Oh, I also meant to say that of course she's found nothing in the history. He can clear that. She already said that she realizes he is probably just hiding the porn that she already confronted him on from her by clearing history and cookies, etc. The proof would be found on the hard drive and she is not a computer expert who can do that.

He paid to have another man kill his wife. He intended specific harm against a specific person.


I think your analogy would be better applied to chasters husband paying another man to molest a child he wished to molest. Now, I am no lawyer, but it sure seems different. To obtain pictures of sex acts and to contract a hit don't sound the same to me. If someone contracted a molestation, then yeah.

that is an idea that would take more of a lawyer than I, I think.

This is the same board where we advise not to warn the WS that we're going to do exposure, right? Same reasoning applies here. I see a lot of parallels between exposure of an A and this situation, just on a more serious scale.

Dobie

Sally, remember this is just another cross-section of the population...some express their views one way, others a different way. Disappointing or frustrating as it can be sometimes to read responses,it can actually be very good practice for learning how to communicate well in real life, in our marriages. On a side note,I'm sorry you feel displaced on the boards, if it a concern, perhaps a seperate thread to discuss it? KB

Patriot, as I said before it is unlikely that she will return, this is not the fault of the board but a common response to having your world not only turned upside down because of someone else's life altering choice but also the horror of having to make some sort of life altering decision yourself. Even in the event she does nothing, she has still made a decision....we may well never know the outcome. What does come through loud and clear on these boards however, is the care and concern for her and her baby, no matter what the opinion...abd that is something I hope she does not miss.

I don't doubt for a moment that he'll be able to come up with atleast 10 different logical explanations. Further, as I stated in my last post, I fear that she'll buy one of them and not turn things over to the proper authorities. I believe that the likelyhood of this being investigated is deminished by choosing to deal with the situation herself. Again, how many woman don't report abuse? Why?



Again, point of clarification. He has done something wrong. Possession of child porn is a crime, regardless of intent, and I believe it's a federal offense. Further, that he'd bring it into the home and risk having his child removed from the home, makes any logical arguement seem illogical.

Because he doesn't KNOW the child in the picture makes it different??!!!!!

I'm not really talking legalities here. I'm no lawyer, either. But I am a mother.

Patriot, I'd ask that you peek at my last two posts on the previous page and provide your opinion of those....

you have obviously already convicted this man in your mind. You speak as though his wrongdoing was fact. You state there is NO possible explanation for this other than he is a sicko.

I have not. And I think not. I even offered up an explanation. Maybe it seems far fetched. It didn't to me. If I confiscated child porn from a family member(like a nephew) I would be quite torn on what to do. I might need some time to collect my thoughts. But I am sure I would do the right thing.

There is an investigative requirement here. There is not enough pudding(you know... the stuff where the proof is).

And as far as destroying evidence, I never said do that. I never said let him do that. I said be smart and protect yourself. Destroying or letting him destroy the evidence does not fall in line with my idea.

faithhopelove04, my responses to you are in bold below...

Sally, this is a pretty cut and dry situation,

That is merely an opinion. You have the right to your own opinion, you don't have the right to decide for anyone else what is or is not 'cut and dry'.

no need and no place for lots of inward contemplation at the moment for this woman. If we believe what she says, then inward contemplation needs to happen later, not now. Furthermore, how much contemplation is necessary for me or anyone else to see that a man in posession of illegal material in which children were harmed in the making of needs to be turned into the authorities immediately?

This is also merely an opinion and not a fact.

Lastly, this whole topic has pretty much absolutely nothing to do wit Marriage Building. Chaster never asked for help saving her marriage in spite of finding out her husband likes to lok at pictures of children being molested and abused. She asked WHAT TO DO about finding out, period.

As this is one woman's husband, and she is sharing her reality with this board, I would argue that the subject is tangential to marriage building. Regardless, I am saying that when we knowingly display intolerant behavior to reasonable yet differing views on the board or to others that are not our spouses, then likely we are also displaying similar intolerance to our spouses and that is NOT constructive to marriage building.

Sorry, but I for one care NOTHING about MB PC when it comes to this topic. Their marriage SHOULD BE a moot point at this point.

Again, your opinion but I urge you to consider that treating people disrespectfully simply because they do not reflect your particular norms is not only trashing MB PC it's also showing a lack of manners in general.


Sally

knewbetter,

I think my main point is somewhat parallel to the one you just made.

