I'm not D'd yet.

(Just starting with that so that none of you ladies think I'm fishing over here).

I'm feeling like I'm so broken and messed up by this marriage, that I won't *ever* be back to my best again.

I know there are some ladies who prefer "project" men.

What's with that?

Is a poor misunderstood, mistreated, good guy, a good project?

Is the entire idea of taking a "broken" man just a bad idea?

In answer to this last question, I would say "yes", even though I'm likely to be one such man.

What do you ladies say? What are the criteria for an acceptable "project" (if you entertain such candidates)?

-AD

I don't want a project. I'm trying to heal myself. I want someone who is constantly working to improve themself too.
To me, a project man as you describe is a codependent behavior, an enabler.
Become an emotionally healthy person and you will attract emotionally healthy people (and learn to avoid those who aren't).

Amen to [color:"blue"] Newly's [/color] post. I know that some people (men or women!) gravitate to those "needy" types...it helps them feel better about themselves cuz they "fixed something". Not me!

[color:"blue"]AD [/color] - you know the MB routine, you've been here a while. Use the stuff you've learned here to improve yourself and you'll probably be fine. In fact, I'm sure you've already improved in many ways since you typed your first post back in 2001, so just continue the process. (And it IS a process, for all of us <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

AD,

You are probably further along than you give yourself credit for....

Been here 4 years? You've HAD to have learned something whether you wanted to or not...lol

Just to get back on topic...No projects for me, thank you very much, and I won't be a project for anyone else.

Did one project and that didn't turn out well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rebornman

Well, I am not female, but I agree with newly/avondale wholeheartedly..your post made me feel actually kinda nauseous (no offense intended AD). Why would any of us want to enter such a relationship, is kinda crazy, instead of being healthy, we deliberately enter an unhealthy, and potentially enabling/co-dependent, unhealhy relationship. AD, you must fix yourself, at least enuf to hold up your end of dating, (one has to date to complete the last steps of healing, cause you need a partner to push/pull with... and that is ok, but you are still responsible for your behavior even then).

People who seek projects, are themselves revealing by that choice they are a very screwed up person. Healthy people only seek other healthy people (or reasonably close, cause none of us is perfectly healthy)...but we should have the basics down pretty good. Not be needy, make committments, be dependable, be honest, discern and meet others needs, communicate our needs, not be obsessive, clingy, jealous, angry etc.

"Why would any of us want to enter such a relationship
Because sometimes that's all we know from our FOO, and what we recognize.
BTW, it helps to have good, emotionally healthy friends around to call you on your behavior - particularly when you don't see the issues clearly.

Thanks folks.

That's the answer I expected. (The right answer in my opinion).

Is my W's OM a project? (a thought that crossed my mind).

I've seen (on MB forums and IRL) women who seem to go after "projects". I was just curious what the ladies on this forum would say.

I think a man has to be a MAN.

Ladies, however, still have the "damsel in distress" model available to them - and it works pretty well on a lot of guys. I think W reeled in both me and OM using that model.

But, you know, it goes both ways. A "project" lady isn't a good prospect either. I've noticed some on MB (and IRL) who seems so shaken by the abuse, mistreatment and etc., that I would have a hard time respecting them after they submitted to all that. I feel uneasy with that conclusion. My W had a terrible childhood. Does that make her forever unfit for marriage? Or, should she have waited until she was, oh, about 50 and "fixed herself" first? Love does not "conquer all", but isn't it worth anything?

-AD

I have a big problem with how you worded your statement here

*I would have a hard time respecting them after they submitted to all that.*

As a child, where for most people abuse starts, it's a matter of survival to submit to abuse, it's not like you have a choice to which family you are born in to, or can really stop the abuse if you wanted, short of destroying your family. (and what child wants to do that???)

However, once your an adult, you do have choices, a choice to heal or a choice not to, and in most cases, people who come from those backgrounds don't really understand the depth of emotional damage that was done.

So they tend to believe that just admitting it happened is healing, as it does bring a sense of relief to share it with someone, but the truth is, that's just the beginning of the healing process.

Now on another note--what does it mean to you to be a "MAN"?

TR,

I'm not always good at "wording" things. When I say that I would have a hard time respecting somebody who submitted to abuse, I'm not talking about my W or about any child - but about an adult. I also repeat that I am very uneasy with feeling that way.

"What does it mean (to me, you asked), to be a "MAN"?

Ah, that is the question that I thought I knew the answer to, but have been proven wrong by the results obtained. I am re-examining this issue - and coming to the uncomfortable conclusion that much of the stereotyped male behaviour that I rejected long ago may serve a purpose - and that I did my self a disservice by rejecting it.

But if you are asking me, and not my STBXW, what are the attributes that a man should have - I would say, first of all, that most of these attributes are simply the attributes of a mature adult - and not in any way limited to men. They would apply to both men and women.

Attributes of a mature person (first):
1) The ability to make a plan and follow it through to the goal.
2) The integrity to do what you have committed to do.
3) Truthfullness.
4) Willingness to admit responsibility for faults and errors - and eagerness to take corrective action.
5) Readyness to accept and accomodate and forgive the faults and errors of others, while allowing those others to carry responsibilty for their own faults.
6) Ability to accept that which is outside of the individual control and adjust to accomodate it. (mature people don't beat their heads against the wall).
7) Understanding of your place in a matrix of people in society - but also the possibility to change that place to a more favorable one.

