Hi Joe,

I'm afraid I don't have any advice for you as I am currently going thru a very similar situation with my WH. My sitch is only 5 months in the making. WH left me and our 1 yr old son the day after his first b-day party last Feb. I did not suspect anything and WH revealed an EA. I got us into MC which was useless at the time. After one joint session and one private counseling session for WH, he revealed PA and he didn't want to return to MC. WH continued in IC, which seemed to only make him feel better about his decision to leave.

He showed no interest in working on our M and I found this website. I began reading, but didn't have much hope for us. WH was gone for 3 1/2 months and then he said the guilt got to him and he missed our son. I am not sure what he missed as he hardly interacts directly with him. I think he just missed seeing him and deep down WH is a good person, comes from a good family and knows what he is doing is wrong. So WH came back home and I went full force into Plan A. WH continued contact with OW for 2 weeks. He told me each time they talked (I know there could have been more, but I believe him).

Then finally NC for 4 weeks. Then the week before the 4th, contact started again. Cell phone calls, lunch (they are co-workers). Again, WH told me about the contact. I told him I would not tolerate that and he wasn't working on his M if he was contacting her, so he had a choice to make ... end all contact permanently or leave.

It was a very emotional night when he left (one week ago yesterday). He cried alot and said he wishes he could stop contacting her and get her out of his head, but he can't. Logic tells him to stay with me, but his heart says go to her. Said he loves me and that I am one of the strongest, kindest and most comapassionate people that he knows and I don't desevere any of this. But he said he is in love with OW he isn't strong enough to end contact and work on our M. So he left, wanted to hug me as he was leaving, but I couldn't. We had been intimate up until a few days before when he started the contact again. WH said he knows that he can't come back this time, yet he still left.

This time he went to OW's house. The first time he was gone, he stayed with his parents. Now he is staying with the OW and he says he will eventually get an apartment.

He barely speaks to his own family and doesn't want anything to do with our friends. Although he will ask me about them from time to time, so he must miss parts of his "old" life.

Like you, I truly believe he loves me and is making the biggest mistake of his life. And I think he will wake up and regret this one day, I just don't think I can wait for that time to come. His leaving has been easier the second time and I do think I can move on. I am relieved in a way, but still very sad and I do think I would take him back again if he wants to come back and I haven't moved on, but it would be under much different rules for him as I would expect alot more from him that what he gave the last time he came back, which was bascially nothing.

My friends are also wanting to set me up. They say they admire me for my strength and for what I have done to try save my marriage, but they are now encouraging me to move on. And I think I'll be ready for that soon, but I want to get the divorce underway first.

Sorry to be so long without being of any help to you. It just seems as though we are in a similar situation right now. And as yours has been going on for 18 months, it definitely sounds like time for you to move on and let her go.

Absolutely that is what is happening here. She is on the fence and is highly addicted to a "feeling" she gets from the OM. What will kill that addiction once and for all is being with the OM with no access to you. It almost died off before, but not quite. She is trying to get that illusive feeling back. The OM will not be able to fill her needs and with you shutting the door she will quickly tire of him. BUT....it has to run its course, Joe. And I think Plan B will do that.


But you can't predict that. I think what will be lost is the affair if she goes off with him, Joe. I think this would be the best thing because it will give her a chance to see it was all an illusion. After all, this is a fantasy and it can't stand the light of reality. Living together will be a cold dose of reality. That will cause the final death of the affair. REmember, she stubbornly chose him before. Then she chose you. Then she chose him....... and on and on.. All

Joe,

I hate to say this but in your situation I beleive you'd be better off just going ahead and filing for divorce. I say this because your WW's behavior seems to strongly point to some very serious personal issues that go beyond the affair and the OM. If this is the case then it will not only require an acknowledgement from her but also a monumental committment on her part to do everything in her power resolve them. Of course the decision to divorce or not is yours but please be careful and not to let your ego make you see things that are not truly there.

