FF,

Well, I read the words you wrote, AGAIN, very carefully. You are right. Deeply depressed doesn't even cover it, really.

After I posted to you that I was going to run some errands this morning, I made it to one of the errands. I got out of there as fast as I could because, truthfully...I just didn't know what to do.

Things have been spiraling out of control for me for eight months now. Then add that to the compilation of pain from my life before then.

It's odd...I always thought someone would have to make a conscious choice to commit suicide. I thought they just decided and then did it. That has never been an option for me before because I have children, and I have an obligation and a desire to protect them. I have never felt I could make such a selfish choice - one that would hurt them that way...no matter how bad things got.

This past week there have been 2-3 times that it has not felt like a choice. It has felt like something I could not control. It has scared the living hell out of me. I seriously considered admitting myself to a hospital on each of those occassions.

Today, after my first errand...I knew I couldn't go on like this anymore. It takes more than I have. I considered driving myself to a hospital, but that has so many repercussions. I realize death has permanent repercussions, but if there is another alternative I would rather opt for it. If I hospitalized myself, I would have an awful lot of explaining to do since everyone in my life thinks I am the "happy newlywed". I also have a lot of responsibilities. I have two teenagers, and a business to run. My income is also needed and if I don't work, I don't get paid. Self-employment has it's advantages, but sick leave isn't one of them.

So I drove myself to the MC's office - without an appointment. She wasn't there. As luck would have it (or God, perhaps), there was another lady there and she was available to talk to me. We talked about some things. She taught me some relaxation techniques. Most importantly, I realize that my personal state is pretty dire. I have to address that RIGHT NOW, as you said. My marriage is important, but I am unable to participate in it. I can't even participate in life right now, much less a marriage.

I am not sure what I'm going to do about that, because I don't wish to separate. I don't want to risk losing my marriage by neglecting Recovery, but I have some personal Recovery to do. Can they be done simultaneously? I don't know. What do you think?

What I do know is this...I have GOT to take care of myself. I can't go on like this anymore. The way I have been handling things is suicide...just a little slower. I either run around trying to take care of everyone else's needs, or I simply isolate myself from everyone and everything. I live on a diet that consists of Xanax, cigarettes, and Diet Coke with Lime. I have lost 32 lbs. since D-Day. 20 of those lbs. was in the first month. The other 12 has been this past week.

This past week I discovered definite confirmation that OW is pregnant. I know her due date, and it is within a time frame that there is a possibility that it is Patriot's child.

I love Patriot with all my heart. I will stand by him no matter what happens. But, I can only do so much. I can only do as much as I am capable of. I'm doing the best I can. Unfortunately, that hasn't been enough thus far, and I am going to have to do something else because my children need me.

I am struggling with so many things right now. It's as though a lifetime of pain and rejection has caught up with me, which is weird because I have always been pretty adept at expressing my feelings. I thought I always dealt with my emotions, and picked myself back up. All of this past eight months events has just been one time too many.

With that said, I would like to address some of the statements and questions posed by some others here on Patriot's thread, specifically because I am in great need of help and the more accurately people understand the situation and where I'm at, the more helpful their advice may be. I hope so. I sure do need it.

From Patriot:


What I am feeling now is an accumulation of things from other people over a lifetime. You are responsible for your part in it, but you are NOT responsible for all of it. Truth be known, you are the only one of all of those people who gives a damn whether I heal or not. You have been the only one that has even cared whether they hurt me or not. I am grateful for all the times you have been there for me. I am grateful that you posted this, simply trying to help me. Thank you for still being here for me.

Also from Patriot:



You know how big I am on honesty and openness. So I will try to be frank, and still protect your feelings. If I fail, please offer me another way to express myself that accomplishes both...

That statement makes me angry. Had you have known??? What did you think was going to happen? This statement makes it sound like it was okay to hurt me...just not this badly. You knew how devastated I would be. You chose to do what you did, regardless.



Exactly. What's done is done. I can't change it, and neither can you. The damage has been done. I'm not sure what I can do now to make things better, but I have a suggestion for you. Perhaps you could save that energy you spend on regret. Perhaps you could use that energy, instead, to bravely explore what it was that enabled you to do what you did in the first place, and then kindly disenable it. I know you are working on this, but please don't let this be one of those things that gets put on a back burner. Delve into it the way you delve so passionately into the debates you so love to engage in on this forum, or the Calculus, or the online game you used to play.



