Thanks OSXgirl. Yeah, I know, I don't mean to just take some today and not take any tomorrow b/c I feel okay. I meant to say I may keep them around to see if I can be okay without them, but if I feel like I may get more depressed once the legal process begins, then I will decide to be medicated and start taking them on a regular basis. But since I already have the pills, I do not need to wait for another 2-3 weeks before making an appointment with the doctor.

Anyway, I lucked out! The lawyer did not charge me for today's meeting!!! When I was handed out the paper to fill out, I was thinking "hey, I remember doing this last month - did they throw away my file?". Then when the attorney and associate came in the room and introduced themselves, I was thinking, "hey, we met already", but did not say anything. After the meeting when they gave me their cards, I was certin they believed this is the initial "free consultation" session.

Aside from my saving big bucks today, it was a very good meeting and made me feel much better. It turned out that some of the things that inexpensive lawyer was telling me aren't all that true. Guess there is a reason why he is cheaper! Most of my questions have been answered after meeting with 10 lawyers and reading up a book and checking online, so I could really focus on "what if" scenarios today and our strategy, which was great. Now I feel all of my options and their possible outcomes, and I feel confident at least in this legal matter.

Also in terms of the pricing - this famous attorney may be involved if things get complicated, but otherwise the paralegals and associate can work on my case if it is standard, and in that case, I can actually SAVE money because paralegals charge less than even those inexpensive lawyers. The associate has 14 years of experience, which is even greater than the inexpensive lawyer I met, so I feel pretty comfortable. And in the worst scenario, the BIG guy is behind - that is good to know.

So all in all, I was extremely happy with today's meeting. I think I will hire them.

My mom has told me many times that as long as I maintain the positive attitude, good things will happen and I can eventually get out of the state of mind I have been in. And you guys ALL told me to do what I and MY SON NEED to do instead of worrying about H's feelings and actions at this point. That's really true. Thanks for your wise advice.

I had a good day yesterday and today has been good so far. I am just simply very glad that I am not breaking down!!!

Oh, just when I thought I was having a good day - my H called and asked if he is still covered under my medical insurance. Apparently he was late in signing up for his own dental insurance through his new job, he was asking if he could just pay me his portion of the insurance amount I am paying and if I could keep him on my insurance. Maybe this was a bad answer, but I told him "you better get your own dental insurance". What is he thinking? He can tell me that he is not interested in staying married to me and he does not care about me but I cannot drop him from my insurance??

By the way, what really makes me mad and disapoints me about H is that he called and asked how are things with me and DS2, pretending that he is CONCERNED. Then I said fine, he asked "oh, by the way, am I still on your insurance?". So sneaky. No shame or honor or anything. How much cheaper can he get? H does not have any pride as a man? How does he sleep at night? H was saying a prayer while he was still living with us, I am not sure if he still does it, but I honestly want to know if H really thinks he has God on his side. I asked him a few times when he was living with us. You know his answer was? He said "it is like those mobs who kill people and quickly after that they ask for forgiveness and say amen, right?" It was supposed to be a joke, but that is exactly what he is doing! Blaming me for everything for his actions and not being responsible for his own son, and yet thinks he will be saved. Oh I am so mad!!!

Good morning all. I have calmed down a bit, and now I am just sad that my H can only think of himself and BELIEVES he is doing the right thing for himself. H's father told me that H has always been a bit selfish but sweet. So even his father admits that he has always been selfish. Maybe that is what he learned in order to survive in the household where his stepmother was alcoholic and did not give much love to her step children. Or maybe it is simply in his gean, unfortunately (all three other kids share the same trait - selfish, low self esteem, impatient, impulsive, short-term oriented). Whatever the cause is, H has something that is so deep and complicated that I cannot help resolve. It is just so sad that I chose a man who was this broken. It is so sad that we ended up staying for so long and ended up having a child together. H needs help and I don't think now he even goes see his counselor. It's just so sad. I know, I cannot control him and I can only do things for me and my son, which I am doing now. I am just sad that the person I loved and still love based on hopes and based on my memories of him is not capable of having stable emotions.

Yesterday DS2 was not doing so well. He told me when I picked him up "my papa is coming to pick me up soon". The comment made me so sad.