TMCM

Joe,

Just my humble opinion, but this lady thinks she has nothing to lose and that you'll take her back if, after she moves out of state, she decides she's made the wrong choice.

I think to protect yourself and make everything clear, I would suggest these things:

Pack up her stuff and put it in a secure place (your garage or a friend's house?) and email her it is there and you want her to pick it up Sunday at noon. Then don't be there.

Leave a plan B letter that is VERY short and basically says the following:

"Dear WS,

I stll love you. I still want our marriage to continue, but you have finally convinced me that you do not. So I am moving on.

In order to protect myself from further harm, I have set a deadline of one year from today. During this year I will have no contact with you and ask you to please not attempt to contact me in any way or for any reason whatsoever.

I plan to reexplore my life and begin to enjoy myself again. I have overlooked friends and hobbies this past year and a half and I intend to reestablish broken ties and to become active again.

I intend to heal my heart and my head during this next year. I look forward to becoming "me" again.

At the end of that year, if I feel my life is incomplete without you, I might try to contact you and see if you feel the same. Then again, it just might be that I am ecstatically happy in my new life and I might not contact you at all. I know you will understand. If that is the case, I will begin divorce proceedings at that time unless you have already done so, which is always your perogative.

I truly wish you the best.

With all my love,

Joe."

I wouldn't put any divorce papers in play until that year is over. If she puts them in play before then, OK. And you go out and do exactly as your letter says: heal yourself. As someone else said, mentally consider yourself divorced. Find peace. Discover the real "you" again, not the poor guy battered by all of this. Seek out old friends. Make new ones. Live life.

God bless. Joe.

~ Snow

Snow, I think that is an excellent letter. The only thing I would change is the 1 year deadline. I would remove that simply because I think it would give her permission to carry on her affair for another year with confidence that he will likely be there waiting. Knowing this WW's history, she would exploit that opportunity. [and has over and over in the past]

See, he has already been doing this now for 18 months and has been through Plan B with several false recoveries. I think it is time to tell her that there are likely no more chances and shut the door.

I think he is at a place where he needs to move on, for his mental health, and *IF* she happens to end her affair, go through her withdrawal and get her crap together, IF he isn't involved elsewhere, he could talk to her. But he is worn in and out from 18 months of this hell.

I should add that he is not married to her. They have a long term live in relationship but are not married.

Thank you for the help, my old friends. We all know how hard it is to think clearly at a time like this.

WS is coming over today to get her things. I see it as impossible for her to take everything in one day by herself.

The letter sounds like a good idea, and I will write it shortly.

This is one of the hardest days of my life, and the second time I've had to watch her leave. Her responses to my emails are very straight forward, as she wrote once again how sorry she is that things didn't work out.

A friend of hers called yesterday looking for her. This friend said she's been leaving WS voice mails but hadn't got a call back. Typical as this friend or anyone else for that matter doesn't agree with what is happening here. Very typical for a WS to simply not associate with anyone that does not support them in their decisions.

I wish this wasn't happening, I feel like I'm drowning all over again. I know I must not show it in front of WS. I will try my best. Wish me luck...

Well, she came over this morning by herself. Remember we've been in this house 12 years, there is stuff in the attic and the basement. There was no way she could have taken everything today, it was hot and she only made one trip.

I tried to stay tough, but as usual we began to talk. I don't know why I bother. I told her how it really is, that she is making a big mistake going with this OM. I said a bunch of things that I needed to get off my mind. She simply cried and said the same things she said last summer. The usual, "this time I'm sure, it's about me being happy, I am being honest with myself, I'm so sorry it didn't work out for us, blah,blah,blah...

Everything I heard last time she left. I caved, and I know I shouldn't have even tried. I know the rules...we all fall sometimes, just get back up and back on track.

I just wish this wasn't happening again. I'm tired of it. I told her that this time is the last time, I will not be waiting for her.

She has to come back next weekend for more things. Man this hurts.
She sticks to her guns after she gets a fix of OM.

