Oxsgirls post was dead on ..read it again...


part of plan A is the creation of a safe environment for WS to open up to the BS...opening up on the good, the bad, and the ugly...

it's not a very comfortable or fair position for the BS but it is part of the nature of the beast....

most if not all of plan a is done on the peripheral of the WS...

you plant seeds of interest
you plant seeds of future things....

ARK

Thank you Sleepless and Ark. I got Sleepless' reply about getting away from the chaos I am in after I posted my last one asking about the plan. Hmmm.

I know I am not ready, and am not worry about me getting into any serious relationships right now. I just like to "imagine" things to get me going... For example, a couple of women I know who have been divorced are now both in "love" with new partners. It is just good to see them being so happy again, which gives me hope - that no matter what, I can be happy again.

...and, I will try my bset to avoid any relationship talk from now on (no relationship talk for a week now!), and remain friendly towards H whenever we have any interaction. I asked H to call DS2 last night, which he did, but unfortunately DS2 refused to come inside the house (I was watering the plants and DS2 started to play with the water) and we missed the call. I felt pretty bad, as I am the one who asked H to call and he did. So I am going to email him to apologize.

And ARK, thanks for your comment. I know, OXSgirl has made so many insightful points and suggestions. Like she (repeatedly) said, I need to calm down and focus. And I have to stick to the plan.

Now here is then a practical question. Before people were suggesting Plan B, and also I should get the lawyer to file for separation or divorce to protect myself. Now I am trying to do Plan A with a 180, how should I approach the legal issues? I did identify the lawyer I want to hire and have met twice already - all I need to do is to call him up and sign on the contract. H does not know.

Last Monday (the last time I brought up our relationship - ouch) when we talked, H said he would hire a mediator so that we could agree on terms and save on legal costs. So far I haven't heard anything back from H nor his lawyer nor the mediator. I think it is primarily costs that are scaring H, but H may be a bit (just a tiny bit) scared of going forward with D as well. Or his counselor might be suggesting H to take it slow. I don't know. But it has been almost 9 months since the whole thing happened and since H started seriously talking about D yet in reality nothing - other than H's moving out 3 and a half months ago - has really happened. At the same time H has repeatedly told me that he is moving on with his life and the only thing that makes him emotional about this is DS2 but he is SURE that he does not want to stay married.

So my plan is to be pleasant, warm, strong, independent, yet open for reconciliation. Then what should I do about the legal issues? Another tricy thing is that if I file for something, it is most likely divorce, not legal separation. Even though it is technically possible, it is almost NEVER used in Illinois. Many lawyers do not even take me as their client if I want a legal separation. The lawyer I identified said he would do it for me if that is what I want, but also said that it really does not make much sense. So it is a big dilenma.

Plan A with a 180 with a divorce filing pending????? Does it sound like a plan??

bumping

milk

do you NEED to file anything at this time?

IF YES...why?

Yes and no. As of now, I do not really need to file anything. However, IF H end up meeting someone, it will change everything - the environment he is in, his mood, motivation, or he would even get his new lover's input! And naturally he would listen to her! So since right now I am paying for the house and H is saying that he would give the house to me (also because I made the down payment of the house), I DO want to secure that. Once he gets a girlfriend, she may tell him "are you stupid? Get half of the asset!".

So I do want to protect myself from that scenario.

milk again we are in a similar situation

if i go ahead and sign this agreement-it is only becuse i would get to buy him out of the house for a low amount

if i choose not to sign and wait-we sell the house and split it 50/50

so...that is wy i said i'donly consider the separation agreement-becauses i keep the time but also keep the house

no way i'd file for divprce right now-not even to keep the house

i still have hope no matter how small the chance is

I hope people can give me advice on this one. H's birthdy is this coming Sunday. I know one of the 180 items is "no gift", but does this apply to his birthday as well?

Yes!!!! And if he acts surprised or hurt, you respond by telling him that you were trying to do what he has asked, which is move on, not show affection, etc.

