Mimi:

Why are you getting so angry at this poster? I notice that you ALWAYS take people NOT running out and doing what Steve says so incredibly personal. People have to learn things in the end for themselves. Yes, it would be great if they listened to the "experts" and did it right the 1st time, but life usually does not work that way. I wish it did. You know that.

For the record, I am one "amateur" that knows more than Steve Harely. I am convinced he wouldn't know the 1st thing about how to place a Quinton Cathether......LOL.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (ok, not funny).

Sour........ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(LONG SIGH) Mimi, not fighting or running away....

Lemonman:

I am not mad at Milkshake at all! Just like I said, "I CAN't BELIEVE HER POST! The actual feeling would be exasperation-not worthy or deserving of my anger! Notice I put my <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> at the end. I think she fully understands this post to her. I have been posting and posting to her for several weeks. If I were to be mad, it would be about her not listening to me.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Read back over her thread...

I think you will see my point...

If you don't, that's all right with me, too.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Did you notice, also, BTW, what Steve told her? "Not much hope for the marriage...." I was SPECIFICALLY encouraging her to LISTEN to what he RECOMMENDED in HER PARTICULAR SITUATION...

Lemon, please don't jump to the conclusion that I think that Steve H. has all the answers. He is very gifted in what HE does.... I will definitely say that...

Thanks Mimi, Osxgirl, and Lemonman.

First, to answer Mimi and Osxgirl's question about SH's session - SH does not see much hope in my current situation, thus suggested that I protect myself and my son legally. Yes, he did suggest that I go for a legal sepration so that I can tell H "I am only doing this to protect myself but I am still open for reconciliation", and also because it is very difficult for one to stop a divorce precedure once it started. So I decided I would go for a LS rather than D that time I was talking to him.

But then he said he does not see much hope in my case (unless H realizes how much he has to pay and yet he cannot really see DS2 all that often), and also told me that if LS will not protect me much, then I would have to get D to get a better protection.

So that is where my confusion comes from. Osxgirl made a good point about the cost; I will have to spend a lot of money to do this LS, and yet in the end I will have to pay the same amount of money to file for D and also will face the risk of H renegotiating whatever we agreed, meaning more time and cost.

So from the protection standpoint and H's hard realization as to how much he has to pay (they seem to think H will need to pay more than what he is paying me), D will serve the purpose. The only drawback is like SH pointed out, "it is hard to stop once it starts" emotional affect.

But like OSXgirl did, one way to show H that I am still interested in saving our marriage while trying to secure some of uncertainties is to get agreement on major financial aspects but then not necessarily proceed after that b/c I am not interested in divorcing. Of course, however, once we reached the financial and custodial agreemtn, H will have no incentives to save the marriage now that the hard part is done.

Mimi, I am not "NOT LISTENING" to SH. I am. But like I said, even he said "LS or D" depending on the protection level. SH said "if you guys did't have a child, I may have to say it is almost an impossible situation, but what we are hoping now is that your H misses DS2 and realizes the life he is fantasizing about may not be all that great with the kind of money he has to pay you". It means some hope, yes, but not whole a lot.

And thanks Lemonman - yes SH is close to God when it comes to saving marriages, but there is always something else we can offer...

Mimi:

I think I do tend to jump to that conclusion about you and your thougths on him. I think I am also guilty for not having read the entire thread here to know what was going on. Shame on me for jumping to conclusions when I didn't have all of the information. Admitedly this is still a bad habit of mine... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> On my post call days, I do get lazy.

I didn't mean to offend you. It is all good. I should have read the entire thread first.

Now, this was a conversation between you and I that could have potentially "blown" up into a pi$$ing contest just a few months ago.

NOW THAT IS PROGRESS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Sour.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, as SH said, the hope is that WH realizes the life he's fantasizing about isn't as great as he thinks. That's what getting the financial stuff settled (and make sure it is all signed and legally binding!) without necessarily starting the divorce does. You hope he'll get a glimpse of what life is really like being divorced without it actually happening. When faced with the reality of pursuing the divorce himself, it may (or may not) wake him up.

But you HAVE to talk to a lawyer. I was able to do it that way because of the way divorce is handled in Maryland. You may not be able to do the same in Illinois - I don't know. And for me, by the time we had the settlement agreement in place, there would have been no going back for me - I wouldn't have taken him back at that point. But I still made him file, because he hadn't really taken responsibility for anything through the whole mess, he blamed me (even though he had the A!) So my refusing to file for divorce, and making him do it, was just my stand on principle at that point. And I know he still blamed me for "forcing" him to do all he did. Sigh.