Attributes of a man:

You tell me. TR.

-AD

AD -

You might be surprised at how easy it is to get "caught" in an abusive situation, even as an adult, and how difficult it can be to get out of it.

I've finally come to realize that my XH was emotionally abusive. My whole family saw that for a long time, but I didn't. Some of it is very, very subtle, and makes the person being abused lose confidence in themselves, without even realizing why.

In my case, I've had to try and answer the question of how I could let someone else do that to me, and why it took me so long to get out. In the end, my XH's A was really the catalyst, and not the emotional abuse (though many would consider As to be emotional abuse as well). The answer for me? Well, I got there in the first place because he did not act like that in the beginning. At the start of our relationship, XH was kind, considerate, attentive, and flattering. Somewhere about halfway through our marriage I was telling him that I felt like I was an afterthought to him. By the end, I was telling him I would be happy to still be an afterthought, because I never entered his mind at all. One example: if we were both working in the kitchen, and he needed something from the cabinet I was standing in front of, he would just push in front of me without saying anything to get what he needed. Not physically abusive - just like I wasn't even there.

Now if he had done that sort of behavior in the beginning, I would have told him not to let the door hit him on the way out. Even if it had jumped directly to that from the normal (saying excuse me, can I get in that cabinet, or asking me to hand him what he needed), I would have told him to hit the road, I'm sure. But it sneaks up on you. He got more and more disrespectful of me over time.

And he did a whole lot of little things that, if I said them out loud to someone, I usually got a response of "oh, yeah, mine does that too," or "yeah, mine does this." In other words, none of the things he did seemed that bad, more like the annoying little things we all do that we learn to tolerate in each other. But when you put them all together, add in the fact that he did these things a lot more often, plus a lot of the things he did were done because he thought it was funny to make me doubt myself, it wears down your self-confidence over time. Not only do you start feeling worthless, but you don't even realize that it's all these things the other person is doing that is making you feel that way. It creeps up on you a little at a time. Most people, including myself, were amazed that I let him do that to me. But it crept up so slowly that I didn't even realize it was happening. I just knew I felt miserable most of the time.

And as far as just leaving a situation like that - well, first of all, it's hard to leave an abusive situation when you don't realize it IS abusive. Also, in my case, I don't really believe in divorce. Infidelity is really the only thing that was a legitimate reason for divorce. And even then, I firmly believe that you should try and get past it, assuming your partner comes around and stops that behavior. When I found out about XHs A, I committed to working on the relationship, even though I'd always said that would be the end of our marriage. I tried to reconcile, even though, from the first day, a part of me really didn't want to at all. Why? Because I believe so firmly in marriage. I made a vow for it to be until one of us died, and I don't break promises easily.

In fact, through most of our attempts at reconciliation, though I did truly try, I really didn't want to. I felt like the A gave me a ticket out of the marriage. So, I chose to stay in an abusive situation, even though I wanted to leave it, because of the strength of my belief in those vows. I've often said it would have been easier if he had physically abused me, because I would not have tolerated that.

So, to bring this a little more back on topic, I think you're right about it not being a good idea to get into relationships with "project" people. But just because someone was in an abusive situation (as an adult) doesn't mean they would be such a "project." It really depends on how they have handled it afterwards, and if they've done some healing.

I know in my case, there was a guy I started talking with after we were separated (but before the divorce was final....and I know now that was a bad idea, but in my defense, at the time I thought the paperwork would be done any day at that time, not knowing my X had managed to screw things up!) I know now that I talked to him longer than I would now; back then, I hadn't gotten much of my self-confidence back. But I had evidently gotten some back, because one day, after we'd been talking for a couple of weeks, and acutally met in person once, we were talking on the phone, and I realized he was treating me much the same way as my X did, and I got very mad. I didn't talk to him again after that.

Now, though, thinking back on all of our conversations, I know that he wouldn't have made it past the first one. Even though he was being nice, and there really wasn't any one thing I can put my finger on that he said at the beginning to make my radar go up, I can tell you it would have.

I guess my point is - yes, sometime people gravitate towards abusive or co-dependant relationships. But just because someone was in one doesn't mean they are that kind of person. In my case, it happened so gradually that I just sort of became "desensitized," and didn't recognize the behavior for what it was. With a little distance from it, however, I can recognize it again, and, in fact, think I am more aware of the subtle signs, and you can be real sure I'm going to be extra cautious from now on. As they say - fool me once, chame on you. Fool me twice - shame on me!

Oxgirl, I think that was a great description of an emotionally abusive relationship. It happens little by little over time, and you can't even believe it. You think you must have understood something wrong.
And Denial plays a big part in staying, your H couldn't possibly be behaving that way could he?
I am so happy to be out of an emotionally abusive relationship; although with kids, I still get subjected to his abuse and odd views of the world.
As I've said before, my goal is to become emotionally healthy myself, so that I can model good behavior for my children (and pray they don't get caught up in the co-dependent cycle again).

AD,

I personally agree with what you wrote, concerning mature adults. Which boils down to treating others with "respect" which falls into so many different categories.

You respect the other person enough to be honest with them,
even if what you say might hurt their feelings. Why? Because you (again respect) them enough to believe they are fully capable of handling their own emotions (self-control) and not lash out in anger because their feelings have been hurt.


I would describe a man as a "servant-leader" one who is not going to ask or expect someone to do something that he, himself is not willing to do.