I would say you should have at least a card and maybe some sort of small gift from DS - but make sure it's a gift that would be appropriate coming from DS and doesn't appear as a way for you to still give him a gift. As far as for anything from you - at most, I would do a card. And if you do, make sure it is just a very generic "happy birthday" card - not "to my husband" (even though he still is), not anything mushy or romantic, not anything implying love in any way. And if you do give him a card, just sign your name, don't write a little "encouraging" note in it or anything. Treat it like it is the birthday of some very casual male friend that you don't want to give the idea you're interested. And as I said before, if he shows surprise or hurt, just indicate that you are trying to handle things the way you thought he wanted you to.

As far as the divorce - it's a tough call, though I do think you can pursue the divorce agreement and paperwork without it putting a damper on Plan A. You simply tell him that you are, again, following his wishes, and since he has made it clear that he wishes to be divorced, you feel it's necessary to get these things settled. That you feel under the circumstances that it's best to get the agreement figured out, because you realize this means you will have to take care of yourself, and protect yourself. That you had always counted on him to do those things, but that in a divorce, that ends, and you need to be prepared for that.

Only you can know if this would be an LB or not, and how much you stand to lose (or are willing to lose) if you don't protect yourself this way.

Thanks OSXgirl. The reason I am asking about H's birthday is that in the past, even though I always gave him gifts, he claimed I never gave him anything while he was giving me a lot of presents.

Basically whatever I gave to him (clothes, wallets, etc., basically what we women naturally choose) were "thoughtless" and because I did not give him what he wanted (like video games but I did not want to encourage him to spend even more time in front of the computer!) while he gave me what I liked (jewelries, purses), in H's mind I never really gave him any presents. Because of this perception, if I do not give any presents at all, it will only confirm his point, that is my fear.

I wanted to give H something for Christmas last year, but my best friend suggested that I should not and I did not give anything. I felt bad afterward. Although H did not give me anything either. For Father's day, I ordered a mug cup with DS2's picture on and gave that to him. H was very happy with the present.

So I think I will do something like that again - something small from DS2. I don't think H will act surprised if he does not get anything from me anyway, for the reason I mentioned above.

As for the legal protection, this is another thing. Everytime it becomes financial issues H gets really upset so if I file for anything to protect me financially, I KNOW that would be a major LB. But then again, how much am I willing to lose? Losing something for H is one thing, if I have to lose something for H's future girlfriend.... there is NO WAY! I really don't want H to start any D proceedings, but at the same time for this particular issue, in a strange way I wish H has done something so that I do not have to feel guilty filing anything to protect me.

...then again, the fact I have been wating for H this long (by the end of this month, it will be 9 months since he told me he wanted out of this relationship and 4 months since he moved out) might curb H's potential anger and he might understand that I need to do this.

I cannot deny that I have this hope that filing for D may shake something up... I know it is a wrong motivation and I do not want to get disappointed if I do not get any reaction from H, but that is the truth....

I am upset right now by just thinking about a lot of things H has put me through and how he is enjoying his "easy" lifestyle right now at my expense.

I think I am going to retain the lawyer!

Hmmm.... now that you've told us how things have gone in the past with presents, I'm actually having some second thoughts. I was advising that on the basis that you should be showing him what he will be missing, i.e., thoughtful presents from you. But if that's the way he's always felt about it, this could be a chance for you to score a few points without doing any pushing of the relationship.

First, let's address the gift issue - this is essentially an area where he has told you in the past that you weren't (literally!) giving him what he wanted, but you overruled his judgement, and gave him what you thought he needed. So, this is an area you should see as not fulfilling his needs. I understand not wanting him to spend even more time in front of the computer, believe me I do, I've been there. But surely that isn't the only thing you could have gotten him. I would guess the issue wasn't as much that you didn't give him video games as it was that you didn't give him anything "fun." You saw the gift giving at birthdays and holidays as a way to give him something he needed. He probably saw those as things he could have bought himself, and wheres the excitement in opening a package of socks or a new wallet or some clothes.