I told her how hurt I was, how alone I felt, and that someday she will know these feelings too.

I really messed up huh?

No, you didn't mess up. Its good for her to see how you feel. But why do you say she "sticks to her guns?" She never has in the past, Joe.

Yeah, I guess you're right Mel. I also told her that I felt she wasn't being honest with herself. I think she's stiil very afraid of losing me forever, and just as scared to go ahead with this thing.

I told her I felt she was just doing this to prove somethingor to spite me, and that she must do what she has to do to learn a lesson on her own.

I explained how not only me, but everyone that is close to her thinks she's making a mistake here. Not even so much about leaving me, but even more so about running to this OM who has shown his ability to run from committment already.

I told her it was a very lonely feeling to have the one most important person in your life turn on you like this, and walk away. I also told her that she will most likely experience this feeling herself one day. I said I was not trying to hurt her, but this is how I see things, the way they really are.

Yeah, she sticks to her guns with her words, but can she stick to her guns when it comes to really staying away from me? Time will tell, that's the hard part isn't it?

I wonder why she is dragging out this moving stuff. She can surely afford to hire someone, or she has a brother and father with a truck. Yet she came alone today, and only made one trip. Is there anything to be read into here?

She seems pretty firm on leaving, so why drag it out? Now she has to come back next week. I told her to call me, as I feel these emails we exchange are so impersonal. She agreed.

I also told her that this time I will not be here to pick her up when she falls. My heart has dealt with enough heartache. I think I gave her food for thought, and now it's time I keep quiet.

Thanks for being here Mel, and everyone. I hope everything is well with you.

Hi Joe,
I don't know the history of your situation, but I've read your recent posts.
You sound a LOT like me, and your WW sounds a LOT like my STBXW.
I have no advice (therefore the "STBXW"), but I felt compelled to remind you, for what it's worth, that there are others who are feeling JUST like you do.
Keep your head up high, Joe!

I know there are others. It's a terrible feeling. I keep questioning everything, and blaming myself though I know it's wrong.

I wish there was one thing I could say to my WS to get her to change her mind. I bet we all wish that huh?

This is such a crazy game we are caught up in. When you have only one option for the moment, to be alone. WS's don't understand that part, the loneliness, the rejection. They never had it.

Joe,

Don't make the mistake of reading anything into a foggy WS's intentions. Take her actions on face value. She is getting her stuff. She has made her choice, finally. You won't stop her fall.

Again, I think it would be best for you to tell her that she needs to spend an entire weekend at the house, getting what she wants and that you won't be there to help. Tell her you really need to get on with your life.

Then, once she's cleared out you can send the Plan B letter (without the year deadline as suggested). Make the deadline one in your heart. And in a year, see how you feel.

~ Snow

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. But she has done this thre times already, made her choice that is. She has moved out, moved in, moved out, moved in...

She has always taken hr clothes and things, but she hasn't as of yet spent the time to go through everything in the attic and basement. That will be one step further than she has gone in the past, and I suppose next week will tell.

I wrote a plan B letter to her last summer. Is it wise to write another this time, or to just show her with my actions that I'm moving on? It seems to me that a plan B letter sends the message that the door is always open, prvided she ends the affair of course, but the door is open if at that time I am still alone. Isn't wiser to just let her believe I'm done this time? Really instill the thought of losing me forever, which she has stated that she fears so much.

Today I go to work with the attitude of a single man. I have no other option right now.

Joe, I think you should give her a Plan B letter that makes it clear you are moving on and that you want no further contact with her. In it, I would carefully say that some day, when she is over her affair, and you are available, to give you a call and you can see. But for now, you are moving on with your life and wish her the best.

I think this has gone on long enough and giving her more time is just giving her permission to carry on her affair with you on the sidelines.

If I already told her I was moving on this time, wouldn't the letter sort of say I might be waiting for her? I am so confused right now. You know I still have hope that she might come home. She hasn't yet had the time to spend with OM.