It is true that I do want to be happy. Maybe there are some people who WANT to wallow in misery. I am not one of them. I DO want to be happy. I DO miss it. You say you would seek out what makes you happy. I don't see anything. If I could find a way, I would. I'm looking. I'm trying. I know you don't understand.



Mine used to work that way, too.



This is true. It's miserable enough just being miserable without making someone you care about miserable, too. I don't want you to be unhappy, and I don't wish to impose some life sentence on you. Why do you find this difficult to comprehend?



and this is fulfilling HOW??? My fear is that you love the person I used to be. The happy one. I fear that you are waiting for her to return, and if she doesn't you will not be happy. I am not that person anymore. Even in the best case scenario, I will not be that person again.


From Melodylane:



I will extend that this is true. Some of what I am feeling seems to go quite a bit beyond necessary, though. However, I will extend that it does make me feel like something is wrong with me. To me, the way I am reacting seems like a natural response. It kind of makes me frustrated sometimes, because Patriot and the MC seem to be giving me that message...that I am the problem. It makes me want to say, "Why am I the one who is the problem??? Why is HE perceived as the hero just because he is sorry for what he did??? Why is it that I was the one who remained faithful, met his needs all along, and suddenly I am the perceived as the villain because I am not responding with what they consider a reasonable amount of pain???"


From Trix:



I only need to hear this if it is completely true. If Patriot has doubts he can remain here for the long haul, no matter what, I desperately need to know that. I CAN NOT AFFORD to be blindsided again, or to be falsely led. I need to know what I am up against here.



Well, I don't know what the "clinical" definition is...but if this isn't it, I surely don't know what is. I started taking Zoloft this afternoon.

As far as hormonally challenged goes...WHAT hormones??? Sorry...that was a feeble attempt at humor. I am lucky enough to be smack dab in the middle of menopause at the ripe old age of 35. I had cancer when I was 27. The removal of certain body parts and the radiating of others has brought about early menopause, along with the inability to have more children. That fact has me feeling like it's just one more way I am inferior to OW. It sure gives the self-esteem a beating, particularly when some of the treatments for my cancer has left me with secondary conditions that are incurable, such as lymphedema. I'm kind of self-conscious about it. I do take a low-dose birth control pill for estrogen. I don't think it's cutting it, though, because some of the menopausal symptoms still seem to exist. I have an appointment soon to discuss these issues with a physician.

From someone else:


Uh, Patriot...good luck turning me into someone else. This is scary advice. If you tell someone who is feeling hopeless that they are, in fact, hopeless, they just may believe you. Geez, AM I a hopeless case?


From Melody:



I am so sorry for your loss - beyond words.


From Loy:



That would be nice.

From FF:



Sought out the IC myself today. She was very nice, and I wouldn't mind seeing her again. I don't think she has much experience with infidelity, however. She, along with our MC, keep telling me to leave the past behind and move forward. She doesn't understand the need to know details. How can all these MC's think it is healthy for there to be so many secrets in a marriage??? With Infidelity being such a big issue in today's society, you would think there would be more counselors who had experience with it!

I have suggested the Harleys to Patriot before.


From B2M:



Well, hell. If people here have the right to post what they want, I have the right to respond to it the way I want, too. What a load of crap this statement is! You are ACTUALLY going to compare my feelings of hopelessness and depression to the conscious choice of someone to have an affair????



Hmmmm, let me see...NO! That is not the message. I don't have any desire to conjure up pain to prove a point. I would really rather just be happy. The whole "fake" comment by Patriot was taken a bit out of context. What I actually called "fake" was our marriage. What I meant when I said that was that most others here are REBUILDING their marriage. In our situation, just about the time we would have been growing close in our relationship, Patriot began his A. We then got married. So we are simply trying to BUILD something...not REbuild it. I also meant that it is difficult for me to act in a way that isn't genuine. I don't like acting "fake". He said that it bothered him when I called our marriage fake, so I no longer say it. The fact is, it isn't fake. We do have the legal document that says it's real. I just hate being "fake" around everyone else. I get tired pasting that "happy look" on my face at work and around family. Almost daily, I hear comments about how great I look, so marriage must be agreeing with me, or how easy it is for me to lose weight because I'm so happy now that I'm married to the perfect guy, etc...It's a business setting, so I just smile and go on...but it makes me uncomfortable to lie, or even to not be open with someone. I realize that I am the one who has chosen not to reveal this to everyone. The fact is, that would make me even more uncomfortable, so I simply chose the lesser of the two evils. Also, it wouldn't be very professional of me to spill all to my clients, and they are the ones who usually make such comments.