Sally

Lol Sally, great minds think alike, maybe we can consider mine the "elementary school" version and yours the "postgraduate school" version. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I like your style. KB

I fear she would buy one as well. I certainly hope she doesn't... but can we control what she does? I can't state enough, it seems, to be smart and protect one's self in this scenario. She has to do that. No one on this board seems to have the capacity to find this woman and make the decision for her. So she has to do it. And I did not say deal with this herself. My options all ended with police/authorities.

But this is a marriage site and within that context, the husband should get a heads up of some sort. What if he is completely innocent of serious wrongdoing? Are we determining that SHE is incapable of discerning that? We don't even know her. No one seemed to have a problem with the sexually deviant behavior practiced by her and her husband. If you think she is so incapable of making a decision about her life, then why is no one trying to save her from this sicko forcing her into a life a sexual servitude. Obviously, we give her some credit for something. So, can we not trust that the mother will try to do what is right?

maybe not.

And as far as doing something wrong, if he confiscated this crap from someone else and then was torn on turning it in, but then did turn it in, is he guilty of molestation then too?

"Again, your opinion but I urge you to consider that treating people disrespectfully simply because they do not reflect your particular norms is not only trashing MB PC it's also showing a lack of manners in general. "

I don't see how I've been disrespectful,
and I sincerely hope that "my particular norms" does not refer to my stance on the immorality or legality of posessing child porn! Surely, I am just not getting the meaning you do have there.

You know, we can say "to each his own" about a lot of things, but this is just not one of them.

As far as marriage building is concerned, let me repeat what others have already pointed out - Steve Harley himself has stated emphatically that a marriage cannot even really be WORKED on while there is an addiction in place. One does not come to the point of viewing child pornography without some sort of sex addiction or addiction to pornography. Pornography is similar to alcohol. It is progressive when it becomes an addiction. If he was simply a dabbler in porn and not an addict, he would still be looking at nude pictures of ADULT women, not 4 year old children. Argue that that is my opinion all you want, but I sincerely doubt you could find anything to back up any other opinion.

Furthermore, if no one takes away anything else from anything I've said, listen to this:

Viewing Child pornography is not simply about viewing illicit pictures of children. Not at all. What it is, is paying for and taking PLEASURE in pictures (EVIDENCE) of children being molested, raped, and abused.

The man isn't just in posession of some illegal pornography. he is in posession of EVIDENCE of crimes against children.

And one more thing. Chaster puts herself at risk of losing her child as every minute passes that she doesn't report this CRIME, and the posession of evidence of crimes.

Whether you realize it or want it to be so or not, Chaster "turned in" her husband when she posted this on a public forum. Moderators watch over these boards every day, and you can be sure they are aware of this thread. I seriously doubt Marriage Builders would put themselves at risk by NOT reporting the IP address of Chaster's computer. The FBI could very well already be involved. In fact, I wonder if WE are not all legally obligated to report what we know?? Maybe there's someone with enough knowledge here to answer that question.

“””I fear she would buy one as well.”””

Good, this is cool. I do appreciate that we are able to focus some on similarities rather than differences and do so in a respectful manner.

“””but can we control what she does? I can't state enough, it seems, to be smart and protect one's self in this scenario.”””

Again, ding ding ding, we are in agreement. We cannot control how she chooses to deal with the situation. So that leaves us with limited options as I see it and that’s one of my main points. Yes people, including yourself, have posted some wonderful thoughts and suggestions. That being said, IMHO, when dealing with situation of this nature I feel that it is extremely valuable to post to the user with the entire picture in mind and do so in ways they understand. Thus giving them the best opportunity to reach for the best solution. Given the circumstances in this user’s post, I honesty believe that her best solution is to get others involved before confrontation. I say this because, I believe that given the picture that she painted, married up with my assumptions (yes assumptions) and life experiences, I see by her choosing to confront before she acts, that the likelihood of action being taken in the near future is greatly diminished.

“””So she has to do it. And I did not say deal with this herself. My options all ended with police/authorities.”””

Again, totally agree with you. Our point of contention is that your options ended with the authorities and mine began there. Again, if for no other reason than it’s because of all the factors she’s shared coupled with what I’ve experienced.

”””the husband should get a heads up of some sort.”””

I think we’d be best to agree to disagree on that point.

“””What if he is completely innocent of serious wrongdoing?”””

OK, we agree that there is “wrongdoing”, the disc with little Johnny on it pretty much sums that up. So the term ‘serious’ I guess is relative to ones opinion on the matter. That he possess them takes away his complete innocence to anything.

“””No one seemed to have a problem with the sexually deviant behavior practiced by her and her husband.”””

Uhhhhhhh, actually I do. And have even more problem with the “pretend rape” fantasy mentioned earlier. I don’t believe either of those to be actions of emotionally healthy people.

