment of me based on how I'd not forgiven her. It's taken an almost daily re-forgiving since then. We communicated via a series of emails and letters (I made the first contact because she wanted to just leave me alone--fear of what I'd do maybe?), but when she went in front of our church to confess her sin and ask for the church's forgiveness, I walked up and sat next to her as I'd done with my husband a few days prior, put my arm around her, and held her as she sobbed. I wasn't able for a long time to reconstruct any portion of the friendship. But one day I just decided that my emotions had been eating at me long enough, I sat down and prayed for the Lord's guidance and just started writing. What poured from my heart was pain, but with an aching need to make things right as best we could. It's still a work in progress. Contact pretty soon won't be an issue since my husband is being transferred overseas and she and her sons will be moving closer to their family. But it is nice to be at a point now where I don't feel incredibly awkward when I run into her in town--the sinking feeling is finally gone and that is WONDERFUL!

Hugs to you, this is not an easy road to travel, especially when we're dealing with friends so close they could be family.

You are amazing.... WOw... you did the text message.... I am just in hold... somedays really feeling sad. Some days missing her frindship more than missing more than his... I am not sure which is the deeper betral.

I do htink I want to forgive and work on building a differnet friendship... but she has not asked... I do not see her asking that is just not the way she is... so I take this not asking as a sign that she does not care... maybe not ture... but I also know... I need her to work on her marriage and I need to work on my marriage. When I think of her and where we are it makes me very very sad. I fight to pick up the phone and call. I can nof forgive when she has not asked....

I will not call.... I know how little she thought of me... to go chasing after my husband... he was more improtant to her than me... OH well~!

SVB

Today is just not a good day...

SVB, have you thought about writing to her? Maybe being able to READ *over and over again, if necessary* how you feel will kick her into gear. Do you know that she and her H aren't working on their marriage? Is he brushing the A under the rug, so to speak? If so, then the way you handle things with her may be her only brush with reality. An email might be the best way to go about initiating contact with her--something simple and to the point but she needs to know that you won't be calling her even though you still care about her because you don't feel she's sorry for the pain she's caused and that's a major hurdle in your healing process. You could tell her that you know she has a habit of avoiding confrontation but this time there's no way around it, the offense was far too serious. Just make it clear that you can't move forward right now in how you feel regarding her because you haven't gotten anything even close to a sincere, heartfelt apology. If she cares, she'll respond.

HOWEVER, all that said, you DO need to make your marriage top priority. Friendships are secondary, they're not as important as your relationship with your husband. See, she may have gone chasing after him but he did just as much to harm your marriage as she did. In fact, nothing she could have done would have been ANY harm to your marriage if he'd not been receptive to her advances, am I right? Does he know why he was so vulnerable to this and why he didn't apparently even try to stop it from happening?

Just a thought....you mentioned that your husband was more important to her than you.....your feelings are very familiar to me, and while I have to admit I'm still struggling with that very thing, something that my H and my friend both said may shed some light on things for your situation, or at least give you something to consider asking your H about. My H told me that during the A, even during the times they were alone together where nothing *wrong* happened, it was almost like I didn't exist to him. Someone else here on MB (sorry, can't remember who) has said that their spouse didn't stop loving them, he/she just forgot for a while. That's a sentiment that my H has echoed. No, it did NOT make me feel any better, in fact, that didn't do much more than reinforce for a moment my feelings of complete worthlessness. However, it did help me in some teeny way to realize that while thoughts of me should have completely overshadowed any other woman in his mind, this wasn't about me at all. It had nothing to do with me. It had nothing to do with my faults at all, because many couples who struggle with the same things we do never go through the pain of infidelity--especially not with close friends. What it had to do with was the lack of personal boundaries and standards in my husband and friend. Selfishness--the right to "have their cake and eat it too"--was at the root of the A. Yes, they both had emotional needs that weren't being met in our marriages, but so did her husband and I...and neither he or I was unfaithful. I guess when it all comes down to it, what's painful for a betrayed spouse and friend who choose to stay and work on the relationship is that WE didn't do anything wrong but WE are the ones who are now supposed to believe that we are now important to the betrayer when we once were of so little importance that we could be "forgotten" and totally disregarded. Ouch.

Well>> my world fell apart three months ago today. The 15th of the month used to always be pay day. Not any longer. It is not a day for celebration... a day of quiet mourning. I keep wishing things were normal again. While I think we have made progress... it has not been an easy road we both have IC and MC... just lingo for our new world.

Our anniversary is in two weeks... 16 years and broken promise to celebrate. I know he is looking to our anniversary as a turning point a new begining... has even taken my wedding band and engagement ring into be cleaned up, made new. He has romantic plans of giving them back with a new promise. I am stuck with what to get him. My heart is still so tender. I still stip away and cry mostly at night. IC says this is normal... Just when I think I have this beat... it beats me....

