I can help with this one. While counseling with Steve Harley, WW and I were in the early stages, and I was somewhere between Plan A and 180. Steve said he doesn't like special occasions, anniversaries, birthdays, Christmas, to go by without a gift. Something small, but a rememberance. It was our 10th wedding anniversary. I had planned something bigger, but instead went to Tiffany's and got her a sterling silver purse mirror to remind her of how beautiful I thought she was on the inside every time she looked at it. I had a tradition of shopping at Tiffany's for her, but for the 10th, I had planned on something with a diamond. Get him a card and a favorite something, and tell him Happy Birthday. It might make him mad, and it will DEFINITELY make him fell guilty. You're holding up your end of the relationship, that's what it's about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Think outside the box. Get him something different... a Chia pet. Something he doesn't expect for him or from you. Not too romantic! Be Whimsical. He's a geek. Get him a robot that vacuums the floor. It's not a video game, but it's practical! A happy medium? Something from DS is a DEFINITE must.

Stall the divorce paperwork if you can. Remember that the lawyer's TYPICALLY don't have your marriage's best interest in mind. They have THEIR best financial interest in mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Sleepless. I am trying to find the fishing rod set OSXgirl suggested (I really like the idea) but so far haven't been able to.

I think you have a point about someone detaching him/herself in attempt to prevent from getting hurt. There are a lot of other issues in our M I think, but that is probably one of them. H was always worried that I would divorce him when we are older like in our 50s or 60s. Also he said b/c his biological mom died, he is simply afraid of someone he loves ends up leaving him. And I was not showing enough affection. And H was being stressed out and screaming for help inside but I had no clue and was talking about trying for the second child. In H's mind I was very selfish and did not care about H's wellbeing. "See, she will just get whatever she wants and is just using me for it...," maybe that is how H might have felt.

Now H says he does not feel any connection with me. He says he does not have 'fun' with me. Once that kind of perception is established, it is very hard to break it through....

Anyway for now I keep searching for a nice but casual and fun gift for H's birthday.

I went out to get the fishing set this evening. Nothing expensive, but just something. I also picked up a card - a very neutral one.

Now, since H agreed to call DS2 on Mondays and Wednesdays at around 7PM, and since we missed it on Monday, this time I made sure to be home at 7PM. No phone calls. That really makes me mad. Thank God I did not tell DS2 that his dad is calling! But this is not for me, this is for his own son, and how can he forget it? Or is he out with a girl or something? Still which is more important?? H is the one who keeps saying that he misses DS2 so much and wants a 50/50 physical custody! Yeah, right!

Why does he have such a hard time keeping his promises? He'd better call before 7:30pm! I just got him a present and was pretty excited about it..., then this!

Whoa! Down killer. Let's not flame on WH just yet. It upsets the Plan A! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Your husband is not emotionally stable enough to be making ratioinal decisions. There is too much else in the way. It's not your responsibility to heal his inner child. He needs to recognize the problem and address it. Just because his mom died when he was young doesn't mean you will leave him. Last year when my wife's grandfather died, she came to me crying and promised she would take care of me when we were old. Whooo. That changed in a hurry didn't it? There are opportunities out there for your husband to recover. He's in counseling. He may be depressed too. (How old is he?) Life may just have been building up on his shoulders. You wanted a second child just like a normal family progression, he couldn't understand why you loved him and simply withdrew. Your husband and my wife have some healing to do before their relationships will improve. They get more out of fantasies than reality because the fantasy won't hurt them. I think my WW's affair may have ended because she freaked out the 19 year old boy. Reading her letters kind of freaked me out too, that's why I was able to get so strong I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Of course abducting our son to France kind of pissed me off too.

Thanks Sleepless. I managed to control my anger and diappointment last night and took DS2 to bed - then at around 9PM, the phone rang. It was H. Why so late? H knows that I try to (even though often DS2 is still up, but still) put DS2 to bed by 8-8:30pm and by calling him at that time he could have waken his son up.