From Drucilla:



I am trying, but it is difficult. It is very hard to accept and understand how he can say he loves me, unless he just SUDDENLY fell in love with me after the A. I have a hard time understanding. I have an even more difficult time accepting what he has done. I do not understand how someone could lie and lie for such a long time (18 or so months) to someone they supposedly care about, betray them over and over again, and never feel guilty enough to stop.

I guess I could grasp a short-lived affair, and then someone maybe saying to themselves "What the HECK am I doing?" I guess that could be a mistake. But this is a different scenario. He actually told me that he never even really felt guilty. So I am somehow trying to accept the fact that this man, who is so remorseful now, is capable of lying, cheating, deceiving, putting my life and well-being and that of my childrens, without even feeling guilty, for a year and a half with someone he didn't even love. It is hard to accept that. It is equally as difficult not to wonder what else he is capable of.


From Toprope:



Okay, TR...the answer you got from Patriot on this one and my answer differ greatly.

His answer was this:



My answer is this:

Yes, I am angry. It may have saved me a lot of further grief had he answered my questions in the beginning, truthfully. He didn't. That is a fact. I DO believe that having secrets between us builds walls and continues to keep them there.

I did say to him that I wasn't sure if I wanted to go back and do it now because I was afraid it would hurt too much. BUT, not even a week ago...I woke up feeling a bit emotionally detached and able to handle some answers. We had the time, so I asked questions. He stated before that his fear was that I would ask such specific questions and he wouldn't remember the answers. This time, I began with very broad questions. He said before that things kind of began with flirting on a business trip to Chicago, but that there was no physical encounter on that trip. The question I asked him last week was "How did things progress from casual flirting to 'meet me at a hotel room'? He said he didn't remember. I asked him another similarly broad question. His answer was also that he did not remember. I didn't see any point "pulling teeth", so I calmly told him that I didn't believe the discussion was going anywhere and I didn't wish to continue it.

Okay, I'm spent now.

Thank you to all who responded. It means a lot that you would take the time to try to help someone you don't even know.

Froz

I have been there and still feel that way some days though not as bad lately. It is quite scary. I never wanted to risk having my children taken away or my H get custody or if we go for C with OC blow it by being hospitalized so I just dragged myself through the days. I finally had my AD's increased and I am finally feeling more like myself. It may take about 2 weeks or so for your meds to kick in. Don't give up while you are waiting. I am so glad you are getting help, my IC was wonderful. We spent hours talking about my M, my childhood etc.. I did a lot of healing during those sessions.

Froz, I had a C look shocked when I said my H's infidelity hurt more than my son's illness. It is true though, you lose all control of your life, you lose your security, your belief in who that person is and I felt that way after me having an A myself.


I suggest for now you put this issue on the back burner and work only on your personal and marital recovery. Once the child is born and DNA is done you can deal with the outcome, good or bad.

My A lasted 2 years. I felt guilty the whole time but yet somehow was able to compartmentalize that part of my life. I lied to my H for years! I loved him dearly, always did. I was stupid and immature about the way I handled my needs not being met. Even though I felt guilty it took a long time to stop the A. I had myself convinced that my H did not care about me and justified continuing my betrayal. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Froz, there are many wonderful people here who would like to help you and Pat. I do believe though that your personal recovery is the most important. I would still suggest that you and Pat cut back on work obligations and spend as much time together as possible. That should help you build those feelings back up for each other while you are working on yourself.

{{froz}} I hope some of this made sense.

Mine was quick in comparson (1.5 months) but the same thing. I felt guilt, but then justified it through convincing myself Sprint didn't love me and was in a marriage of convience. Now Pat's justifications might not be the same, but you push the guilt somewhere else by justifying someway...it hurts to say hear him say he didn't feel guilt at the time...but it's because of the frame of mind he was in during that time.

I agree with what FF says too on making more of an effort to spend even more time together...I think it was her or someone else who advised pat, when you eat supper in your room, to eat supper outside your door...to show the comittment. Set some boundaries on the computer time. But first and foremost work on yourself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> you are worth it.