“””So, can we not trust that the mother will try to do what is right?”””

I wish we could, but sadly we can’t trust that. Being a foster parent, many of the children that blessed my doorsteps were from homes where only one parent was actively abusing them with the other parent having knowledge of the events taking place.

”””And as far as doing something wrong, if he confiscated this crap from someone else and then was torn on turning it in, but then did turn it in, is he guilty of molestation then too?”””

Someone in this case is guilty of Possession of Child Pornography. If he was “holding it” for someone else he is still in possession of it and further by not acting upon it he is condoning the crime and leaving children at risk.

I love the Cops where the woman walks over to the cops and hands them dope and says she just bought it from the guys down the street. They look at her and say, "tell us that again." She says, "there are guys selling this stuff down the street so I bought it and brought it to you guys to show you they are selling it." They turn around and arrest her saying it's illegal to buy dope and her response was, "but I was buying it to show you they were selling it." And they just said it was their job to do that and not hers.

So somewhere in here it's the cops job to sort out some of this, but bottom line they need the disks turned over to them in order to sort it out. And I think everyone agrees to that, it's just a matter of when to hand it to them.

But don't go out and buy it to hand it to them.....

I guess folks are a little gun shy about respect from me because I said ***? Lord... lol. Take something personal. Anyway... I said sorry for that already and it is over.

I certainly think it is serious wrongdoing for little Johnny to be on the disk. I am not convinced of Mr Husbands wrongdoing, or level of it, rather.

I certainly don't think he should have to answer to the police and society for child porn use and possible molestation and any other charge someone wants to pin on him because of perceived deviance when it is possible that all he is guilty of is being torn over a dilemma. I mean I find it somewhat difficult to face turning in one's own spouse for a crime. You feel loyal. You feel care and disbelief that they could do such a thing. That is real. Not always right.... but real. And for him, maybe it is his favorite nephew and he is trying to figure out how to do it without ruining the nephews life. This is why you have to ask questions. You get his side and then you know what you are in for.

There is no doubt of serious wrongdoing by the person(s) that produced the images on the disk. Those person(s) are fully guilty of molestation, unless it is just some photoshop job... and then they are just sick people that need help.

People deal with things differently. If I had confiscated the disks from a nephew, lets say. And I sat on them for 1 day. 1 day is it. And then I was going to hand them over because making my decision about my dilemma was over, but froz had found the disks prior to me collecting them up and taking them to the police... should I be guilty of child molestation because I was pondering a dilemma? I can say with a fair amount of certainty, that if she just called the police and stated that she found this****in our house and had no idea where I had gotten it, when the police questioned me they would be on the assault. And it might 'leak out' why I was being interrogated. And then I would be answering for it for the rest of my life.

All because I was faced with a dilemma.

If this is the price of doing business then I really want nothing to do with it. To be charged and convicted prior to a jury even being selected is ridiculous. And the scariest part for me was the jump from possession of child porn to molestation accusations. Without ANY proof.

And then I recall the speeding analogy someone used a while ago. Speeding is a victimless crime. yeah? Tell that to the parent who child was run over on their own street by someone speeding through the neighborhood. And that illustrates one thing really. Mob Complex. Once one person spouts an idea that is easy to just swallow without scrutiny or inspection, then the masses jump on the band-wagon. But if one were to really peel back the onion and stop making accusations and deriving 'facts' from fiction, maybe they coould get the whole picture and make an informed decision. I just shudder at the thought of some guy's life being ruined when it didn't have to be.

If he is a pedophile, then his life is already ruined. And turning him over to the police simply stops his ruined life from ruining others.

Well, buddy, I've got to head out of town on business all of a sudden, so please forgive me in leaving this lively debate. But I will leave with one parting thought, if she were to immediately turn the **** over, that is not implying guilt or conviction on anyone. The CD is what it is, possessed by who held it and viewed it, made by who made it.

As I said, you have some great points, but given the circumstances, if she chooses to confront first, I find it unlikely that it would be turned in. I do hope and pray that FHL04 is correct and that this is already being investigated, regardless of our thoughts or her actions.

People deal with things differently. If I had confiscated the disks from a nephew, lets say. And I sat on them for 1 day. 1 day is it. And then I was going to hand them over because making my decision about my dilemma was over, but froz had found the disks prior to me collecting them up and taking them to the police... should I be guilty of child molestation because I was pondering a dilemma? I can say with a fair amount of certainty, that if she just called the police and stated that she found this crap in our house and had no idea where I had gotten it, when the police questioned me they would be on the assault. And it might 'leak out' why I was being interrogated. And then I would be answering for it for the rest of my life.