If he wants a sexually intimate relationship with his wife, he will be emotionally intimate with his wife. He will lead by sharing himself with her on an emotional level, letting her into his world.

If he expects his wife/children to treat him with respect, he treats them respectfully. And they in turn learn to treat others respectfully.

If he wants his wife/kids to pick up after themselves, he picks up after himself. If he isn't picking up after himself, how can he expect his kids to learn to pick up after themselves? Why should he expect his wife to pick up after him, he is not an infant, who can't care for himself.
(as that takes the marriage to more of a parent/child relationship, than a husband/wife partnership)

It works both ways though, if a wife/mother doesn't treat her husband with respect, the children learn men aren't to be respected. If a husband/father doesn't respect his wife, the children learn women aren't to be respected.


What is (in your opinion) stereo-typical male behavior?

There is another point of view here too about the nature of abuse, and what happens when one is already married B4 realizing it exists.

It is non-trivial to end a marriage, and it is still - in my opinion - a virtue to give someone a chance to change. Many marriages have been fixed because one or both parties were willing to make the changes necessary. It is NOT easy to know when or where to draw the lines however. I'm not saying one should go into a relationship planning on doing this work but when you are already there it is another story. Being willing to work on it is one thing, knowing how to do that is another - so many people think they are "giving things a chance", but don't really have a chance of success. This does not necessarily mean they are subjecting themselves to abuse.

Now - about the nature of abuse: Not all abuse is overt. Therefore it can be veiled as something else, including twisted into looking like the opposite of abuse. This is an insight I've recently gotten from my lawyer (my legal $$ at work!). All the rhetoric in the world about how much someone did for you, can be mostly smoke and mirrors. Sometimes if that person really did do some of those things for you, this truth can hide the fact they are expecting unreasonable things in return.

It is also true that people who are messed up from their own family backgrounds may end up emotionally abusing others who do not realize what is happening to them. It is NOT always easy to see this when it happens to you, especially if YOU were raised to take responsibility for your own behavior (instead of pointing fingers at the other person and being hypercritical of him/her.)

Also, if you are a person who tends to be accepting of opinions that differ from yours, you can have trouble drawing the line between doing this in a healthy manner, and recognizing when it is unhealthy. I think it depends on how much you know about healthy / unhealthy behavior to begin with, and how good your personal role models are / were. And, it depends on whether you know how to spot people who are not "safe" as opposed to those who are basically "safe" but might need reminding from time to time. We are all a product of our genes and our experiences, and we are all capable of being not-so-nice at times, and not-so-safe at times.

I am going through this learning and growth process now - learning what was not "safe" in my marriage, and also where my boundaries were violated (before I even knew they were "boundaries" of mine). In my first M I didn't realize my H was an alcoholic because he was a dry drunk until the last year of our M. I knew nothing about alcoholism except for stereotypes which did not fit him. My current H is probably a narcicisst - something I had never even heard of until people on this list told me about it. And I'm sure there are many other emotional disturbances I know nothing about and therefore would probably not recognize either. Any of which could cause harm to me in a relationship if I don't learn to spot them B4 it's too late.

I may have some growing and learning to do, but I do NOT consider myself a "project" person. I consider myself someone who's positive side has an Achilles Heel to it: I am capable of misinterpreting behavior and being too trusting, which leads to giving people the benefit of the doubt when I shouldn't. I need to understand this better. But, according to your definitions, I'm probably one of those who "submitted to abuse". I, however, reject that assumption and its corresponding label.

osxgirl,

Oh I understand how people gradually get into abusive relationships. I never would have imagined that I would let somebody treat me as WW has treated me. And, of course, in the beginning she was respectful, thoughtful, affectionate. It took a while before she got to the point of hitting, kicking, scratching, hairpulling, namecalling etc. etc. In some effort to be fair to her, she is past most of that now (except the verbal stuff). But I did allow her to do that - and that makes me think I am vulnerable in some way. I don't think it would neccesarily have happened to another man in my place.


Oh, I understand this impulse. But I think, as Deja has pointed out, that there may be alternatives. Just because a person does something which hurts you does not mean that they are a bad person - or that you cannot have a good relationship with them. This is especially true if you have not firmly communicated to them that you will not stand for this treatment.

I have a theory that some people seem to repeatedly get into this kind of relationship - not entirely because the "abused" person chooses abusers, but because the "abused" person does not implement boundaries in a constructive way. I don't know how to express the thought clearly, but I'll try. Take your example of your H's treatment of you in the kitchen. It may be that a large percentage of people would have ended up treating you that same way - if they spent enough time in the kitchen with you. It's not that it's entirely your fault, but that you are responsible for protecting yourself from the thoughtless actions of others. I can easily imagine a scenario where one person is resenting the action of another, but never tells them - and the "abuser" keeps on doing the same and worse, simply because they are not put on notice that this behaviour is hurtful. But after awhile, the accumulated resentment and bitterness become overwhelming and the "abused" one lets loose - seeking justice.

But, if this is the case, it's almost like a trap for the unwary man who comes along, doesn't know he's doing anything offensive, then suddenly finds himself accused of "abuse". Good boundary enforcement is good for both people in the relationship. Poor boundary enforcement by one party has negative consequences for both.

I'm not sure if I've communicated my thought clearly.

-AD

TR,


I used to believe this, but no longer do. It looks like a quote straight from W. Harley.