Bump

Just thinking of ya today Froz - I hope you are okay

((((HUGS))))

Where do I begin?

What would help make you feel safe?

Wow, that's a big question. Probably about as big a question as "Where do I begin"?

I don't know what would make me feel safe. I guess that's a problem. If I knew what it was, I would do it ALL the time.

Xanax makes me feel safer because it helps me relax and one major obstacle lately is anxiety. I feel particularly anxious when Patriot is around. We are very uncomfortable around each other. I was calm today, until it was time to come home. The closer I got to home, the more anxious I felt. The closer to the time Patriot gets home, the more anxious I feel. I feel very uncomfortable in his presence.

In the beginning of Recovery, his presence was a comfort, so this regression concerns me.

Losing weight makes me feel safer. It makes me feel like if I look better, maybe he will see me as more attractive. It makes me feel like maybe I will feel better about myself. The funny thing is, no matter how much weight I lose, all I see is that I am fat, yet at the same time it makes me feel like I have some measure of control over SOMETHING.

I have changed my mind on some things I have said previously (from Patriot's post) and responded to them in an e-mail to Patriot:




I may not see the way, but I think it can happen. I want it to happen. I want to find the way, desperately. I do believe it is possible that we can get through this and be happy and strong. I realize I can’t control you, and that I do doubt you a lot, but I KNOW you are capable of loving and being honorable. I know I am, too. So, you see…it IS possible. I can’t change the past and neither can you, but it doesn’t HAVE to ruin our future. Not if we don’t let it. It can be better than before, because it can be REAL this time. I will never be glad that all of this has happened, but I can be glad that we have a common crisis that may bring us closer together because we shared that struggle and made it through to the other side. I don’t have to be glad of the way we got there, but I can be glad we are there, nonetheless. I want it so badly.





I do want to be happy. I don’t believe anymore that I can NOT. It is possible. Can I change that one to I am “afraid” I can not? I will no longer be insisting that I will never be happy. I can’t afford to take chances on that possibly being a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don’t know if it has been or not, but I am no longer willing to take that risk. I want to be happy. I will do what it takes to get there. I just don’t know what to do to get there, is all. I can’t even express to you how much I do want to be happy. I want it BAD. I wish I knew how to get there. I wish I knew the road, and I am afraid I can’t make it through long enough to get there. I’m really scared.





It is true that what I DID want is gone forever (past tense). Choosing for this to never have happened isn’t an option so I can quit wishing for that one. It isn’t true that I want nothing in this life anymore. I do want something – very much. I want to be happy. I want to be loved. I want to feel safe and protected. I want to be a good mother. I want to be a good wife. I want no more pain. I want to be strong. I want to feel pretty again. I want to be close to you. I want to feel joy at the smallest things again. I miss feeling excited about something. I miss having something to look forward to.





Not true anymore. I am hoping and praying.





I am scared for me, so I must value myself, somewhat. I am willing to work, so I must be worth something to myself. You are worth it, and the kids are worth it, too. Our marriage is worth it to me.





You hurt me deeply, yes. I may have felt and said I was waiting to die before, but now that I have had a glimpse of that actually being very possible…I am terrified and I am fighting to live. The problem is, I don’t know the way. I am also afraid that I have waited too long to really do anything about it. What if I passed the point of no return??? My primary emotion right now is fear. Fear that I was right before, or that I somehow made it right and now it’s too late to change it. Man, am I scared.





Don’t sit there, please. Please help me. Please use your God-given logic to help my very unclear mind find the way. Those people were wrong – the ones who said there was nothing you could do for me now. Help me find the way. I’ll do the work. Whatever it takes, it can’t be as bad or as scary as this.





I know you don’t understand, but I am having trouble finding something. I am willing to look, but I don’t know where to start. There is nothing I find very enjoyable or exciting, so I don't look forward to anything.





Please don’t let me believe this.







I want to. I do sometimes now when you support me and say nice things to me. I want to believe you, but I’m scared. I’m willing to extend you some faith, if you promise me that you will not sugarcoat or tell me anything that you don’t sincerely mean with all your heart. I know that will be hard for you, because you want to help me or say something nice to me. But if you sugarcoat or are dishonest about something, I fear I will toss out EVERYTHING you say, much the way one lie makes a court witness’ story no longer credible. I need complete and total honesty and openness. It will be hard for me, too…because it is hard to believe someone when they’ve lied to you so much. But I will try, too. I will try to choose to accept what you say as truth, even if it’s difficult. This is a difficult one for me. Everyone who has ever claimed to love me has betrayed me...some on small levels, and the major relationships of my life on huge levels. It makes it very hard to believe that the good things even exist. You did such a good job convincing me of how happy we were. It was the first time in my life I had known what love and acceptance even felt like. When you ripped it away, I believed it didn't really exist at all - not for me, anyway.