I emailed H this morning, b/c I have a summer party to go to on Sat with DS2 and wanted to give H a heads up in case he was planning on picking DS2 up.

I said I would like H to spend some time with DS2, and he can either (1) pick DS2 up Sat night and keep him two nights and drop him off at his school on Mon, or (2) pick him up on Fri and drop him off Sat morning and again pick him up on Sun, or (3) pick him up Sun and keep him for two nights. The point is that H can spend two nights with his son. I told him probably (1) or (3) is better for DS2 b/c it will be easier transition and we can minimize his emotional pains. Then I asked him what he thinks (so that H does not think I am deciding everything for him).

H replied immidiately saying that he will do (1), and said "Thanks!" Then he said "I miss my little DS2!". You think I deposited a few points in his Love Bank account?

Actually I need to talk about finance with H (not about the big thing yet, but just about the check he will give to me), but since I just deposited something in his account, maybe I should wait until tomorrow to talk about it, otherwise I may be quickly withdrawing bigger points - today or tomorrow does not make any difference. Any comments?

I am not really thinking how to build H's love account now - I just want to do whatever I need to do in an amicable way, so that we do not have to become enermies.

H is behind the payment (to me) schedule and also there are few bills I have to pay or have paid already that really should be paid by him (his internet connection fee was charged against my credit card, for example), so sent an email this morning. I wrote it as a matter of fact, and instead of saying H should be paying more, I asked nicely "can you help in anyway?". The reason for this email is (1) at least I asked him first so H cannot get mad that I am sneaky hiring a lawyer behind his back, (2) to show my lawyer that H is refusing to pay what he really should be paying.

Of course H is furious. He sent me two emails immediately saying "no, i have my bills too and i have to have my life too". That line really shows he is not responsible, b/c what I was asking was for him to pay or at least help me pay for his own medical insurance, his own car, our mortgage, and our son's medical insurance. Oh he refused to pay even for his own internetc connection service fee.

H said he now is going to hire a lawyer and mediator. I am going to hire the good one I met on Monday. I wish we could come to an agreement so that we don't have to waste our money on legal costs, but if that is what H wants, that is very very unfortunate.

I don't recognize H. It's clearly b/c he does not love me anymore. H is treating me like his enermy. It's just so sad. I am the mother of H's son! H is asking for 50/50 physical custory as well, which no lawyers I have met so far said H would have a chance. After all H moved out and I have been taking care of DS2 by myself. Why does H want to waste his and potentially DS2's future money on something that he cannot even win? So stupid.

I don't feel God helping me and my son. This is so unfair and I don't understand H can get away with this.

I told him that it is very unfortunate that we fight because in the end our son is the one who looses and suffers. H replied and said he agrees, so let's come to an agreement. H said he would leave me the house but wants me to give him some lump sum so that he can make a down payment on a condo. Then he had a nerve to say he would pay only 16% of his net income going forward in child support!!!

Why doesn't he want to stop and think he might be making a mistake? Right after he moved out he was crying and said he missed us. Now he is so eager to move on with his life. I can't believe the past 15 years mean nothing to him. He is going to lose financially and emotionally b/c DS2 will never have the same feeling/relationship with his father once we D and move on.

If you are worried that I am not going to do something legally to protect myself, don't worry, I will do it. I am just really sad that this is the beginning of the end of our marriage and our family.

H sent me another email - he loves DS2 very much and wants to accomodate the whole deal with me, but wants to move on with his life and away from me. He said "you just have to accept that MILK".

Why does he say that when we are already talking about how to split the assets - I haven't used the "love" words in three weeks now. Why does he have to say those harsh thing to me still?? H is so cruel.

Went to see my old therapist. She is the one who kept telling me back in Feb-Mar period "MILK, this is NOT normal, unless your H gets help with his addiction, no relationships will work for him".

Well, after listening to what has happened since then, she told me "MILK, maybe you are NOT healthy either enabling H to act this way and also thinking if H gets better, things will work, if H does this, if H does that, etc. Healthy people will not stay with addicts. I recommend that you see another therapist who works for me. She specializes in people with addiction and their spouses."