I saw her yesterday first time in three months... I know she saw me... we made eye contact. I had to leave. I turned and walked away... went to the car and cried. I know I should be able to get past this and I am so jealouse of you Camo. On my end it seems there is no hope. I know rather than worry about the pain she has caused me I need to let go of that and know that will never be again and I need to simply try and focus only on my marriage. I still find my self hoping she will call and wondering what will happen the next time we meet. I want to be able to go up to her and make small talk... but I am hurt that she can not be bothered to call. It makes it quite clear to me that we are done... no more friends. She has moved on and I need to as well. She has caused so much pain. I still fight the urge to call her ... but I know I need to give it up.

I know there are no easy answers but... I so wish there were. I did start a letter to her... knowing that I would not send it... but hopeful that it would help to clear my head... no such luck>>

WHy is it so very hard??

SVB

So Very Blind,
You have said so many things that I have been feeling. It has been a year and a month since I found out that my H had been having an A with a family friend. Like you, we were all best buds and have taken vacations with each other for more than 15 years. In fact, I found out about the A while we were all on vacation together. I didn't tell anyone for 3 weeks while I checked out all the details to make sure that what I thought was going on really was. I managed to lose 18 pounds in three weeks and neither of them noticed. I have a few extra pounds, but the loss of 18 should have been apparent.

The EA affair with my H started before she was married to the man she eventually cheated on. My H and I had been married almost 5 years at that point. We were the couple everyone wanted to be, and I didn't think we had any problems. We never fought and seldom disagreed on anything. About a year after we all started hanging out together, my H and I had a baby. Of course, after the baby, I was more tired than usual, but that is the only thing I can think of that was different.

I suspected sparks early on, as did her boyfriend/husband and we both confronted them at separate times and were assured they were "just friends". The OW and her BF actually broke up over it, which I did not know until recently, but she begged him to take her back and he did. I, too, am a trusting person and very much a pushover, so I believed my H when he said there was nothing going on. I had no reason not to, even though I thought she was too friendly with my H. Unfortunately, I brushed it off to the fact that that is just the way she is, with everyone. He is also a flirt. I knew from stories that she had told that she was somewhat promiscuous, so I should have been more cautious but I don't like to think people are capable of doing what she did. I was brought up in a very religious household and my H is the only one I ever dated or slept with and she knew it and I think it was a game to her to go after him. But, at the time, she lived 100 miles away, and what did I have to be worried about? She visited often and we continued to build our friendship. We did many things with both of their families, but not so much my H and mine. They married in '92 and I was secretly thrilled because I thought some of the flirting would end. I became pregnant soon after the wedding, which my H and I were both in, and apparently that is when the PA started. Disgusting, isn't it, that you would enter into a marriage when you have feelings for someone else's husband? My H can't remember/won't say when they had sex the first time, but he says it was after DD was born. She says it was after her DD was born, 5 months later. Her H and I talked a lot in the beginning to swap stories and see if they were jiving, but it became very hard to get out of "the dark hole" whenever we conversed. Her stories changed so much that he was having a really hard time. We occassionally check up on each other through his family, which I remain in contact with, but it is still hard.

Her H told her from the beginning that they could salvage the marriage. They went to MC for about 6 weeks but they ended it when she didn't want to go anymore. They are still married, but since they do live 100 miles away (thank God) I don't really know how things are going. Yes, I care. I want them to stay married. His family is here, so there is still a chance I could run into her, but thankfully haven't so far.

I moved my H's things to his brothers and changed the locks on the doors before I confronted him, knowing that he would deny everything. Amazingly, he didn't. He stayed at his brothers for about 2 weeks before we decided to make a go of it. We have been in MC since then, although I don't think we have been productive for the past few months. I do feel like my H and my relationship is definitely better, but I still have huge trust issues with him and am still very saddened by her betrayal. Was it real or was she just using me? Her H believes my H was using him, although I truly believe my H loved him like a brother (they share a birthday). My H and OW both maintain that they were living a secret life and that they never though of us. I have a hard time with that as well. How can you come home to me after having been with her and not think about what you have done? Did they never think of what would happen if they were caught? Our daughters were best friends. Their son idolized my older son. And now it is all gone. All of us lost our "friends," as well as the wonderful relationship we had with their families, immediate and extended.

IN my search for answers, I've read all of Dr. Harley's books and found them to be quite helpful. I've read assorted other books and literature as well, but there is nothing out there that deals with the loss of the friend in an A. However, Janis Abrahms Spring's book "How Can I Forgive You?" did help me somewhat. My upbringing told me I had to forgive her, but it's very hard because she has not earned it. She has not contacted me and told me she is sorry. She's done nothing. I don't know how she feels, but from the information I do get, I don't think she is sorry about the A, I think she is just sorry about getting caught. My H did try and tell her H how sorry he was through a letter, but that didn't work well, so I didn't want to take that approach with her. If we are going to have contact, it needs to be face to face. I want to see her eyes and her body language. Do I still want to be friends? No, but I need to hear what she has to say.