Reading that doesn’t make me feel very valuable to you. I know we hashed out a redefinition (at Sally's suggestion), but it still saddens me a little to read it, and while your logical mind may very well be saying that you won’t physically fall over dead if I leave, it would make me feel more important if it were emotionally pretty damn hard for you if I left you. I just want to matter to you – a lot.

Thank you again for humbling yourself enough to ask others to help.


So...that was what I told him yesterday. I am hoping and choosing right now to continue to believe it because I am starting to lose control over even myself and it's too scary to believe anything else.

Our greatest obstacles (at least for me) seem to be:

* The enormous anxiety I feel around him.
* The huge wall of secrets and how to approach that. I do want to be close to him, but it's hard when I sit there and wonder "Did he say that to her? Did he do this with her, etc..."
* The fact that this is all so huge, and it's not over. I don't know if I can do it...accept all this. It's a lot to accept.
* The pregnancy issue...I know you said put it on the back burner and I am, to a certain degree. But, I can't trick myself into believing it doesn't exist. I try not to focus on it or worry about it all the time, but I know it's out there - looming - and I am afraid. This has all been so much already. What has happened is hard enough to accept without that factor, as well.

I don't think OW or OWH knows that we know she is pregnant. As far as they know, Patriot is in Afghanistan, as he didn't inform anyone at his former workplace that his orders changed (at my request). They have obviously chosen to stay together, so if it is not their child, they seem to be proceeding as though it is.

I found out through my own resourcefulness and investigation. Her supposed due date is August 29th, which would mean a conception date around the first week of December. As far as I know, the last physical encounter with Patriot was November 5th. OW was on a business trip around November 12th (our D-Day) until November 17th (their D-Day being the 16th at my exposure to OWH). Supposedly, she was on the Pill. I got the due date from a baby registry, so that is just what they are saying the due date is...doesn't mean they didn't fudge a little to make it seem as though she conceived after the A for appearances. It doesn't seem likely to me that she returned from her business trip, stopped taking the pill and got pregnant within 2 or 3 weeks. Of course this is all speculation, and I don't anticipate that they will ask Patriot for anything. I would imagine her husband would want him to have nothing to do with the child. As far as DNA testing...I doubt that will really be necessary. One look at the baby should be enough as OW is Caucasian, Patriot is Caucasion, and OWH is Iranian. I am very nervous about this, as I'm sure Patriot probably is, too.

*The time issue - with Patriot working and going to school, there is little time to spend together. Factor in family obligations, children, and sleep and that doesn't leave much time for us. It usually takes us quite a while of talking before we begin to connect. By the time that usually begins to happen, our time is up. It gets to the point where I don't have the energy emotionally to even try, because it takes a lot to get there and then we always have to stop just when we start to accomplish anything.

*An impending trip with my family. It's a convention that my whole family participates in. It is in a different city every year. This year it just happens to be Chicago, of all places. The place where Patriot went on a business trip to Chicago that seems to have been the beginnings of the A. I don't want to go there. I would gladly opt out, but we have already committed to going and my father pays for everyone, so that would be quite rude. Also, the kids are really excited about going. I know they want me there. I may not have the opportunity to take a vacation with them like this again before my daughter moves out. She is going to be 18 in February. I wish it were ANY other city (except Miami). Also, it will be hard to paint on my "smiley face" for an entire week, particularly under such uncomfortable circumstances. I don't want to go, but I am obligated.

Sorry this is so long.

Froz, I only have a minute right now but already I see you making progress. Do you see it?

I see two things that stand out:

1. Pat needs to answer any and all questions you ask him openly and honestly. If you can perhaps write your questions down, give him time to ponder and then schedule some time for the answer period. I think IMHO this is key to the anxiety you feel around Pat.

2. The pregnancy. For now try to believe the due date and stop speculating. If the OWH decides it is not his baby then you may hear from them. Then again OM may accept the child as his anyway. Some men do.

Ok, I have to go get my kids. Will come back later.