This was a great offer, as I was going to ask about SA-NON meetings (we have played several phone tags and it seems I could never speak to anyone in person). She said SA-NON is not bad, but maybe what I NEED is more of an one-on-one type meeting. I would prefer that too at this point.

Then I asked her about family counseling. I clearly see the whole thing is affecting DS2, and wanted to see if he can get some help even at such a young age. She said the therapist who works for her also counsels very young children and that is another her speciality. GREAT! So I made an appointment with her for IC and another one for me and DS2 together, both of them for next week.

She said we can start working on legal issues such as asset division or deciding on child support, etc., but it will take some time anyway, and she is hoping in the mean time, say over the next four weeks, I continue to see this therapist and maybe I will feel more CONFIDENT as to what I should do. She said I need to know my position first, and have to change my way of thinking in terms of my relationship with the addict. Then after that, it is my call if I want to try to reconcile (well it does not seem like an option for me though) or to walk away. But first she said I need to really change my view on the whole thing.

I felt better after talking to them. I hope I can keep the semi positive attitude (AGAIN!) throughout this week.

Great news about the therapist, MILK!!

milk..you sound like you're getting stronger!!

Thanks Mimi and EAV. I get a bit stronger sometimes, and set back again when I see our pictures together or hear my son talk about his father. I told my therapist about that today, and she clearly saw that as well.

Before going to see the therapist, I was having one of those "negative" moments and ended up calling my father-in-law. He listened, tried to comfort me, but also said "I am still hoping that one day my son will wake up and get back to you, of course I am still praying for that every day. But MILK, I think it is going to be a long process, because I really think this is his mental sickness, and that takes time to heal. Please take care of yourself. I love you". I cried. I appologized to him b/c this is not a fun topic and I KNOW how much he has been praying and having the heartache from the whole thing. Poor father-in-law. I love him.

After crying for a while, I calmed down a bit. Then I went to see my therapist. And the conversations I described above took place, which encouraged me a bit.

I am fighting every second trying not to think of our sweet memories. I don't have to hate him, and I don't hate him. I get upset, but I don't know if I can ever hate him. But at the same time, remembering how we used to love each other, how we did something together, etc., only gives me heartache and I don't need to torture myself!!!

I made a lot of mistakes during our marriage but so did H. I cannot keep feeling guilty. Besides, aside from me being a nagger, I don't think I committed such big crimes over the past 15 years. At least I did not lie like H always did.

For now, like my therapist suggested, I am shooting for the next four weeks to see if I can get stronger. I really hope so. And when I get HEALTHY myself in a sense that I can truely FEEL that I am okay with or without H, maybe I may decide that for me and DS2, it is better off to be alone or with someone who is more normal and mentally healthy. I wish that was H, but right now he is not capable of being mentally healthy.

This weekend H will keep DS2 for two nights so I am a bit worried that I may feel vulnerable again being left alone. I am planning on going to the support group meeting again on Sunday morning, so at least I have something to do in the morning. I just need to keep trying to be positive... well it's really hard for sure though!!!!!!!!!

Okay, I am having one of those "weak" moments again. Any advice would be appreciated. Aside from working on myself is there anything I can do to make myself more attractive to H?

H told me yesterday "I am emotional about all this (= D), I am trying to be accommodating to you, but I love DS2 very much and miss him and I would actually prefer joint custody!!! He is my son too and I love him very much and miss him so much. But I want to make clear I am moving on from my relationship from you - you need to accept that".

H has been very detached and I can tell that he does not have any feelings left for me. I know people have told me to do what I need to do (legal actions), and I am doing so, but there is nothing then I can do but to watch our marriage die in front of my eyes.

If you have someone who is so detached from you, what do you do?

Can I reply to his email above?

I am in pain again...

milk,

so you've been advised that the only financial option is to file for divorce?

no separation agreement?

can you get by without an agreement or divorce financially to buy a little more time?

refresh mymemory: how long have you been separated and what are your laws regarding divorce time limits? you DIDsay your husband would not file right?

shouldn't you be doing a plan A? i don't really understand this much and have asked for help (but no-one is responding) but i thought that this was a way to possibly rebuildhis feelings for you.

No.

Most importantly, what are you going to do today to be attractive to yourself...



So what are you going to do about it TODAY?

Fight it, don't accept it, MILK!!