Well Pat, thank God for MB and the concepts of Radical Honesty and the Rule of Protection for example. You and Froz have the benefit (as do we all) of implementing these things into our lives. Using the concepts in this case would have meant you would not have been hiding any porn use to begin with. You would have included Froz in the dilemma, thereby putting yourself above reproach.

You would have avoided placing her in the position of questioning why you had illegal disks in your desk after she had asked you not to hide a porn habit. The disks would become a POJA dilemma rather than something you or Froz had to deal with on your own. MB really is amazing, a stroke of genius I've always thought. I wish H and I had found it sooner and I sure wish Chaster had too. KB

Pat shame on those who can't make the mental leap to distinguish between a response on an impersonal topic (this go 'round on whether morality applies to all - it doesn't by the way) and a response on a personal topic (someone responding to your WIFE in a way that you think is negligent and hurtful). Shame on them for not making allowances when you later repent... sure the **** comment wasn't you at your best but who is perfect among us?

knewbetter No fair making me laugh so hard at your sardonic post when I am trying to remain serious! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Everyone else and KB and Pat

Respect usually isn't a knee-jerk reaction. It's something that develops over time based on demonstrated behavior. Hmmmmn, much like love, commitment, intellect and lots of other things that don't fly out the window just because someone calls someone else a dipsh*t. There are plenty of people on the boards who probably NEVER swear, but I’ll bet they are guilty of worse transgressions.

Nobody thinks child pornography is a good thing. Why this is even still on the table astounds me. It's an exercise in trying to be loud... We all agree. Child pornography is not good.

Now persecuting people according to ambiguous or misapplied morals and laws is NOT a good thing either. I'm currently in possession of countless photographs my parents took of me as a child. In many of them I am naked, half naked, clothed, swimming, playing, bathing, in the grass, on a blanket, there are a couple of me asleep on my (also sleeping) dad's *ulp* bare chest. (I'm told he stopped napping with me that way after I pooped on him.) In some pictures, I am seen bathing with other children! Horror! Gasp!

My parents didn’t abuse me. There was nothing sexual behind the pictures. By knowingly being in receipt of these pictures, I am breaking the law -- me! Law-abiding, horribly clean-nosed Sally. I actually think the pictures are cute. Does that mean I support child pornography - NO.

If someone called the police and sent them to my house they would dig through a bunch of stuff and find harmless pictures that could get me sent to prison because the photos are of a minor child in varying states of dress, and some not at all undressed, that might be considered by some to be exciting. The problem with this is that who decides what is exciting? There are pictures of me and my brother hugging and kissing at holidays. My parents took posed hugging and kissing pics every New Year for YEARS! We are fully clothed in our very best; yet, could someone with a particular bent think they were a turn on? Probably.

Does that make these pictures are pornographic? I don't think so. If I give copies to my relatives and later find to my shock and horror that one relative found them to be sexually stimulating am I at fault for distributing indecent material? I don't think so. The law of the land is ambiguous though. Maybe yes, maybe no and my fate rests on the assumptions of a jury of non-peers who would rather see me rot in prison than consider reasonable explanation.

Regardless of WHAT one's morality is, morality by itself is not universal or objective. Your morality is for you. My morality is for me. Maybe we agree, maybe not. If you're so busy being right that you aren't willing to listen to anyone else's opinion (Oh, I'll just stay at home alone with my morals...), that's your business, but then how will you really be able to differentiate between right and wrong? You have to be willing to ask yourself questions that take you beyond your self, your social groups, your country, even your religious affiliations and require you to address concerns of ALL people.

My point in all this is can any of you who sit in unquestioning, uninformed, negative judgment of others views satisfactorily answer the following questions when you direct them at yourself and your own behavior?

"What would happen if everyone acted this way?"

"What are the consequences of my actions for all people?"

"Would I want someone else to act this way to me?"

"Can my conduct stand up to fully informed, large-scale public scrutiny?" (Meaning, a large, diverse public community that is capable of reasoning and rational judgment.)

Just curious,
Sally

Oh Sally, Chaster may be young but she's been around the block obviously. If she says it's porn, I think we can give her credit for knowing what she is talking about. Granted she didn't mention specific positions or acts but she was pretty clear about what it was that she saw on those disks. What she SAW scared the heck out of her, look at her panicked post on the Just Found Out board.

If everyone truthfully asked themselves your excellent questions we wouldn't have a need for this forum BTW. We also would not have pedophiles, murderers, thieves to deal with. It's an imperfect world, *sigh* KB

P.S. Glad you got the joke...but I really did mean the part about liking your style. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

edit for a bad misspell, lol