Dating is partly a skill, and like any skill one must "learn" how best to do it....but beyond that, the other factor (IMO) is to be authentic, be who you are (after you change anything needing change, and can be changed). Don't wear some kind of a "mask". Further, Christians have the added advantage (well everyone does, if they choose to let God in their lives), of giving up the angst and fearfullness to Him, He will carry that load, and we just need to focus on our own behavior, and seizeing opportunity. I also think eharmony is a good place to meet people, you at least have (IMO) a better matching process (meaning higher quality "hits"), and can be pretty selective in setting relgious parameters too. I also tend to think anyone willing to go through a fairly time consuming enrollment effort, as well as pay some money, means a larger pool of motivated people seeking deep long term committments. Doesn't mean there aren't screwballs, cause there are, but less so.

AD,

Well, since I"ve just started dating,I'll reply to you. I spent a few days with a new man, with our children, in very casual circumstances. I received NOTHING in the way of flirting, so assumed that he was not interested. Finally, a few days latter when I mentioned that I needed to buy nylons for a job interview, he responded with " all the way up, or just to the thigh?" I did not think it was inappropriate, and it revealed that he WAS interested.

So, to me, if a man doesn't flirt, Iwould always assume he wasn't interested. Not that the flirting has to be sexual, but it must indicate some sort of attraction, or else how would I know?

ps- the line " if i was your husband we would be late for work in the morning" would definitely get my attention!!

cm

Flirt!

That's the word. Yes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> That's what I had in mind. GDP has to flirt!

I never learned to flirt, but if I'm D'ed, I'm gonna learn. For sure!

-AD

I don't see that happening. "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." In my case, there isn't even any evidence of birds in the bush. Why should I throw away a real friendship for nothing? And even if it didn't seem like a poor exchange, it is not in my nature or values to cut ties with someone just because I am experiencing a bit of emotional discomfort.

I believe that it does indeed make it difficult for me to be emotionally - or at least romantically - available for another relationship. But I do not believe it makes it difficult for me to make an objective evaluation. And since my head has always had greater influence over my heart than the other way around, I am willing to take the risk.

I do not underestimate its importance. In fact, I consider it crucial. However, I am doubtful that a chemical reaction would be impossible in the presence of an appropriate catalyst or sufficient activation energy. I have been very respectful of the boundaries which my friend established - boundaries which were quite deliberately calculated to protect against spark production. (To use AD's metaphor, the flint and the rock have been carefully sequestered, and it would be a gross contractual violation for me to unilaterally attempt to bring them together.) For this reason it seems a tad unfair for her to use the lack of a spark as an argument against a relationship. However, for me to press her on this point seems unwise: I cannot argue my way into her heart. The bottom line is, it's her decision, and if she really wanted to give it a try, she would.

If it sounds like I haven't entirely given up on her, well...I haven't. She's still trying to figure out this whole dating/relationship process, and who knows? Some day she may realize what she's leaving on the table. I cannot make her see things the way I see them, but there's a line between persistent and pushy which I hope to walk, and I can think of at least three upcoming opportunities where I should be able to give her some things to think about. As for flirting...that's not a skill I've developed, and that line I was talking about does come into play. But, I believe there are a few things I can safely do. If she complains, I can always point out that if there's no possibility of a spark, a bit of flirting shouldn't matter at all.

Most likely, I've gotten myself stuck in the "friend" box, and that will be the end of it. I can not pin my hopes on her, which is why I'm inconveniencing myself in an effort to see other possibilities. I need to see her as merely one possibility.

My problem with eHarmony is that the few profiles I've been given as "matches" have contained nothing to pique my interest. I have no faith in their matching process to begin with (I wasn't terribly impressed with the personality profile they created for me), and to pay the kind of money they want for just a handful of highly uncertain prospects seems wasteful.

I've tried a number of dating sites, and haven't been too impressed with the selection in my area. I ended up paying for three months at match.com because at least they had a reasonable number of profiles up, a few of which I actually found intriguing. I figured that three months would be enough to make a fair trial.

I did indeed allude to the significance of my relationship with God in my profile, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if that is the biggest reason (or at least one of the biggest reasons) for the lack of response I've gotten.

Minus the roses, I've come very close to all that. I haven't actually asked her to marry me, but I have told her that the only thing stopping me is that she isn't in love with me.