What I HAVE done is accept that it has happened and tried to move on, even though I still think I deserve a lot more answers. AS I tell the therapist, my puzzle isn't complete. It is a continuous, daily battle, but I don't dwell on it like I used to. Yes, I still cry almost every day and I am still looking for answers, but it is better than it used to be.

I will keep you in my thoughts and pray for your healing.

Been There,

BS (me) 42
FWH 45
DDay 7-9-04
In recovery

Dear Stumbliln

Thank you for sharing your story... we are indeed on a very similar road. My heart aches for you> As my heart still aches for me... yes, we are now officiallly in recovery. He came completely clean to me... after three months of just how you said it... pieces not fitting together... Wow was that strange to read that I had used your exact words to IC just like a week before... he had encouraged hubby to come clean and had even been asking him so what have you shared with wife... I kept hearing it was inapproaite really that was all and he would just let it go.

Now so much more makes sence. Yes, I now have all of the painful pieces. Very painful while they did not have intercourse they did have several make out sessions that extended below the clothes level.

They made out in my kitchen, my home nothing was sacred. Then while I was a way for a family funeral she called him... and yep it was one of those converstations... she said... my husbands at work I thought you were coming over... and then proceded to tell my husband she was in her robe and took it off and then proceded to describe her breasts getting him very aroused.... great mental picture... yep my best friend stabbing me in the back... She called my husband and invited him to her home. SLUT!!

Oddlly enough what I have learned is all except this phone call and one make out session happened right in front of her husband and me. Never beind our back... just under the table while we were playing cards and a very long good by hug pressing her boobs into his chest. Always right in front of us... I have come to the conclusion the both were wanting our attention and beggin gto be caught. Yes, now they have been caught.

I needed all the details.. I had to know how we got from point A to point B... I asked IC if the details would be un heathy... I said I know this needs to heal and I know I need to quit picking at the scab and just let it heal... but I can't leave it alone becasue he is not being honest with me just kind of there there dear you don't really want to know.

Well this was the week of our Anniversary and he told most of the truth on Tuesday Night and what he did not tell on Tuessday night he told on Thursday... He says I now have all the truth. Oldly enought we both felt a lot lighter as we walked home Thrusday night... I half felt like skipping. The other half was in a deeper hurt than three months ago. But at least now I felt like we had entered recovery. He now has come clean and told me the whole truth. Things do make a lot more sence now... mainly his really bad behavior... (guilt)

I am even madder at her now (She stopped being my friend and started chasing my husband)... I talked with our pastor about Forgiveness and he siad... not now... too early... siad just to daily give it up to God to open the door and that she will be come ready ... siad it is not my place... I was the one wronged. While yes, my husband and I need to work it out and that is to be primary and to daily ask God to help me to continue to forgive my husband... (he has daily asked for forgiveness, she never has)

It is not an easy road... We are 3 1/2 months past D day and only now begining to heal.... because he was not honest.... things did not make sence and we had to rip open the scab as the wound got an infection. We had to dig and cut some more out to get to the core of the problem... now it is out in the open but that only means we now work toward healing and forgiveness.... Pastor gave us a time line said if she and I had not worked things out in 6 months then we would take other steps.

Yes, our Anniversary was Friday.... 16 years... we almost threw it all away... still hurts... he did infact give me back my rings... with a new promise, that started with I am sorry I failed you.... please come with me and be my wife we will never go down this road again.

So yes, I am now wearing my rings again a signe we are working on us!! I felt bad... I had no present for him... in light of all the new honesty my heart was just too tender.... all I had to offer was me... still holding my heart at a distance from him... still guarding myself!

Stumbling..... good to meet you! So sorry to see you hear!!

I too will be praying for your heart!

SVB

SVB--

Our 20th anniversary is Wednesday. I don't have a gift yet either. I keep thinking that his gift to me will say a lot though. All I have asked for since DDAy is for him to do something that expresses his love for me: a poem, a CD of songs that mean something to our relationship...something like that that will make him dig deep inside, not something that you can just go out and buy (although the diamond necklace at Christmas was quite nice). He wrote her a poem, which is how I found out, so I figure he has the capacity to write me one. Haven't got it yet though and he's had many occassions on which he could have done it.

I am comforted by the fact that your minister doesn't think you have to forgive her yet and that the OW needs to be asking you for forgivness rather than you just giving it to her. Forgiveness toward the OW has been a huge issue in my recovery. How many times have you heard that you have to forgive the OP because it is what you're suppose to do to survive? She certainly hasn't earned it, and I don't expect for her to ask. She hasn't talked to me since before Dday. In her world, it's over and she's going on to the next victim.

I still am not sure how WE got from point A to point B. I don't know how THEY went from EA to PA. What was the trigger? Something must have happened to make them take that step. What made them quit for a while and then start up again? Why the heck did she get married? I could drive myself nuts.

Alright, I am out of time yet again. This work thing just keeps getting in the way. I will try and sort things out and be more coherent next post.

Stumbling