If the wife expects the man to be her foundation, he cannot show her his weakness. I could not talk to my wife about, for example, problems at work, because it undermined her sense of security. I had to pretend to be the captain of the unsinkable ship - while WW was busy drilling holes in the hull.

And, I suspect this is not an attribute unique to her.

The old fashioned ideas that a man never cries, and never admits weakness or failure - unfortunately, may be a better model than the currently popular (in America) ideas. My wife is the only person who has seen me cry since I was 10 years old. I wish she never had. She once said "A man should not have needs". (She denies it, but she said it.) I think she thinks that a man should not have "feelings". I honestly wish that I didn't. I could be a much more effective person without them.

-AD

more for ...

TR,


It didn't work for me. Her idea of doing laundry is to stuff everything in the washer, then move it to the dryer, then take it out and throw it on the floor somewhere. When you need clothes, you go look in the "clean pile". When you take clothing off (or finish with a towel), you drop it where you are. (This goes for tissues, paper-towels, plastic wrappers and packaging also.) Thus, my child's clothing could be found in every room of the house - P.J.'s under the kitchen table, because WW changed DD's clothes there etc. I don't think any number of years of example would have taught her to pick up after herself.

What I had to do was to enforce a boundary. I needed to say "This house is a mess. Pleas hang your clothes and put the laundry away. Please don't leave clothes in the kitchen. Please change DD's clothes in her room or in the bathroom - and put the dirty clothes in the hamper. Please pick up your garbage. Don't leave it for me." But I didn't say those things - or didn't say them often enough.

Of course, if I said those things, I would have gotten "I'm not your slave" or similar responses. You see, my failure to implement good boundaries resulted in my being subjected to this disorder in the home. My example was not enough. I had to be willing to endure the negative response. There was almost always a negative response to everything I asked of my wife.

My daughter, on the other hand, is young enough to learn from example - and also I didn't feel any reluctance to tell her what to do. As a result, she has developed at least some habits of neatness. She used to fuss at WW to "put away the towel" (instead of leaving it on the bed or the floor).

(Now, I'm griping. Sorry. It's unconstructive.)

-AD

Deja,

I agree with you in most of what you have said.

My W was very very messed up from her background - and she didn't/doesn't realize completely how much she hurt me by her behaviour. Nor does she reallize how easily she could have gotten better use out of me. She grew up with a controlling, manipulative mother - who seems to have been her only role-model of how to get what you want from a man. I feel sorry for my FIL (as does at least one of his sons).

You conclude that you are not a "project", and I'm glad for you.

I'm not sure that I can say the same about myself.

-AD

Are you sure you're project & not just a man in need of some understanding & compassion? Or a man who could be paired up with a better match next time out?

To me a project man is one who has serious issues regarding very important relationship skills. ie, serious conflict avoider coupled with passive aggressive tendencies. Unwillingness to regard his role in problems, unwillingness to truely work on problems. There are more but these are just a few.

.

AD -- this makes me think and question. I did not think of myself as a person who did not implement boundaries, but I guess that is what I did(n't) do. Now, I'd like to explore something further on this topic. Do you think a healthy relationship needs to have boundaries firmly established? Or do they get established when - and if - needed?

This reminds me of getting a new puppy. I set boundaries VERY firmly until the pup is housebroken, and knows the house rules. But they are the kind of rules I would expect an adult dog - any adult dog - to know. You don't dig in the garbage. You don't chew the furniture. etc. Ditto with people. I really expect adult humans do not read each other's mail, listen in on their phone calls, tell their whole family how much $$ their spouse makes, or help themselves to any and everything in the fridge, including food purchased for future meals, and their spouses weekly lunches.

It seems to me if you have to lay out all your boundaries in advance, there is something wrong with this picture. But, maybe I'm wrong - obviously my track record isn't that good!

Osxgirl,

Well said - well said indeed! You have taken words out of my mouth, and I second what you have said.

I also might add that one of the least understood aspects of behavior is abuse. It can be SO subtle, so insidious, and seem SO normal in the hands of a skilled abuser. When it creeps up on you, it grows inductively (rather than deductively). If it was deductive, it would be like starting with the premise that there would be abuse - nobody would fall for that. But inductive reasoning works from specifics to generalities. And the generalization (that there is abuse) isn't obvious right away.

Initially, with inductive examples, there is no pattern. Then, when a pattern starts to surface (as a result of several little things), more little things can be introduced that alter the pattern and make it unrecognizable again. It takes quite a while before all the little things add up to a more recognizable bigger thing. And that assumes the pattern is understood to begin with.

This is why the danger signs need to be better understood - and why they aren't recognized or understood.

**It didn't work for me. Her idea of doing laundry is to stuff everything in the washer, then move it to the dryer, then take it out and throw it on the floor somewhere. When you need clothes, you go look in the "clean pile". When you take clothing off (or finish with a towel), you drop it where you are. (This goes for tissues, paper-towels, plastic wrappers and packaging also.) Thus, my child's clothing could be found in every room of the house - P.J.'s under the kitchen table, because WW changed DD's clothes there etc. I don't think any number of years of example would have taught her to pick up after herself.**

TR--Which is my point, she didn't learn it as a child, and for you to correct her as an adult, it makes your relationship w/ her Parent/Child...not husband/wife



**My daughter, on the other hand, is young enough to learn from example - and also I didn't feel any reluctance to tell her what to do. As a result, she has developed at least some habits of neatness. She used to fuss at WW to "put away the towel" (instead of leaving it on the bed or the floor).**

TR--And again, that is your role as her father, to teach her these things.