A good example - my XH didn't get excited if I bought him a regular shirt. But if it was a jersey with his favorite football team on it, or a t-shirt with something on it he particularly liked, that was a different matter. For you, new clothes might be a treat - to him, it's something his mom would have gotten him that he would have gotten even if it wasn't his birthday, because he needed it, not because he wanted it.

So, back to the issue of this particular birthday... what might be effective is if you do buy him a present, with a couple of conditions:

1. It can't be too expensive. If you do buy a present, it should be something casual, something where you can say "Well, it isn't much, but I thought you might enjoy it, so I got it for you. It is your birthday after all."

2. It has to be something he would consider "fun". Put some thought into it. Is there a singer or group he likes, but he doesn't have one of their albums? Help fill out his collection. Has he mentioned wanting to take DS fishing? You could do a father/son fishing setup, with a not-too-expensive rod for him, and a toy rod for him to give DS. The key here is that it has to be something you know he enjoys, and it has to be something HE considers fun. Are there any books you could get he would enjoy - say on a hobby, or an author he likes....Dilbert cartoons, recipe books, anything like that that he enjoys. If he's into video games and computers, a gift certificate from Best Buy is like giving a kid a pass to the candy store!

3. Whatever it is, it cannot have any romantic connotations whatsoever.

If you were in plan B, I would say absolutely not. And I guess in a strict 180 you would not either. But as this is an area where he has indicated before you didn't meet his needs, AND it's something that, if you're careful, you CAN meet the need without pushing the relationship aspect. You still make sure the card is very neutral, you don't say I love you, you just say, here, it isn't much, but I thought you might like it, and I thought maybe you could use a little something fun.

Remember with this though - this is just my outsider opinion here, based on what you've said. Maybe other minds will think differently on this.

And MOST importantly - if you do decide to do this, and you get a reaction, DON'T start reading all kinds of stuff into it. It's only one little blip. You're going to need a lot of those little blips before you can really even think about maybe trying for recovery. If it does please him and he shows it, just say you're glad he liked it, and then go on with the 180 like nothing happened. If you start getting all friendly and overanxious with him, he will see the gift as nothing more than an attempt to manipulate him, will figure that it isn't a real change, and will be wary of anything nice you try to do.

Even if you are very casual about it, and don't make a big deal, he'll probably view it with some suspicion. And the first sign that you get excited about him enjoying it, it will confirm that suspicion.

Does all of that make sense?

i think oxgirl has a great idea. give him something he WANTS show him that you are considerate and that you are willing to meet his needs.

if it were me, i'd even consider a video game for the computer

but...what do i know...my husband aint even talking to me!

Thank you for your GREAT insight (AGAIN!) and ideas OSXgirl, and thank you, as always, for your support EAV!

I am glad I shared what H felt about me in the area of gifts with you. Because like I said I did not give anything to H last Christmas (this was the FIRST time I did not get anything for him, but in his mind, it was probably like 'see, again, she NEVER gives me anything...') and I felt very bad.

And you are right, the reason H felt my gifts meant nothing is EXACTLY because of the points you made. I rarely (I would not say never, because I DID sometimes in the past but not often) gave H the fun stuff. I thought nice looking sweater, nice leather bag, travel set, etc. were nice gifts but he was looking for more 'fun' stuff.

I REALLY liked your idea of father-son fishing rod set. I LOVE it! H likes fishing and kept saying that he wants to take DS2 to fishing. Also he has a lot of artists he likes, but he owns so many CDs and I am not sure which one is the one he already has so I will probably stick to the fishing set. Oh, I am actually excited about this myself! If I can find such rod set, I KNOW H would love it! Of course that does not mean he will re-evaluate my ability to get him a fun gift, but at least I may be able to score something.

Oh I really hope I can find it. I am going to start the search online tonight after DS2 goes to bed. Actually last year for his birthday, I DID get him a gift certificate from BestBuy but by then (even though I did not know) he was too depressed and into his thought of "getting away from me" that he totally forgot about it and never used it (H left it here). It was here for nearly a year and my old PDA broke down so I used it to purchase a new one a couple of months ago...okay, I feel very bad again. But I needed it fairly quickly for my job and did not waste the card...I'm sorry H!