The point I've been trying to make all along though is that I don't think you should be looking for hope, or asking people if it can be saved. The point you're at, the way you need to handle things, is such that that question is irrelevant. Because of his actions, you need to protect yourself - which means LS or D, or at the very least, signed and binding settlement agreement, if that's possible. And through it, you don't want to let the process change who you are, so you should try and be fair and reasonable throughout, as well as willing to consider if he makes honest attempts at reconciliation. If he wants to reconcile and is sincere, he will also recognize that his actions left you little choice but to protect yourself, and will be understanding and patient with the things you have done to protect yourself.

In other words, based on where you are, whether or not there is hope for saving the marriage just doesn't matter. How you handle it should be the same either way. And continuing to dwell on it and look for reasons to have hope takes your focus off of what you need to do, and also makes you continue to appear needy to him, which will only make you LESS attractive to him. I know it's counter-intuitive, but as long as he KNOWS he still has your affection, it's easy for him to decide he doesn't need it. The saying is true - sometimes you don't realize what you've got until it is gone. But first, he has to really feel like it IS gone!

Thanks guys. And sorry for the unnecessary tention btw Mimi and Lemonman. This really shows how seriously you all take our relationships and my own concerns, and I am very grateful for that. Really, THANK YOU!!

I cannot keep wishing for unrealistic hope at this point. I just have to move forward, b/c whether H will come back or not, this is the ONLY option I have for now.

I made another appointment with a lawyer (since two I have left messages with a couple days ago have not returned my calls) and am going to see him/her. I will ask if there are anything else other than LS that is considered legally binding and less expensive.

If not, and if they explain that LS is just as expensive and time-consuming and yet does not really protect me b/c H can renegotiate the terms, etc., then I may have to consider D but just to get the financial and custody issues straight.

Oh, this is so much pressure! Relax, relax, relax.... H will HATE me for this, but that is just too bad. I have a son to protect. Get a grip MILK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Aagh.

MS:

Come on girl, why are you so quick to take the "blame" for things in life. Mimi and I's "tension" has been a "long term" issue that we are happily working out over time with marked progress It was here long before you ever came on the scene......It is all good.


Sour.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WHEEE!!

Yep, I'm feeling no tension today. I'm dressed too pretty in my "CORAL OUTFIT".

Yep, LEMON, as far as I'm concerned, all remains good between us. At least, for TODAY, AT THIS TIME... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, my dear, it was good that you qualified that with "AT THIS TIME"....LOL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SOur... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How do you insert the icons by the way? I tried but it didn't work!

Anyway, I just came back from another attorney's office. He did not recommend the LS either, for the same reason. You will end up spending way too much time and money on this, yet when it comes to D, you will have to start all over again. Also, since I have a relatively sizable assets (equity in the house), he said I am not really protecting myself by filing for LS b/c the assets will not be divided.

Also, I asked him about the similar tactics OSXgirl used - that we can agree on terms but then putting D on hold. He said we cannot do that, since even if we agreed btw us and we signed on it, w/o judge's sign, it is worthless. And when the judge signs is when D is granted. So I cannot secure my position w/o D!!!!!!!!

Oh I am so so scared. Do I have to file for D??? I don't want to divorce! But H will not do responsible things so I have to do something. Oh my head is spinning. Isn't funny that I am FORCED to file for D, simply b/c H wants out but he is not doing anything about D filing? Go figure...

What would you do?

oosxgirl:

this was some great advice (I don't know how to use quotes either):
Now, as far as the lawyers... higest price does not always equal best. Choose the one you were comfortable with - the one who was best able to explain things in a way you could understand, the one who seemed to have time for you. Sometimes, getting the popular divorce attorney is a mistake - they can have so many cases that it becomes like an assembly line to them. Find the one with whom you can communicate, and who you feel has your best interests at heart.