GDP,

Perhaps she's not in love with you because you lack the action factor. Maybe I'm the wrong one to suggest it, because I think I'm a lot like you - but at some point in most relationships, the woman thinks that the man is too pushy - and squirms a bit under the force of it. I think the trick is to go just barely past her comfort zone, but nowhere near the point of her feeling in any way threatened or intimidated by you. I don't think you have to worry (knowing you) about going too far. You have to create a little excitement.

I'm finding this thread theraputic - not only looking forward to my future post-D situation - but also in considering my conduct in the case that there was a miractulous reconciliation. If I had lost my 30 pounds, I would go try to seduce my W right now, LOL. I think even in marriage, flirting may be required - and I've neglected that for the most part. Maybe I'm talking to myself here.

-AD

GDP,

What if the next occasion in which you are in the same place with PW1, you keep more or less silent and simply watch her - without turning away - not smiling, just looking thoughful. Maybe even neglect what you are supposed to be doing. And when she glances at you... Eye contact. Eye contact. Eye contact.

What do you think would happen?

-AD

Oh, I have little doubt that that's a big factor. Unfortunately, my hands are mostly tied there.

I have no idea what will happen, but experimenting with eye contact is at the top of the list of things I have been intending to try. Eye contact is clearly one of the most innocuous but at the same time most powerful means of making a connection, and I see no reason not to practice it on a number of women, including my particular friend.

You've completely lost me there, landica. What on earth is wrong with her accepting me as a friend?

gdp...My problem with eHarmony is that the few profiles I've been given as "matches" have contained nothing to pique my interest. I have no faith in their matching process to begin with (I wasn't terribly impressed with the personality profile they created for me), and to pay the kind of money they want for just a handful of highly uncertain prospects seems wasteful.


knight..And your other strategies have been working so much better...chuckle.. It is just another place, and will yield as good a results as any other method you employ for a given effort/resources. As for the profile they created, mine had issues too, and most everyone I have talked with that uses eharmony has an issue or two as well...but, that isn't the point, the point is to increase the likelihood a match will fit you, and they have successfully done so. The kind of money they want? It's peanuts, $50 bucks for 3 months, not even as much as pizza..and for that you at least get opportunities to talk to people. They do advise you to attempt communications with every match, they don't say they will provide you with the "perrfect" match, you have to do the work...and it is impossible to get more than just a "sense" from a profile...unless you are awash in other relationships, just pursue whoever they match you with for a little while, what's to lose?

Myself, I did not pursue many matches for lots of reasons including just not being piqued, and I pursued a couple that turned out yucky, and some were ok, and just went nowhere for whatever reason..the point is, always tried to have something going on...eventually one worked out well...sort of like real life. If you have a negative attitude, that will color your perceptions. I had over 200 matches in a few months, plenty of "action", too much to even begin to pursue...some contacted me, some I contacted, ended some, some ended me...and so it goes...one after only 1 email told me I "talked" to much, imagine that, was so funny... who would have thought a woman would complain about such a thing. There are all kinds of women gdp, unless you have something better, is the only service I have found that really is any better than a meat market..and if you are that "unique" you will find someone easier that way, than randomly bouncing about.

Time and money. I'm not going to invest in more than one online dating service at a time.

On eHarmony? Wow. The last time I ran a search I think I got eight, four of which were rather far away.

Of course, it makes a difference where you live.

Well, I did specify anywhere in US, that helps. As for time and money, the whole point is you are spending time, if you are in the game, and the money is trivial. I did match.com, and got over 500 matches in first couple weeks, it was insane, and many of them were of dubious character judgeing by their user names, and profiles...but it was just not worth wading through 100's to find an occasional one worth following up on, that is not the case with eharmony...but anyways, to each their own, just offering my experience. I do find puzzleing not going to "invest" in more than one dating service at a time though, what's that got to do with anything? Is one just going to go to the same bar over and over, or only accept blind dates from one friend, etc. Just take whatever time you wish to devote to seeking dates, and vest it wherever and however seems to get the best result...may be 1 service, no serice, or several service.

The explanation is simple: I have a life, and dating is by no means the most important thing in it. I am not at present willing to sacrifice my current relationships and projects, especially for something that I'm still more than half convinced is a wild goose chase (er...no resemblance between waterfowl and women is thereby intended), and I do not wish to overextend myself any more than I already am. Furthermore, although the cost may seem trivial to you, Sir 50, that's a viewpoint I am unable to share.