And it is constructive, because your still learning how to enforce YOUR boundaries, of what is acceptable to YOU in a relationship and what is not.

Ad,

**If the wife expects the man to be her foundation, he cannot show her his weakness. I could not talk to my wife about, for example, problems at work, because it undermined her sense of security. I had to pretend to be the captain of the unsinkable ship - while WW was busy drilling holes in the hull.**

TR--I'm sorry your wife is like that, I too have seen my husband cry, and he complains to me about things at work almost daily, and that's my role to listen and offer a supportive ear when he needs it. Just as it's his role to do the same for me when I need it.

I find comfort and security in the fact my husband trusts me in that way to open himself and allows himself to be vunerable to me in that way. It brings an emotional closeness I can't even begin to describe.



**The old fashioned ideas that a man never cries, and never admits weakness or failure - I think she thinks that a man should not have "feelings".**

TR--Okay, that is how my ex-h was, as was the man I dated before him, and well, I didn't have the same connection with them that I have now with my husband. Nor, did I feel safe with them (but thats a whole nutter story).

But just so you know, there are many women out there who desire to have that emotional connection in their marriage,
they wish their husbands would open up to them on that level
and I just think your wife is so skewed by life to know what she really needs to feel secure in a relationship.

I refute the premise of "project" people. Project people implies first off that I have some control over the human being in question. Since it's only throught the mother mystique that I can influence my children, I doubt I could exercise control over anyone else.

Project also conjures an image of a decrepet old house -- a fixer-upper. People are not inanimate objects that can be broken and repaired.

We are self-determined beings. We adjust and adapt. Sometimes, due to our environment we develop behaviors that don't serve us well as the years go by. Once those behaviors heave enough coals on our heads, we adapt and change them to new ones.

AD, you are not "broken." Exhausted and tired is more like it.

As to the whole male/female role thingy... it's such a muddle I can't make heads or tails of it. I know I don't like gushy men. Now that I think of it, I don't like women to gush either. I have seen my brother cry twice as a man, my husband a handful of times, but it didn't make me lose respect for them.

I did ask my STBX to stop telling me about his money problems. Those mostly consisted of having bought inventory and written a check on the expectation that some's payment to him would beat his check to someone else. Since STBX refused to stop writing checks when he had no money in the bank, I refused to hear about it.

AD -

Yes, I do understand what you are saying, but....

Believe it or not, I've never had a problem with boundaries. The example of the kitchen....well, I stopped after saying he pushed past like I wasn't there. Everytime he did that, I DID tell him that was unacceptable behavior. I told him the polite thing to do is to say excuse me or to ask me to hand him what he needs. He looked at me as if I were speaking a foreign language. Sometimes he even laughed at me when I said it. And the next time, it was as if I had said nothing at all.

While I do agree that some people do attract the same kinds of people over and over, there are also some people out there on whom none of the normal ways of handling inappropriate behavior work. I set firm boundaries, made it clear time after time after time when he was not respecting those boundaries. It didn't matter. And what it came down to was this: do I leave him because he's rude to me, and inconsiderate of me, when I have never believed in divorce and have always felt that infidelity or physical abuse are the only valid reasons for it? I had no experience with the kind of emotional abuse that I was dealing with - very passive agressive, very subtle. I'd be in tears and unable to say why even, and I've never had problems expressing myself.

And Deja - yes! I hadn't looked at it that way, but that's exactly it. Deductive reasoning can be much easier than inductive reasoning. You're right - I didn't have experience with this kind of abuse. Add to it that most everyone has these same kinds of stories, and instead of seeing a pattern of abuse, you start thinking something must be wrong with you.

Which brings me back to my point - part of the problem with abuse, especially subtle emotional abuse, is that the victim DOES feel like it's all their own fault. Well, not so much their fault as it is that you feel you must just not understand something correctly. That if you just understood things a little better, it would all make sense. Or even that maybe you really are going crazy. My XH did actively try to convince me of that - tried to make me think I was losing my memory. I tried setting boundaries there too, and it did no good. The only thing that worked in the long run was doing it back to him, and making sure he knew I was doing it on purpose because he had been doing it to me. The problem is - then I felt horrible for doing it to him. The only way to make him respect my boundaries was to enforce them by acting like he did, because it was the only thing he understood. And it was changing me into a person I didn't like very much.

I guess my point is - don't be so hard on yourself, or on others for not getting out of the abusive situation. Just be honest with yourself. Where you weren't setting boundaries, recognize it and correct it. But don't blame yourself for not being able to enforce boundaries in some cases. Going back to my kitchen example - what else could I have done? I made it clear how I expected to be treated, and he refused. I could have just left the kitchen - which would have had the opposite effect of what I intended. I would have been inconvenienced, and he would have had what he wanted, which was for me to get out of the kitchen whenever he wanted to do something in it, regardless of what I was doing. Short of getting physical or simply giving up and giving him what he wanted, what else could I have done?

Sorry for going on so much about this, but this has been a real tough issue for me. I was never exposed to this kind of behavior. We didn't act this way in my family. It really never occurred to me that someone would do this to another person just because he could. So I figured it must be something I did to make him want to treat me this way, and I tried to figure out what I was doing wrong. But the truth is, it wouldn't have mattered what I did, he would have treated me the same.