I had my appointment today. This lawyer is kind, Has talked to me on the phone and given free advice and today's appointment for him to review the revised property settlement my husband proposed to me, lasted 2 hours but he only charged me for 1 because he said that we could have finished sooner if he needed to rush but did not have an appointment right after mine so he took his time. All lawyers should know the laws of your state-personality and cost is what makes them different

having said that: This would not be the lawyer that i would be using if my husband and I were not negotiating together but were instead arguing over things. He got a lawyer that is a SHARK and she's advising him to file all kinds of things-causing more problems and more money in her pocket. Poor guy (ha!) he's paid for a separation agreement draft, put down a $2,500 retainer that is getting eaten away, and I've paid $150 for a deal that is way in my favor! If I were up against the two of them, I'd find myself a lawyer that is just as cutthroat and I'm sure much more expensive.

I still hope for reconciliation but if it does not occur, i will have protected myself.

milkshake
I also live in MD. It sounds as though our states "limited divorce" is the same as your states "legal separation"
The courts decide the use of the assets, the amount of money each person puts towards expenses and provides for the chilren. But it does not give possession of any assets.

How expensive is the limited divorce process? It would at least protect you financially from debts that your husband incurs right?
I was advised also that a limited divorce was just an extra expense-so I went with no agreement for one year, to buy time. My husband is still not home and now he wants an additional $15,ooo than he wanted a year ago to buy him out of the house.
If it buys time-weigh the cost with the possible outcome. I agree-divorce is so final I'm avoiding it too.

but hey, my situation is even more hopeless than yours-i don't have chilren for him to miss. I won't even call for a session as I DO NOT want to hear from the people who should really know what I don't want to really know or accept.

I know....denial...but I'm in the middle of my property settlement agreement as we speak.

eav1967:

Thanks for sharing your story. It's a tough call.

Another thing the lawyer I met yesterday suggested was to just give him a lump sum I am willing to give out, get the house, and accept only the 20% of H's NI. The rational behind is that I have a large equity in the house so that would be in my favor. Now, by giving up extra money each month by asking only the minimum amount (20%), I am giving something probably H values more at this poiout, thus avoiding the unncesessary long battle. Also, this way I do not have to worry about keeping track of every single expense related to my son and asking H to pay half of it. That would be a nightmare for the next 15-16 years, and the attorney told me "you want to have a life, you do not want to be upset about H not paying the half in the future every day", which is a very good point.

The problem I see here is that if I make this all easy for H, then he will just agree, and that's the end of the story. Since H wants to minimize his monthly payment to me, the 20% offer sounds good to him, and what I am hoping to accomplish (the life H imagining may not be all that great from the monetary stand point) cannot be accomplished.

And the other component - our son. I was hoping H's attachment to DS2 is so strong that he would face the hard reality of not being able to meet him so often.

Well, this week so far H only called Tuesday night to talk to DS2, and no other words either by email or phone. He is busy meeting up with new girls (my guess but I think I am right - I met with his sister yesterday and she does not think H is necessarily with someone particular but is trying to meet someone and having dates), that even DS2 comes second. Sad, but that is the reality.

So, I feel stuck. Filing for LS would cost just as much as filing for D and yet it is not legally binding when it comes to a final D. It is binding only in the time being. Plus, if H finds out that the monthly payment will be much greater (if it is LS, most likely H will need to pay more every month), he will naturally want D to get over with it. At that time, he will probably ask more, like eav1967's WS is doing a year later. I think that is just a human nature.

I am in denial too, eav1967. I feel extremely sad this morning thinking H is having fun with his new lifestyle and does not even miss us a bit. Good luck with your property settlement agreement, eav1967. Once you settle on the agreement, what does it mean for you? Separation or divorce?

i hope you can find something useful for my experience-i suggest looking at what you want and what you husband wants to aviod and using that to your advantage.

in my state-you have to live separate and apart for 2 years for a "no fault" type divorce. I could file at any time for adultry and desertion. I thought my husband had no grounds to allow him to file before the 2 years. I never suspected that he would invent cruel charges to try to get rid of me before then (constructive abandonment and it mentions physical abuse! and even worse...it says my husband was always kind, caring, and considerate!!! When?? before or after he crawled in bed with the 3 other women??) -but when i told him I would counterclaim adultry-he said it would ruin HIS life (hey! what about mine psycho?) and he had the complaint for divorce withdrawn fast!!

