milk,

i've been reading your posts. (ther's alot so it's taking some time)

i think mimi1254 has some great advice for you. go back and re-read her posts to you from the beginning. I have gotten on medication for anxiety recently. i think it's helping.
also-i believe it is possible that you're husband feels he's not "in love" with you because he confusing love with the intense feelings (lust) he gets from the sexual activities he's engaging in due to his sexual addiction (real or fantasy)

have you asked about seeing HIS SA counselor together?

p.s.
mimi1254 i'd love it if you could find the time to read and respond to my posts.

Hi Mimi and Eav,

Thank you for your replies. The therapist I met last week (right after I met with the doctor) told me not to take the medication. She said the answer is inside me and taking the medication will not solve the problems I am having.

Mimi, I know you feel that I seek your advice but never listen to you - I understand why you feel that way but that is not what I am trying to do. I am too scared to do anything - I am scared to take a step forward for D, negotiation, or even taking the medication. I feel that I am admitting the defeat and I can't move my feet forward.

How does everyone do it?

H told me this morning that he would hire a mediator so that we can start talking about our finances, custody, visitation schedule, etc. I told him in a matter-of-fact way
"Make no mistake, there is a solution to our marriage. We havent explored all of our options"
"See, that is why I have to hire a mediator b/c you won't even agree to D. And yes we have tried, and I don't want that. I don't want to work on our issues. I don't want to be married. I want to move on, and you should too"
"I understand what you are saying"
"And I don't want to learn Japanese. I am not interested in that"
"I understand that, that is okay"
"I don't want to keep saying 'NO' to you, MILK do you understand that? I hate hurting you"
"I understand that. But there is a solution. We have invested so much and built so much together. If we can be in love again, that would be the best thing. We can be happy together and DS2 will be happy. The happiest thing for DS2 is to be with both of us"
"I know that, but no. No, MILK, no, I have to go"
"Okay, I will talk to you later"

At least this time I did not break down in tears nor got emotional. It was hard to let him go like that, but I let him go.

But okay, I know all of you who have read and responded me in the past seem to believe that I should be doing PlanB or Michelle Weiner Davis 180 degree things.

Again, the reason I could not have been consistent was because I am terrified that I am only making this easy for H and he will gladly jump on the opportunity for D. Also H always says things like I am delaying this to get even with H, or to get more money from H, or something strange. From time to time, he seems to see that I still LOVE him and that is why I do not want to divorce, but I wanted to make sure H understands that my love for him is the basis for my "fighting". The reason I felt this way was also because I did not feel like I did a good Plan A. In fact, I don't think I implemented Plan A at all. Thus I was afraid to go right onto Plan B. Then for sure H will not remember anything good about me!

So since H moved out, I was trying to show him that I care about him and love him. Sometimes I thought it was working a bit (when I was remaining calm and letting H see DS2, he said to me a couple of times that he was not happy about the situation either but he was afraid to say 'okay let's get back together'). Then I decided to minimize my contact with H. I stopped calling him and writing to him.

The result, I feel, is worse. H is even more distant. H has moved on already, it seems. And I started to wonder maybe I implemented Plan B at the wrong timing. H is already feeling lonely and misses DS2 a lot. H already feels financial burden. Still he wants to move on. So letting him taste the reality does not seem to matter. If we go ahead and start the paperwork, H will have nothing to lose from this point on (he will miss DS2 but it is already happening)but to gain (sense of closure).

When I started to wonder about whether Plan B was a mistake for H, that is when he got sick last week. I called him b/c I was genuinely worried about him, it seemed H appreciated my calls, but then I blew it in the end. I felt so stupid and cried the whole morning yesterday.

And we had the talk this morning. That is where I am now. Do you really think I have done enough Plan A? I was not able to leave any positive impression on H. I am very scared to move onto Plan B.

I printed out my entire thread. I know once I truely start Plan B, what I am expected to follow. Those of you who have read my past postings must be pretty frustrated that I haven't even started the real Plan B. But again, the reason was I really did not feel that I did good Plan A in the first place. By now maybe none will recommend Plan A - or will anyone?

Okay...., don't think I am a hard headed one...

Take the medication, prescribed by the Dr.

It will not hurt you. It can only help you.

Research has proven that the best treatment for depression is medication plus therapy not one or the other. If that is what the therapist told you, she is not familiar with the research...