Thanks for your replies Eav and Mimi.

Yes, there is a way. Like you suggested Eav, I can combine both legal separation AND marital separation agreement (property separation agreement) to get the protection that divides the assets and decides on custody, visitation, child support, maintenance costs, everything. So that is one way to go. I was reading up this morning, HOWEVER, that in IL, legal separation is almost NEVER used. This explains why those lawyers I have met suggested that I go straight for D. I am not sure why that is the case in this state. But the lawyer I am thinking of retaining (the good one) said he has done legal separation and if that is what I want, he could do so.

H initially said he wants to get out of this relationship 8 months ago. And he actually moved out 3 months ago. In IL, we have to be separated for two years although can be reduced to six months, and six months include those we are EMOTIONALLY separated. So if H wants to make the case, I guess we could file now.

The reason H has not filed is simply because he does not pay so much for the lawyer. H told me on Wed that he would go ahead and hire an attorney and mediator to start hashing thing out. I told him it is unfortunate that we have to fight, as in the end the only party that is happy is the lawyers and DS2 will loose and suffer if we fight. H agreed, so we are trying to reach an agreement, at least in most part, so we can minimize the legal costs.

I sent him two emails related to our finance discussions yesterday but he did not reply. I left him a message this morning, this time related to DS2's health, but he has not returned my call either.

I really think H is now in contact with a lawyer (or at least trying to make an appointment with one) and has decided not to talk to me directly or something. H has said that he is moving on with his life and I did not specifically reply to that email, but did send him an email yesterday (because I sensed that he is upset that I am not accepting his proposal 100%) saying that "Please know that I do not want to do any of these. There is a solution to our marriage. Don't make a mistake". This is what SH told me to say IF H gets mad at me for contacting a lawyer. Well, H probably wouldn't have gotten mad for that reason now that he really wants to wrap up our D, but I used the phrase anyway. No response to that.

I am fighting Mimi. But all the negative signs from H really discourage me from doing things for myself and my son. The longer I wait and be in no contact with H, I KNOW the easier it becomes for H to move on. At least at the beginning he felt guilty or he missed us from time to time. Now he has NO sense of guilt but anger and is VERY looking forward to his new life. I really should have stopped H from moving out three months ago. Everyone told me that it was a good idea to have some distance, but I felt that I was risking too much. I think my gut feeling was correct.

I think a lot of cases you see here that are ended up in recovery are the cases where WS falls in love with someone else, but he/she is not necessarily HATE his/her spouse. Then I can see how when he/she comes out of the fog, the marriage can be restored. In my case H is so resentful and has so much anger towards me. Even if he is alone and miserable, he prefers being alone. How in the world can I work on our relationship then??

I am trying to fill my schedule and am becoming good at it. But it is sad to know that I am doing this ONLY because I have no option, and not because this MAY turn H around. It is a hard reality to accept. There is time I feel pretty okay without H, but that is also b/c I may be deep inside hoping that H would come back seeing me becoming independent. The reality is H will be quite happy to see me being independent b/c then he does not have to feel guilty at all.

I feel like I am loosing faith too. No matter how strongly I pray, H won't come back and he won't even suffer much. He can have his happy life and can continue to see his son every once in a while, which is plenty. I will be, on the other hand, left with a toddler who is going through the emotional trauma and seeing it will most definitely tear my heart apart. DS2 has to suffer, that is so unfair. We will be crying for H while he can be throwing a party with a "new" girl. And since H believes he is doing the right thing for himself, who knows he might be thanking God to give H the strength to do all this.

I just don't understand.

you and i are in the same boat milk.

our husbands don't seem to have an attachment to us that could lead them back and they are angry that we are keeping them from moving on.

i wonder if this is common and we just think our situation is different.

but 3 months apart seems like a short time! there should still be a chance left...he's got to still be attached to you and especially his son.


now in my case, melodylane has a good grasps on my situation...i really am in bad shape...15 months apart now and my husband really does not feel married in any sense of the word and does not seem to have any feelings of love left for me...i can't imagine how i can rebuild those feelings with a few e-mails, phone calls, and visits.

i love him. i miss him. i just want a chance to show him that it can be better.

i'm going to spend the rest of my life loving him and wondering what would have happened if he had just been willing to try. i know it.