so our property settlement agreement (i refuse to allow it to be called a separation agreement as I have never agreed for us to separate) will state that we separated wihout my consent. The draft I re-wrote from his original agreement written with his lawyer states that we agree to use only the two years living apart as grounds but my lawyer told me yesterday that this was not enforceable in court. He says that as long as we do not have an absolute divorce (even with an agreement or limited divorce-according to law...we CANNOT have sex with others. If one of us does...the other can file on the grounds of adultry. He said no contract can give permission for a person to break the law and adulty is against the law. My husband is being generous because he wants money to buy a house (near the woman) and also, in my state, anything he buys without us having an agreement, would be half mine also he does not want me to claim adultry as he says he would rather admit the charges so that no one is brought into court. He aslo said he would not file anything against me again before the two years so that i would not counterclaim the adultry.

so for me....the agreenment protects me financially. It is in my favor but not so much that he would have really bad feelings. the agreement allows me to stay married( for the 9 months left in the 2 years.(at least on paper but-hey-that's all i've got now anyway)

so my plan is: 1. stay married as long as i can (small chance but better than hanging in after already divorced) 2. avoid love busters-and try to make some love bank deposits. My husband's greatest need is openess and honesty (imagine that from the lying-cheat!)so I have made a few counter-offers that we better for him than what he proposed-he is so shocked!! and thanked me for being OPEN and considerate. The changes will cost me a few buck $300 for one, a small increase in the amount he will get from our income tax refund if we file together but it is already greatly in my favor, and generous visitation with the dogs until i decide if i'm keeping both of them. 3. keep contact so I can make some deposits...the agreement has about 30 house repairs that he will do-some are time consuming so he may only do one or two big ones per visit and picking up/dropping off the dogs.

i know there is not much hope...but i'm doing all I can and trying to be smart financially without giving up. YOU SHOULD NOT GIVE UP EITHER IF YOU LOVE HIM!!! anything is possible with love!

can you try to use any of these kinds of strategies?

ps. hope you don't mind if I highjack your post for just a second....I could use some real help...i'm not sure if I should be using plan A or B-I don;t understand them and could use some advice on my situation. There are many peole posting here with great input...I'd appreciate anyone who is willing to take a look at my post and help!

Thanks for your input eav1967. We have a dog too and when I asked, H said he wouldn't mind having the dog with him so that he won't be alone, but in the end, I still have the dog and H doesn't care. Your H at least still misses your dogs! H misses DS2, but only when he misses him and frankly I don't think H is capable of taking care of DS2 alone. H is comfortable seeing his son only during weekends when he does not have any time pressure.

I don't mind your highjacking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I was suggested by others that I limit my emotional contacts with H, but they may have different suggestions for you depending on the situation.

I don't want to give up. But "giving up" itself suggests that there is something. I started to feel that this "something" I want to believe in may be just an illusion and H has long gone. I am trying to do what I need to do right now, and one of the steps is to protect me and my son financially through a legal counsel.

Should I go for LS, even if it costs me more? But it is not just the cost for now, but it can backfire and end up costing me whole a lot more when it comes to D. I am so torn. I am so afraid of making mistakes.

what state are you in?

how much extra time might a legal separation buy you? did your lawyer suggest what it might cost?

for your husband.....money seems to be an issue...how can you use this to your benefit?

I live in IL. The time and money that would take for a LS is same as for D. So if we agree on every term, it will be quick and less expensive, but if we disagree, it will take longer and expensive. But because we do not decide on asset division, it can take a little shorter than D. But H has told me several times that he would give me the house, and if he keeps his word, then asset division may not take that much time.

In Illinois, we have to be separated for two years. But this includes "emotional" separation, so by this December (this is when H said he wants out), we can say technically we have been separated for one year. Of course, if we agree we can waive this 2-year separation period.

H keeps saying he does not have money, which is strange, b/c he makes decent salary and is not paying much for his apartment right now. Also his car payment is included in mortgage (which I have been paying), so he really does not have anything else except for the monthly payment he makes out to me.

One time (although this is almost three months ago and since then H has changed his mind about D and asset split and everything so may not mean much), H suggested that we STAY married until we find another partners, to save legal costs. WHAT??? I really did not understand. Maybe what he was saying is that we should not spend on lawyers in case we end up not finding anyone else and decide to get back together. Who knows. But now H keeps saying "D is the only way" so obviously he has changed his mind.

One of his friends he met at the SA group counseling (I am not sure if they are still in contact) divorced his wife, but apparently they realized they love each other so they are back together now. H mentioned about this guy and his wife several times and said that "I need to go through that too MILK". H also said one time "D is the only way now. Then one year or two years down the road if we think we shoud be together then we might do that". But I don't know if H really feels that way or saying it so that I would agree to D without much fuss.