To me, giving up on the guy on the phone was a case of me having learned from my mistake. I wouldn't have just written him off for treating me that way once. Everyone has a bad day now and then. But I started recognizing the same sort of thing I saw in my XH. He had to win, and for him to win, that meant I had to lose. And no amount of boundaries I tried to set was going to make a difference.

Oh, and it isn't like I wrote this guy off anyway. After really being obnoxious to me, he said I should call him when the situation he was being obnoxious about changed. My boundary? He needed to calm down and realize he had been a real jerk and call me. He didn't. So I didn't bother calling him. And I'm now seeing someone who treats me great, with a lot of respect. And what have I changed about me so that I don't attract abusive types anymore? Near as I can tell, nothing other than recognizing an abusive personality sooner. And even with that, I wouldn't say I couldn't be fooled again. I just hope that I would recognize it quicker this time.

Well actually, W was under the thumb of a controlling mother - and did everything perfectly at home - but only because of constant control. So, out of that controlling environment, without her mother to force her to do things, she let things go. Also, growing up, she never had so many things - such a volume of clothing to manage. It was easier.

While "correcting" her might be wrong, asking my W to pick up her clothes would not neccesarily put me in the "parent" role - any more than asking a spouse to do (or not do) anything. Sticking to the formulaic wording, I could have said "I would like it if you would take better care of your and DD's clothes. Living in orderly house is important to me." The purists would require that I say "I feel <something> when <some condition>", but I don't know a word for what I feel about this - other than "bad".

None of this matters at present - but might in the future. I would like to have some relationship skills - just in case I have a relationship. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-AD

Osxgirl,


I'm with you on that. Same for me.


I never thought this. I knew she was out of line, not me. Not that I made no errors - or committed not offenses, but I was always sure that nothing I did could possibly deserve the treatment I recieved.


I think in my case, that was not true. Although these were her issues, I did have some influence. Eventually, I adapted, and whenever a physical abuse incident occured, I just left the house - right then - immediately. Usually, she would be calling me within the hour to appologise etc. One time, after she left me bleeding, I didn't call for 24 hours. She was extremely contrite - and begged me never to leave her wondering again. I should call, at least. Eventually, the physical incidents pretty much ended - or became so minor and infrequent that I forgot about them. I could have done more, if I had been willing to take a firm stand early in the marriage.


Congratulations. And, I sincerely hope you are are right.

The first time we were separated, I was really broken up about it - went to a MC (by myself except for one time). One of the things he told me was that I would have had trouble no matter who I married - and that he didn't see any of me (AD) in the marriage. It was all about her. I'm really worried that he was right - and that I would end up in a similar situation or worse.

-AD

GG,


OK. Refutation noted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ever see the movie "Seabiscuit?" What did you think of it?

-AD

I saw the movie. I liked it. Horses and dogs may be projects. I'm a bit confused about the connection though.

Maybe my objection all boils down to semantics. Broken and project seems to really objectify people and negate the divine light, spirit, Holy Ghost, what have you, that is in each of us.

All that said, I must confess before my marriage, I thought my husband just needed some inspiration to turn his extremely messy, dirty disorganized shop into a beautiful inviting rare book shop.

GG,

Didn't you notice that the jockey was also a project?

He was a broken, beaten-down, rejected, abandoned young man.

C'mon. Don't tell me you missed that?

And the great depression was on - and there were a lot of people whe felt that way about themselves - so it all resonated with them.

But I very well understand your point about your H. It is a great pity that he did not entrust you with the transformation of his business and life. Maybe the key thing is an invitation to the work. Did your H ever say "I sure could use a woman's eye to help me make this shop a success?" (or something like that?)

-AD

Of course he never said anything close to that. He likes his way of doing things. Any it works well enough for him. He's satisfied. It was me projecting my desires onto him. My fault, I fear.

Forgive me if I once again split hairs. I have no problem with people feeling as if they are broken and worn down by life. I bet everyone feels that at some point. I do have a problem with describing others in such a way.

There's a big difference between "She feels as if she's been broken." and "She is broken." Just think about that nasty phrase "damaged goods." Wow. We are calling individuals merchandise that can be left on the shelf while we take down one that is just the same but not dented, bruised or scuffed.

Then, look at the word "baggage." As in he has got a lot of baggage. This could mean anything from he's had a lot of difficult experiences to the man is a danger to society.

As for the jockey,if he was a project, whose project was he? The owners'? The trainer's? The horse's? Or maybe Someone Else's?

Oh, what a thought! I'd buy project when it is defined as the Creator constantly shaping and refining us. Except when we little creations swat away the paint brush in his hand and get streaked and mess up instead of refined.

I'll have to ponder this.

GG,

I'm not arguing with your POV on this. I could easily take the same position as you have taken.

My situation is this:

My #1 EN is (in Harley's scheme), "Admiration". I actaully don't have to be admired, only affirmed, so... In the love languages model, my language is "words of affirmation".

Now, that puts me in a vulnerable spot. I suppose "needing" anything - really, actually being "needy" for whatever it is, put each of us in a vulnerable spot. With a little affirmation, I can be a much better man that I am without it. In my view, to some extent, that makes me a "project" - because the other person's actions will have (in my opinion) a big effect on my ability to be my best.