The geographical limitation is similar: I am unable to spend the money and unwilling to spend the time required to meet women outside of my local geographical area. I need to expand my social experience, and that need is far more acute in a real-time face-to-face arena than it is in the area of correspondence. so I am not looking for pen pals.

She has been up-front about her lack of interest. Beyond that, however, I may have inadvertently misled about the nature of our relationship. We do not "hang out" together one-on-one. We never have. Rather, our circles of friends have several intersection points, and we engage in several of the same activities. Right now we are working on a project together. All of these situations afford opportunities for conversation, but we've never "dated" or even called each other just to talk.

The impact that this woman has had on my life can hardly be overstated, for reasons that go well beyond "relationship" matters. Trust me, the frustration I suffer is entirely worth the benefit I gain from having her in my life.

By the way, I love the poem. It's about as biting as you can get. Very effective. And yet, ironically, the first stanza of the poem is as applicable to my lady friend as the rest:

Oh, mercifullest one of all,
Oh, generous as dear,
None lived so lowly, none so small,
Thou couldst withhold thy tear

She has a very open heart.

Gnome,

I agree EYE CONTACT AND A SMILE!! It can make a world of difference.

Eye contact can say so much, as the eyes are the window to the soul. It also shows an aire of confidence.

You can even practice making eye contact w/ say the cashier at the local grocery store, or women at work, make eye contact, smile and say hello.

It is a mild form of flirting but not over the top.

Because it's not a bird, but a handful of feathers.
And having your hands full of feathers makes it hard to hunt the birds.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

-AD

Once upon a time, in the land of Metaphoria, there lived a little gnome who loved birds. He had a pretty little house in the middle of the forest, where he spent many pleasant hours sitting at his window listening to the birds singing and admiring their plumage as they flew from tree to tree. Once years earlier he had had a particularly beautiful bird actually nesting in his house with him. He woke up every morning to the bird sitting on his pillow and singing sweet songs in his ear, and he loved feeding the bird out of his own hand, but one day it flew out the window and never came back.

Many of the little gnome's friends and neighbors kept birds in their houses, and they urged him to find another bird to replace his lost companion, but the little gnome merely smiled a little sadly and said nothing. To him it seemed that nothing could ever replace what he had lost, so he contented himself with his memories and went about his life.

But then one morning the most glorious bird he had ever seen alighted on his window sill and began singing so sweetly that tears came to the little gnome's eyes. He listened enraptured for several minutes until the bird flew away. Day after day the gnome sat at his window admiring all the birds flitting through the trees, but he was always hoping for a visit from that one special bird. To his great joy, every few days it came back to his window and sang briefly before it flew away again. Sometimes the little gnome tried to coax the bird to come inside the window, but it seemed oblivious to his efforts.

The gnome longed to have the resplendent bird live with him, and to feed it from his hand, but the bird was much too skittish for that. It would eat the seeds he left for it on his window sill, but it would always flee if he reached out to it. The bird's visits awakened a loneliness in the little gnome's soul and for the first time in many years, the gnome thought about trying to find another bird to fill the void. But every time he thought about venturing out into the forest in such a search, he was afraid that he would miss a visit from his new special friend, and he decided to stay home instead.

As the years went by, the gnome grew old and frail. He no longer thought of venturing out into the forest, but he still looked forward to the visits of his special bird. And then one day, as the bird flew away after a particularly heart-melting serenade, the gnome found a feather lying on his window sill. It was an exquisitely colored plume, and for hours the gnome sat with it in his hand admiring it. Then, finally, he sighed, took out his pen-knife, and sharpened the quill. He shuffled over to his desk, pulled out a piece of parchment, dipped the quill in his inkwell, and began to write...

If the little bird understood how much the gnome loved even the one feather, she would open her wings and fly to him, and make a nest in his cottage. The evil enchantment would fail and suddenly the gnome would no longer seem old, but strength and vigor would shine from him. Strange things would happen in the night. Soon the gnome's cottage would be filled with the "cheep" "cheep" of little birds, as beautiful as the first, but somehow gnomish.

The neighbors would smile when the gnome walked by with his little flock.

The sun would shine more proudly than in former days. The moon would always be full - and the air sweet.

But, she did not understand. And when the gnome had spoken to some of his neighbors about the feather, they also affirmed that such feathers had been seen lying about here and there. Soon, the bird would make a nest - in a tree over the spot in which the gnome parked his car. Another bird would come to help her build the nest - and every morning there would be deposits made - on the windshield.