Again, I should not be spending too much time thinking WHAT H is thinking or doing b/c that is not healthy for me, but I am doing this to anwer my own question of "why isn't H doing anything about D if he wants it so badly?" And the reason I am doing this is just to figure out what is important to him so that I may be able to use it to my benefit.

And my own answer used to be "after all H is scared of actually filing for D", but now unfortunately it changed to "H is simply afraid of incurring much legal cost, and wants to agree on terms with me, but at this point he does not think I would even agree to D, so he feels it is pointless to discuss it, b/c then I may turn around and hire a lawyer, which means he has to repospond and that means $$$".

Then $$$ hurts H. So if he realizes he needs to pay more monthly, that would hurt him. Would it wake him up? Not sure. So I am thinking I should not make a easy deal (like the one the young lawyer I met yesterday suggested) for him, such as giving him a lump sum and allowing him to pay the bare minumum every month. But again, I am worried b/c if he was asked to pay more each month, he will get so mad and can lose it.

Oh, this vicious cycle I need to get out of! I just need to do what is good for me and forget about how H might act!! But then does it mean D rather than LS? What did SH mean by "if D provides more protection you may have to go for D"??? What is the answer???

MILK:

I THINK you are getting it. You actually used the term that came to my mind yesterday for you-"vicious cycle".

I became exasperated yesterday with your post because you were starting all over again at the beginning of the cycle. Going around and around again, trying to find the answer is not going to work for you, MILK, in my opinion.

You have got to step outside of this. Try to start a new life for yourself.

I think what Steve H means and what I mean is that the main thing for you to do is to PROTECT YOURSELF LEGALLY.

You should consider a marital separation agreement instead of a legal separation!!

I found this online for Illinois divoce laws

Illinois separation agreement:

A marital separation agreement, also known as a property settlement agreement, is simply a written contract dividing your property, describing your rights and settling issues such as alimony and custody. material most commonly found in Marital Separation Agreements include child custody and visitation, division of real and personal property, education, insurance, tax returns, and retirement benefits

A Marital Separation Agreement should not be confused with filing for a Legal Separation (or Limited Divorce).

might be less expensive-divides assets-and can be incorported INTO your divorce-it basicly becomes the divorce paperwork- so would not be a waste of money

EAV,

Thank you!!! I was doing a lot of research and reading up a book, and also asked the lawyer yesterday if there is anything else other than LS and D, but he said "no"! I will surely look into this. Thank you thank you thank you...!!!

MILK

Hmm... did some reading - the separation agreement in Illinois is basically the same thing as the settlement agreement in Maryland that we discussed earlier. And the stuff I read said it didn't have to be filed with the court. So now I wonder a little about the lawyer you talked to. Sure, I understand that there is a settlement agreement during the divorce, and that does have to be signed by the judge. But I would think when you told the lawyer what you were trying to do, he would have mentioned the separation agreement.

Not sure what to think, but keep researching.

BTW, maybe this will alleviate your fears a little more about going through any of this stuff. Right now you do have to protect yourself from the selfish person your spouse has become. But I really don't think any of the things you do to protect yourself will hurt your chances for recovery. If he ever wakes up and comes out of this mid-life crisis or affair or whatever it is he's going through, he will be horrified at the things he has done. At least, if he is someone worth being married to he will be. And he will actually be grateful you had the presence of mind to protect you, your son, and the marital assets from him while he was out of his mind.

And if he doesn't come around, then this is all stuff you need to do anyway.

But really, that's the one thing I've noticed about WSs on this board that actually do go back to the marriage, recover, and make it work. They are extremely sorry for and horrified by all the things they said and did. They completely understand their spouse's reaction. And I have no doubt if you asked them, they would say that no matter how mad they might have gotten at the time, they are now glad for any actions the spouse took to protect her/himself. I haven't seen any say those exact words, but based on how they describe what they went through, and how much they hated the consequences of their actions while they were in the fog, I would bet it's true in most if not all cases.

And to me, anyone worth keeping after doing this kind of stuff WOULD see how selfish their actions had been, and would understand completely any actions his/her spouse took to protect him/herself and the children. For me, at least, if my X didn't see it that way (not that I would ever take him back at this point!) I would never feel confident in the relationship. I would always worry that his coming back was because things didn't work out with the OW, that he didn't have any "better" prospects right then, and that the second he found someone else he thought was "better" he would be right back out the door again. Who needs to live with that?