There is absolutely no reason not to take AD medication if this could help your job security and your overall functioning...

Thanks Mimi. I will try to be positive, including the medication.

Great! Take the Medication!

Mimi, walking away sighing......

Oh?? I have too much credibility??

milk,
i am in your situation and i am going to do plan A without chasing, begging, pleading...
i'll try to meet his needs and i WILL avoid love busters while i act like i'm dealing with this the best i can

what other choice is there if i don't want to give up?

I was reading Dr. Harley's Surviving An Affair this morning. He typically set a time limit for both Plan A and Plan B. In one of the example, he was recommending 6 months for Plan A and 18 months for Plan B, altogeher 2 years. The reason behind this 2 years is that typically an affair will end within two years (6 months to two years).

So maybe we should set a time table as well.

Is your therapy appt. with the new therapist today?

Yes Mimi, thanks for remembering! She is a younger therapist who works for my original therapist, but apparently has experience in addicts and their spouses. Also she counsels young children, so I will take DS2 tomorrow to see her again.

My therapist (the new one's boss) told me last week "deal with your own issues first with her. I want you to give yourself four weeks. Things should not change much in four weeks. Don't do anything during this time because you are not sure. If H files for D or separation, you need to respond, but still you've got some time. And after four weeks, hopefully you will be a little more clearer about the situation. Then if you still want to save the marriage and want to talk about the 'normal' marital issues, you can choose to come back to see me again."

Although what she does not understand is that I DO NOT have an option of saying "oh, I decided I want to save our marriage, and I need your help". I am there b/c it is hard and I need to learn how to deal with the situation. I WISH I had the option!!!!!

So did YOU see the therapist?

No, it is scheduled for this evening at 7PM CST.

well milk, i guess i'll wait and see what you share from your counseling session as we are in the same situation. maybe she can give some advice that can help us both

(are we married to the same guy??-oh no can't be-mine does/did? have another woman but other than that-they are like twins-and they both have decided they are "moving on without us")

no-one other than you and melody even read my posts so i'm not getting any new ideas or perspectives:(

please be sure to discuss the sexual addiction aspect with your counselor. i wonder how she will think this impacts onhis feelings towards you and his desire to reconnect.

Mimi, sighing with relief for you...

Great steps on taking care of yourself:

MEDICATION+PSYCHOTHERAPY...

Stay on course..it will begin to add up....

Anything you suggest that I should be asking?

The therapist's opinion of whether he has an addiction...

Strategies to help you work on feeling better about YOURSELF...

To help you learn to PROBLEM-SOLVE rather than getting caught up in a VICIOUS CYCLE in terms of your THINKING....

I asked the first one already - three out of four therapists I have met so far seem to think H is demonstrating at least some behaviors commonly seen among addicts.

The second and the third ones haven't been asked - well actually they have, but that is when I was seeing another therapist who did not really help (he basically never gave me his opinions. He just listened to what I had to say the whole time), and I didn't really get any good answers.

To #3 question, the not-so-good therapist said "you will go up and down, up and down, holding your expectations high, and you get disappointed by the actual situation, then your hope goes up again, then you get crashed again. You will repeat this cycle and finally you feel that you cannot keep your hope high anymore - that is when you know it is time to move on".

I thought it was horrible! I have to go through the vicious cycle in order to really be able to move forward? I will lose my mind if I continue such thing!

Anyway, I will ask the questions tonight.

I sent Dr. Harley an email today. I have done so before but did not hear anything back from him. I wonder if he would reply this time. I hope so. I have so many small hopes now b/c my biggest hope does not seem to become real...

I agree with Mimi for the most part here, except I don't think getting caught in the cycle as you are is as much from THINKING as it is from EMOTIONS. The thinking part seems to follow from your emotions....

- You start missing him, or you see just a tiny bit from him that gives you hope, so then you start thinking that the best way to handle things is to start telling him again how you love him, that you don't want divorce, etc.

- Then he does something to make you wonder, and you start questioning him, and, from what you've said, I think you do try to be controlling somewhat.

- Then you get sad and upset and start thinking the best way to handle it is Plan B.

And round and round you go. It is hard - your emotions are on a huge roller coaster ride, and it can be very hard not to listen to them. But making your actions follow those emotions, since they are whipping around so wildly now, make you appear unpredictable and unstable. He doesn't know how you are going to react from one minute to the next.