DS2 answered the phone and talked a bit and then he gave the phone to me. I don't think H asked for me, so I think it was just DS2 who wanted to hand me the phone. I asked (but not in an angry voice)
"were you busy?"
"why?"
"because you were supposed to call earlier"
"I was jogging and it was just the timing thing"
"oh"
then I left it that, even though I had much more I wanted to say.
Then H said
"you know, I want to see DS2 b/c I am going to CA, not this weekend but the weekend after and won't be able to see him"
"okay"
That is when (thankfully, b/c I was not ready to talk about rescheduleing H's visitation) DS2 took the phone from me and started to talk to his father again. Then DS2 gave me back the phone (this is a remarkable change, fortunately or unfortunately - b/c at the beginning after H left, even a simple phone call used to upset DS2 so much and he cried for his father for hours. Now he just tells him 'bye' and goes back to whatever he was doing before the phone call). H did not know, and kept telling "oh I love you and miss you so much and cannot wait to see you soon..", etc. It kind of made me sick b/c it sounded so fake. Sure you love your son so much that you want to leave him! You don't care if you cannot see him everyday! Your being able to pursue other girls or being able to watch TV whenever you want is more important than spending time with and being responsible around DS2. Sure you love him very much.

After a while H noticed there was no reponse so "...hello?" then I pretended that I just got the phone from DS2 and said "..., well okay, bye." H sais bye, and we hung up.

I feel maybe there was a better way to handle this call? I was not unpleasant, but not all that friendly either. I think it is b/c everytime I have a moment to speak to him or see him in person, I feel this great distance and no matter what, H's mind is set and he just does not want to get back to our relationship. I feel stupid and powerless and tired of fighting this uphill battle.

Now that H's birthday is this weekend and also b/c he won't see his son next weekend, maybe I should let him see DS2 on Sunday. That way we can give him the gift as well. What do you think? How should I be behaving that time? Pleasant but not clingy right? That is actually pretty tough thing to do!

Also, my therapist yesterday said that I need to tell H that DS2 is in counseling. Should I bring that up when I speak to H (whether through phone or email) today or tomorrow to arrange the visit on Sunday? She said that I need to tell H to call DS2 on a regular basis and he has to be consistent. When is the good time for me to tell him this (b/c if I tell him today, it may sound like I am blaming him for being late last night, doesn't it?) and how should I approach this in a firm but non-confrontational way? I fear that if I do that when I give him a present, that may spoil the whole excitement. Then again if I do that BEFORE Sunday, H may think I am only giving him the gift to make up for my blaming/demand to H.

See, just to do a simple thing I have to think this much. It's not fun and not fair....!!! I am tired of this!!!

I think I will email H to let him know about DS2's counseling sessions and what his therapist suggested (to call him on time on a regular basis). Then also let him know that he could spend a day with DS2 on Sunday since it is his birthday and also b/c he won't be able to see his son next weekend (he will be in CA, I still do not know if this is strictly business or not - H seems quite excited. Beside why during the weekend??).

Do you think that if he wants to have DS2 around on Sunday (I am not sure I haven't asked him about it yet, but H just said last night that he would like to see DS2 before going to CA next weekend), which is his birthday, that it is unlikely that he has a girlfriend? Wouldn't you think that they would spend the night together on a special occasion? Although they could be doing that on Saturday night.

I hope people can give me advice on this one. H's birthdy is this coming Sunday. I know one of the 180 items is "no gift", but does this apply to his birthday as well?
Not giving gifts is NOT (necessarily) part of the 180.

Everyone confuses what a 180 is. Doing the famous "list" that is floating around here is not exactly what a 180 is. These are suggestions of things to consider.

"If you are doing something and getting a negative (or no) response, do the opposite.
If you are doing something and getting a positive response, continue to do it." Michele Weiner-Davis

If you are giving gifts and he does not like it, then stop. If you are giving gifts and he says, "thank you" then continue to do it.If you are saying, "I love you" and he says it back or hugs you, continue to say it.

Wow, that simple, huh? Thanks Chris. But if H likes to see me moving on with my life without H but letting him see our son on a regular basis, should I continue to do so? Isn't that in another words "going straight to D"?