Maybe you don't like that terminology. I don't like it either. I'm hoping I'm just fine and some woman will feel fortunate to discover me (down the road a bit).

-AD

Just think what a boring world it would be if we didn't have any emotional needs. Without emotional needs, we wouldn't have any use for each other. Even my darling dog has deep emotional needs. His top need is Recreational Companionship. His second is Affection. Third is Admiration. Fourth is Domestic Support mostly in the form of food, bed, chew toys etc. Fifth is family commitment. He's still a puppy and will be altered shortly, otherwise SF would be near the top.

Now, if only men were that easy to figure out.

But AD, we all need something in a relationship. If we didn't, why would we even bother looking for one in the first place?

And yes, any relationship does make you vulnerable to a certain extent - at least it does if it is real. Because you have to open yourself up to that other person, expose things that they could use against you, and let them know what you need. It makes you vulnerable - but you can't have a good relationship without doing so either.

If admiration is a need you have, here's a suggestion: find a worthy cause, and donate some time to it. Help out somewhere where they really need it. Fr example, I plan to go become a volunteer at a local pregnancy center in a few weeks - I'm waiting until after VBS is over at my church, because until then, things are really busy for me. Places like that almost always need help, and they usually are pretty appreciative and let you know it. So, you'd be helping them and yourself at the same time.

It won't replace the need for admiration from a partner in a relationship - but it could help you be a little less needy when you are looking for someone. Which should help you attract more healthy relationship partners. It's true that we can attract the wrong kind of people by the vibes we put out. So if you seem very needy for admiration, it will have the effect of putting off people who might be good for you, and attracting those who might take advantage of that need.

That's why we talk about working on ourselves. You won't get rid of that EN - you'll just be able to make yourself not be TOO needy.

Does that make sense? I'm not saying you ARE too needy - but if this is a concern for you, there are ways to handle it.

I wholeheartedly agree, GG.

-AD

osxgirl,

Of course "admiration" or "affirmation" or whatever it is - can be harvested on the job, from friends, from family (my 11-y-o nephew, for example) - and from within. I'm not just falling over dead without it. LOL

And, I don't think I'm set up to become the slave of the first woman who fills that need in me.

So, maybe I'm not a project after all.

-AD

*If the wife expects the man to be her foundation, he cannot show her his weakness.*

TR--I wanted to add some things here about this. It's not that women don't want to see a mans weaknesses, but she also wants to see his strengths.

I'm not talking physical strength that he can bench 250 lbs or pick up something 20 x's his weight.

It's the inner strengths we desire to see, for me, depending on why a man is crying actually shows an inner strength, the ability to show he's human and actually wants someone there to comfort them in those times.

Crying over the loss of a parent or close friend is a strength, crying over the loss of a job because he wasn't performing up to par doesn't. So the reason behind the tears
plays a huge part in what is percieved as a strength or weakness.

If he is able to accept the fact he screwed up at work, and take responsibility for his lack of performance and work to make corrections in that area, I would see that as a strength.

A man that hears other men making rude comments about women and either joins them or says nothing against it, isn't someone I'd want to be in a relationship with. I wanted a man who isn't afraid to speak up and say something, even at the risk of offending them. I guess it's about being able to call a spade a spade.

It's not that I want a man to 'rescue me" but I wanted someone who isn't afraid to protect me and make sure I'm safe.

Example, One night it was storming really bad here, and there was a guy whose car had broken down and was walking home from work in the rain. I offered to drive him the rest of the way home as it was about 5 blocks from where I lived,
my now husband over heard my offering this man a ride, and asked if I knew the man, I didn't, and he asked that I call him when I got home so that HE would know I got home safely,
I personally thought he was strange for asking as I was an adult and knew the risk I was taking offering a stranger a ride, but his concern made an impression on me. And when I got home I called to let him know I was safe. He couldn't take the man because he was working, but he would have had he been able to.

He's one that if he over hears men talking disrespectfully about women, he says something. He's even called his bestfriend on his language and comments about the man's sister and his wife. He told him point blank you don't talk to or about women that way and it doesn't matter who the woman is. Again, it made an impression and not only on me, but his friends sister.

So, you see it's really not about wanting to be rescued, but more about wanting a man to not be afraid to protect them, not that he needs to get up and bust someone in the mouth, but that he SAYS something.

I actually dated a man who would just as well punch someone in the face if they looked at or made a rude comment to me, and it just wasn't the same. The physical violence certainly didn't cause me to feel 'safe' it only brought on fear that either he or someone else would end up in the hospital, in jail or dead. No Thanks...I don't want to live in that kind of fear.

So it's a willingness to say something that MIGHT end up in a fight, but the intention isn't to get into a fight, but only to stop the comments.

Does that make sense?

TR,

I think you have identified a desirable attribute in a man. A man should be the defender of the weak - including "the weaker sex". Gallantry is, in my opinion, a very good thing. But I wonder ... where are you going that you run into all these jerks that insult women? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Actually, one major problem we had was that W's nephew lived with us - and was very disrespectful to her. She insisted that we take him in, so for the most part, this is on her head. My wife is Russian. N and W conversed in Russian. Consequently, I didn't always know what he was saying - and didn't have the opportunity to defend her. Every time she complained to me about him, I would tell her that I would speak to him, but she asked me not to. Then later, after he had finally moved out, she was blaming me. It was a no-win situation for me.