Plan A and plan B are just that - plans. They are designed to give you a roadmap to follow to get you off that emotional roller coaster.

When my XH first walked out, I knew, based on what I knew of him and what I'd read of affairs, that he would try to bounce back and forth for a while. I realized that he would eventually want to come home, but that just letting him walk back in, without any boundaries in place, would be a mistake. So I made a plan. When he called wanting to come back, I told him I wanted to work on things, I wanted to save our marriage, but that he couldn't come home for a year. And during that year, he couldn't be living with or seeing OW anymore either.

You might say this was a mistake - it turned out he never quit living with her, and our marriage ended. But I say that it ended up saving me a whole lot of emotional ups and downs that would have ultimately ended in the same result. Why? Because if he were willing to really do the work that was necessary and make a go of things, he would have at least tried to respect those boundaries. I'm not saying he would not have slipped during that year, but I would have at least seen honest effort. The way he handled the situation told me everything I needed to know about his character and his committment to making our marriage work. He went to counseling with me, continued living with her, and lied to everyone about where he was living and what he was doing. He told me and our counselor he was living with a (male) friend. He swore he was not seeing her. I don't know what he told her, but from comments she made later, I know that she believed I was lying when I talked about him going to counseling with me during those months when he was living with her at the same time.

But more than anything else, I made that plan about him not coming home and not living with her either for at least a year to help remove me from the emotion of it all. I knew how good he was at manipulating me into doing what he wanted. I knew that when he called me crying, wanting to come home, if I didn't have a plan in place, and have planned out what I would say to him, I would give in in no time, and wouldn't put any boundaries in place. When he called, everything in me was saying "let him come home, it will be different this time." The only thing that stopped me from doing it was the fact that I had promised myself that no matter what he said, I would insist on that year. And that I had told several of my friends and family that were acting as my support through this that that was what I was going to do. I desperately wanted to let him come home. It hurt me so badly to hear him cry about how he missed me and wanted to come home. But the reason I had made that promise to myself was to protect me against emotional manipulation. I knew without a plan in place ahead of time, he could get me to agree to anything he wanted.

I know the situations aren't exactly the same. But you are allowing your emotions to change from minute to minute how you are handling things. Which makes you look kind of schizophrenic to him, and probably only reinforces the idea that the marriage needs to be over.

I know you sometimes get uptight when you don't get an answer right away on something. But honestly, at this point in the game, nothing should be so rushed that you HAVE to have and answer NOW. If a decision needs to be made that quickly, you are probably giving into emotions again.

I understand how much you hope to hold the marriage together. But if you do everything from that desparation, you are probably guaranteeing it won't work out.

Here's something else - I think I probably do agree with the friend's assessment of sending him letters...just not right now, and certainly not with the frame of mind you have been in and with the tone you have given them.

The first thing you need to do is calm down. Be stable. Flying from one extreme to the other will only push him further away.

Once you are to that point, you have to work on yourself, and be prepared to move on. That's why everyone is saying to protect yourself. Look at it this way - he has told you repeatedly that he is done. It has nothing to do with how you feel, and even if you still love him more than anything, he says he is done. By continually saying to him that you don't think your marriage is over and that it can be saved, you are telling him that he is wrong. Every time you say "but I really love you," he is hearing that what he feels and wants is not important to you, and that you aren't hearing him when he says he wants a divorce. Not taking him at his word, and trying to save the marriage when he says he doesn't want it - big lovebuster.

So before you can continue telling him how you feel, you need to show you respect how he feels. And that means not only in what you say, but what you do. That means going forward with divorce plans, and protecting yourself. Say flat out that you don't want a divorce, and you think things could be saved, but if he believes that a divorce is necessary, you can't stop him. And let it be at that. Don't keep telling him over and over - that shows to him that you HAVEN'T changed, you are still being clingy and needy and not respecting his opinions.

We've said it over and over - the basic premise behind all of this is to work on you, not on him. By working on you, you present a more attractive spouse that has a much better chance of attracting him again. And if it doesn't attract him again, it at least puts you in a position where you are prepared to survive without him.

He doesn't need you to keep telling him how much you love him and that you think the marriage can be saved. You told him already. He knows it. You repeating it just makes him feel as if a cage is closing around him, and he needs to run to try and escape it.

After saying all this, I realize I could say it all a lot more succinctly:

Have a plan. Stick to the plan. Work on you. And don't smother him.