Yes, reading your story makes me believe that we are in the very similar situation Eav.

So what is that we can do? I am not too sure if our 3 months being apart makes it THAT much better than your 15 months. I think after certain time passed (say the initial two to four weeks when the one who moved out is still going through an adjustment period), maybe it really does not make that much difference.

Eav, one thing SH suggested was that not to imply that we can "work things out", because that means "WORK", and for those like our H's who do not have feelings left for their spouses, why on the earth do they want to WORK for us? It's too much! So SH specifically suggested to use words such as "there is a solution", "wouldn't it be great if we can be in love again", etc.

We basically have to think of ways to make our H's fall in love with us all over again, and it is going to be much tougher than other cases where the spouses might still have feelings for their relationships but they are just "too busy" having A.

I tried writing a letter (it was more like a poem) explaining why I love H. H said "Thank you" for the letter, but then said "I don't know what to say at this point MILK".

For me, every time I send H emails letting him know that he can have DS2, he gets really happy and reply with a happy "Thanks!". I have hoped that H can gradually associate the happy feelings with ME, but so far that has not happened. In your case, can you talk about his dogs? I think I remember reading about your H not being interested in having kids, so for H, his dogs may work just like DS2 for my H.

Still, H has told me several times CLEARLY, "MILK, you cannot use DS2 to lure me back". Bingo! Okay, so what else can I do?

When H was still living with us, I mentioned that some guys were hitting on me since I took off my marriage ring (I took it off several months ago b/c H has taken it off 8 months ago, and I felt supid keeping it on forever - my mistake?). H, who that time was staying home looking for a job, called me at work and said "be careful, make sure those guys are after you not because they want to have sex. You are a very sexy girl. Be sure that they want to TAKE CARE of you".

I was sad to hear this. H is not even jealous! Anyway, so the jealous thing does not work either. Even though I know that the physical attractiveness is one of H's ENs (never asked him, but being an SA, he has always attracted to physically attractive women in the past). I am physically attractive but that does not seem to matter now.

Other H's ENs probably include Affection (might be #1, as H has complained over and over again that I did not show much affection in the past), SF, Recreational Companionship, and either Honesty and Openness or Admiration.

I asked H to go out without DS2, but he wouldn't go.

I am running out of ideas how I can deposit any credits to H's love bank. I guess that is why SH and people here have suggested that I take the legal actions to protect myself and myson, and make H face the hard reality.

But my friend who knows H made a good point: H is already facing the hard reality. H misses DS2 a lot. H's finances are not quite easy as he initially might have imagined, b/c now he has to pay for his own bills rather than spliting them with me and yet has to pay me some money for DS2. Did those hard facts wake H up? NO!!! So taking the legal steps will ONLY help me as protection but will not help our relationship.

People, for situations like mine and Eav, what else can we do? SH called it a modified Plan B, but I don't feel like I have done enough Plan A in the first place. Eav, at least you have done Plan A well. Instead, I think I didn't carry out the plan (I was not participating in this forum until H has moved out) in a timely manner while H was still here.

Although I have to admit that I have a fear - like OSXgirl mentioned, that even if H comes back, that he might leave again. My friends have said that too. The reason I say is that apparently, even when H was happy with me long time ago, he was still looking for another girl. That part is probably driven by his SA. And observing his sister (who is also ADHD and taking ADs. She was also alcohol dependent before) and his brother (who one time tried to kill himself when he was in college), they all have pretty bad personal issues (low self-esteem, depression, impulsiveness, addictive personality, laziness, selfishness), and it scares me to think I may have to go through this AGAIN in the future. If that is the case, of course then it is better for me to walk away now, minimizing the damage, especially to DS2.

But I remember a lot of good and sweet sides of H and simply cannot imagine my life without him. We met when we were in college and in a way, we grew up together. How can I forget about him? How can I pretend that H is not a part of my life anymore? Then I keep thinking, if we work really hard together, H will turn around and then we can keep this family together. Am I being too wishful?

Are there any guys who have read this LONG thread (sorry!) and who might have once felt the same way about your marriage (no love and had almost 'hate' feeling and wanted to run away from it), but then decided to go back to your spouses? Any advice?