-AD

Oh my, yes! My H used to say he couldn't understand my "requirements" and therefore shouldn't be expected to meet them. (or try to understand them either, it seems). These were my boundaries! He all but said his inability to understand was because my "requirements" were screwed up. My requirements included things like not telling people my personal business (like how much $$ I made), or about personal conversations between us about our relationship. Also, not taking the food I had purchased for my lunches - especially when I told him what those things were. It was too much for him to remember, and unreasonable of me to expect him to. He felt that any food in the house (or anything else in the house for that matter) should be fair game for him if he felt like it. I can't tell you how many meals didn't get made, and how many lunches I wasn't able to make for myself, because he ate the things he found without even mentioning it. When I tried to keep enough things in the house so he could eat what he wanted, he'd say he didn't want a certain item - then later eat mine. He'd say it wasn't reasonable to expect him to remember what he said earlier, or that maybe he had just changed his mind later.

My own personal belongings also disappeared when he wanted to use them - and I often found them laying around in the garage or basement, or wherever he dropped them when he was done with them.

AD,

**But I wonder ... where are you going that you run into all these jerks that insult women? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />**

TR--LOL, actually, it's not really that they were all 'jerks' the one guy I dated was a very nice man, yet, his idea of protecting a woman and mine were quite different, and he couldn't grasp that I didn't like the 'fighting' as a way of showing he cared. I mean, after all what woman wouldn't want a man to "fight" for her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And to be honest in my younger days that was my 'childish' understanding as well, I understood the need for 'physical' protection, but I didn't understand the need for 'emotional' protection, I knew the physical protection didn't 'feel' right, but it was something tangiable that I could 'see'. If that makes sense.

Do you remember the old song "Looking for love in all the wrong places"? I was looking in the wrong places, and honestly, I really didn't know what I wanted and actually needed in a relationship to be happy.

I'm teaching my son and daughters the need for both in a relationship.

I honestly think your need for admiration falls in to that you want to be admired for your ability to protect and provide for the woman you love. I think all men have that inner need. Shoot I even see it in my 10 year old son, he needs to feel he can protect the little girls, and they all admire him for that, to the point they are ALL calling him.
He's the little knight in shining armour standing up for them even when he doesn't peticularly like them.

TR,

What I meant was "how come you are in places where your man has any reason to have to protect you?" Where I spend my time, other than W's nephew, nobody ever insults women. I don't go to bars. Is that where these insults happen?

And my need for admiration, affirmation - whatever you call it - is not at all linked to any kind of protective action. That is, I don't want a woman to admire me for protecting her. I'd rather we just never be in a place where she is in any way threatened or insulted.

Affirmation - applies to accomplishments, activities, projects - in short everything that a person does that can be appreciated. My W did complement me on some of that, but not as much as I would have liked.

-AD

Faith1,


I noticed that you posted - then deleted your post.

On another thread you indicated that you were feeling ignored.

I'm sorry if I ignored your post. I didn't intend to.

-AD

That's ok. Everyone else said the same things, much more eloquently, and ya'll had moved past your original questions, which I attempted to answer... from my perspective... so I just changed my mind and deleted it...... but thank you and don't worry. No biggee.

Ok Faith1,

I appologize again for overlooking your post.

-AD

AD,

It's not that we necessarily go places that men are like that to me personally. Though years ago, I did.

When he made the comment to his friend, we were at his friends sisters house visiting her. And it was in reference to his friends comments about the sister and his friends wife. (and they don't associate with each other anymore)

And another time I know that he made a comment was at a restaurant, a husband was being rude to his wife and he made a comment to the husband.

Another time was when we went to his daughters birthday party with his ex-wifes family, his ex-father in law was making some pretty rude comments to which he called him on. Needless to say, we didn't stay very long.

So it's not that we go anywhere in particular that it's an all the time occurance, but it does happen on occassion at places we do go. And it's not that things are said specifically to me, he just thinks it's disrespectful of men to talk to and around women in a certain way.

And years ago, the guy I dated when he was wanting to fight, over comments that were made, that was at a bar.


So how much would you have liked her to compliment? On every project? I'm glad my husband doesn't have a high need for admiration and appreciation as most of the things he does around the house fall under domestic support and we all do them, as part of a family.

TR,

I think the everyday things can be handled by just a "thanks" or "that looks nice" or "you did a nice job on that". I did that for my STBXW, constantly. She rarely took any notice of the things I did around the house and for the family - unless I stopped doing them.

She did show some appreciation for some things. For example, I planned a vacation, bought all the tickets, chose things to do, made all the arrangements. She appreciated that - and said so - also told me my SIL said that my brother would never do that in his life.

It's not like I'm dying 'cause she didn't tell me how nicely I picked up my fork. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The problem was more on the negative side - constant criticism, blame, complaints. Most of the time, what I did was not good enough in some way. If I did some household project, she would usually express anger that I didn't do it sooner or better or some other way.

For example, several times she had invited people to dinner and I took off work early to help her clean house. She would always yell at me, scream at me - constantly complain that I wasn't working fast enough. A few times, she was violent in that situation. I finally learned to use a boundary. I would just calmly tell her that unless she stop harrasing me, I was going to go back to work and not only not clean house, but skip dinner altogether. It was the only way to get through to her.

I think I was constantly doing things for her because I just wanted her to say "thanks". I rarely did anything for myself.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's not my #1 EN. I've been missing another one, LOL - and it's starting to seem more and more important. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

-AD