It has still been mostly phone and email relations. She has been with me most of the time, and caves from withdrawal. If you think it's the best idea that I write the letter, I will do it by the guidelines here on this thread, I kinda liked the way it was worded...minus the deadline of course.

Go with the plan B letter without the deadline. I kinda liked the way it was worded, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think the thing that really changes is your heart. You went to work a single man. OK, good. (You guys aren't married, right?). So put your life back together, without her in it. It's not totally closing the door, but it's being shut little by little. Whatever she thinks about whether the door is open to her is immaterial. Doesn't matter what she thinks. You're moving on.

One day one of two things will happen. You'll wake up and realize that the door is closed for good and starting over was the right thing for you and then you'll be free to think about a new relationship. Or, she'll call you out of the blue one day and ask for another chance. And you answer based on how you feel at that time. If the door is closed in your heart, she'll just have to accept that. If you want to give it another try, just make sure she has been on her own and OM-free for at least six months (or a year).

God bless, Joe!

~ Snow

Well, it's been a week and no word from WS. She was supposed to come by to get more things from the house this weekend, and I had told her to call first well in advance. She's probably out of town, off with OM.

So I deciced to send an email last night, simply stating that I would begin putting her things in the garage so that I wouldn't have to see her when she does come by. I also said that I would be getting a dumpster in a couple of weeks in order to clean out around here, and that at that time anything of hers that remains I will assume is garbage.

And as advised by you all, my support through all of this, I also made this email a Plan B letter. I used what was written on this thread as a guideline. I asked that she please respond to let me know she recieved the message, and to inform me of any visits to the house because I changed the locks, and I don't want to be home.

So now I have the task of moving all this stuff out to the garage. She wins again, as I have to do all the work. She has not responded as of yet, and if she's with OM she probably won't even check her email until tomorrow.

I know we shouldn't try to read into the actions or words of a WS, but why hasn't she called, why not get the rest of her things, and why does it seem like she is stalling? I thought maybe it could be that she has no place to store everything until she actually moves away, but she has plenty of money to rent storage, plenty of $$$. So what gives? Is she pondering her decision already? Or is it just that she's so selfish and wrapped up in the moment with OM that she has absolutely no consideration for how hard this is on me? Argh!!!

Just venting...

WS just called. She got my email about her stuff. She is unbelievable, tells me that she hasn't any help, doesn't have a truck, and that I should be more reasonable...what's fair is fair she said.

Then she asks whether I'm buying the house or selling. It's fine for her to leave her stuff here and do as she pleases, and I shouldn't push her. But then she pushes about the house.

I started to get annoyed and said I just want her out of my life, as the pain she is causing me is justy too much. I said "just let me know what you plan on doing with this stuff, I want it out of here.

How many Plan B letters can one send??? You have gone that route before and due to your recalcitrance to follow through with the INTENT of your letter, you have found youself once again trying to fix something that YOU can't. You appear to be stuck in the very early phase of examining and clinging on to each and every morsel of contct/no contact as if it means ANYTHING.

How much respect would you have for someone that draws a line in the sand and when that spouse crosses, it is immediatley redrawn. And yes she has got you doing her cr*p work(moving things into the garage) because you have proven to her immense satisfaction that YOU will do it. Why not give her what she has been asking, no begging, for...her true freedom. You have proven to everyone's satisfaction that a BS CAN NEVER SAVE A MARRIAGE.

A BS can only go on with their life until the WS makes marriage the same priority that it so easily gave to the OP

I know I sound like a broken record in these forums but if you haven't read Dr Dobson's article, I will post the link for you

Hope for Couples in Crisis

I just read your follow up vent and it obviously more of the same dog and pony show that you both appear to be intent on. If I sound harsh( 2x 4 thwwwwwwack)I mean to be. She can only jerk you around if you permit her to do so.

Don't answer ANY emails, phone calls, letters or smoke signals. Cut off any and all communication immediately and totally. Reread Plan B principles but please do not send another " this is my last" Plan B letter