Okay, I have something to do then tonight. Again, thank you for your ideas!!!

Just remember - don't spend too much on it...if you do, he'll know, trust me. And then he is liable to see it as you trying to "buy" back his love. In this case, it really is the thought that counts.

If you do find a father-son fishing kit or make one, I would make that a present from both you and DS.

Definitely do NOT act excited like this in front of him - any positive the present might give you will likely be negated if you do.

And try not to get your own hopes up too much here. You may not get a reaction at all - even if this is a positive to him, he may not show it. And this is just one small thing, it won't be fixed by just this. If you don't keep your hope in check on this, you're going to be crashing into big-time depression after Sunday, because no reaction from him could possibly build up to what you can envision because of your hope.

Yeah, I may not get any reaction at all - and you know too well that how much that would hurt and depress me...!!! Reality sucks.

reactions from my husband since he left

a model car that he has wanted since we started dating- "I can't believe you found this! It will be the best car in my collection."

a dvd of his favorite comedy-i left it on the table, i wasn't here when he came. he took it-no thank you or anything

a hat from his favorite football team-"this is great. Thanks."

two of his favorite trees in nice pots for his new place-"why did you buy me these?" "they are a housewarming gift" "how much do i owe you?"

a red model car for valentine's day (bad choice, i realize now)-"I feel bad because i didn't get you anything and i feel even worse because i didn't want to get you anything."

so...anything could happen milk but i hope all goes well for you

We're just different. But some men are simply traumatized by certain events from their past that they have never overcome as adults that can negatively affect men or women.



This sounds familiar. My wife is simply gorgeous, but early on in our marriage, she used to tell me, your going to have an affair one day... all men do. Her dad cheated on her mom and then married the woman. Still married to the OM with two spoiled kids. Her mom cheated on her dad while they were having trouble, leaving the three girls to watch the "show". Not much fun. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The common theme here is the resistance to attach to someone for fear of rejection. My WW wrote beautiful things about me in her diary while she was pregnant with DS8. But I think once the hormones wear off, she's so afraid of rejection or abandonment, she shields herself.

With your husband, he may have built the same walls to protect himself from the inevitable (you fooling around).

It sounds like you do garner a lot of attention from the men in your office. Platonic or not, you need to compensate for that with him. Give him extra attention if you get the opportunity. Let him know in front of these high powered guys how important he is to you.

That doesn't mean he doesn't have some self esteem issues to work on, but there are obviously reasons why you fell in love with him.


The pictures are great. No poem. Keep it clinical. Talk about how much fun the two of you had. "Hope you're doing well." That's all.

Umm. He left. Nice thought, but it's his fault. He's the adult.



If you're in Plan A, the divorce paperwork might be a big love buster. If you think he's going after you, custody and money, then file the paperwork for custody. You could file a temporary custody plan with the court, without filing for divorce I think. If you want to simply file a separation, do that. It just separates assets and draws some lines without heading for divorce. It's kind of the wait and see approach.

The fact that WH is in counseling is a positive thing. Can you talk to the counselor for guidance. It could be that he has a better perspective.

Lawyers are different. If he doesn't want the separation paperwork for legal reasons in Illinois, PREPARE the divorce paperwork with a custody plan, and HOLD IT. Have it ready for filing. I kind of did that plan, but my lawyer went out of town when WW abducted DS8, so it didn't really work that well.

So, here's my plan.

1. Plan A, 180 degree. Review the rules regularly.. it helps.
2. If you need male comfort, use the guys here... talk about safe! You'll never see us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
3. Prepare divorce paperwork and have it ready if required. Filing now and doing Plan A is kind of counterproductive. If WS is emotionally distraught, you don't want DS2 around him anyway.
4. If you can get permission from your WH to speak to his counselor for guidance, it would certainly help.

God Bless.

Sleepless.

Just because you don't SEE the reaction doesn't mean it's not there... and reality can be beautiful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (camera pans to DSalmost 2)