Anyway, so emailing him today to let him know that he can spend the day on Sunday is a good thing, right?

How about inviting H over a dinner on Saturday or Sunday evening for his birthday? I don't think he would accept that anyway (and in that case of course I won't insist) but should I offer? That way we can spend the evening (if he accepts) as a family? Or is that too much pushing? What if I give him a choice:

"H, would you like to come over for a dinner on Saturday night and spend time with DS2 at home, or would you like to spend the day with DS2 alone on Sunday?"

Does this sound too much like I am trying to bait him?

bump

But if H likes to see me moving on with my life without H
Moving on does not mean you are simply getting himn out of your life.
You are still married and you still act like it (no dating and such).
You still continue on with things you need to. But don't even give him the hint that you want him gone or you are dating.

but letting him see our son on a regular basis, should I continue to do so?
Yes, he should see your son whenever.

Isn't that in another words "going straight to D"?
Unless you want a divorce, don't bring it up, don't continue a discussion about it if he brings it up. Let him know it is not what you want.

Anyway, so emailing him today to let him know that he can spend the day on Sunday is a good thing, right?
Yes.

Thanks Chris, what about inviting him over dinner or something? I think H would not like that, and reading EAV's thread (we are in a similar situation), maybe I shouldn't even bother asking him? What do you think?

The dinner I meant is for H's birthday - I am wondering if I should offer him a choice between a family dinner (although I do not expect him to take it) or spending the time alone with DS2 on Sunday. It's in my previous thread, but this is what I was thinking.

"Would you like to come over for a dinner so that you can spend time with DS2 at home, or would you like to spend time alone with DS2 on Sunday?"

Also..., Chris you seem to object the idea of trying to make H jealous by implying I am dating (I am not!)...?

When H was still living with us, I went out looking for an apartment b/c it really looked like it was a matter of time that we were filing for divorce, and that time H looked at the car I drove and said "you cleaned up the passenger seat - was there anyone sitting there? A guy?" Also when I went out with my girlfriends he asked me "who are you going out with? Well no, it doesn't matter, you do whatever you need to do". So I want to believe that the idea of me being with someone else bothers him a bit.

Then again, maybe H acted as if he was jealous b/c he needed to stay home with me while he was unemployed. H used me and admited that later on. Soon as he got an offer, he went out there to look for a job. So maybe it was all his acting. I really don't know.

When I went to WI with DS2 and my friends, H did ask me who I was going with. Also he asked me if I am going to church with my girlfriend. Again, maybe none of this really mean much, maybe he asked them b/c there was nothing else for him to ask.

So....., should I not upset him by inviting him for dinner?

... I guess if I don't invite H, but offer him to spend time with DS2, I am giving everything H wants so maybe I should stick to that plan, huh? I just can't imagine H being happy if I invite him for dinner.

When you don't want to spend money on divorce but really want to divorce, what would you do? Come up with terms and try to agree, right? H told me what he wants by email, but nothing is really progressing. I know it is not my job to overanalyze his psycology, but do you think there is even a tiny bit of hesitence on his part that might be slowing down the whole process? But then why does he keep saying "I want to move on and you just have to accept that", "you need to move on as well, stop hanging in there - you are only hurting yourself and DS2", "divorce is the only way out", etc.?

Anyway, if anyone thinks it IS a good idea to invite him for dinner, please let me know.... otherwise I think I will just tell him that he can spend Sunday with DS2.... Hope he will like that....

... okay I sent the email simply asking if H would like to spend the day with DS2 on Sunday....

Hello, I think you should NOT invite him to dinner b/c he is going to know that you still want him, that he can have his cake and eat it too. I am kinda of in the same situation, this sounds very much like everything my H has told me and I was told to use reverse psycology on him, make him think that you have moved on, and you are getting on with your life, let him realize how much he misses you, set him free and if he truly is yours he will be back. Like I said I am following the same advise, it is really hard but I am taking it day by day except my H has not even seen our children in over 3 weeks but everyone tells me that see him that he is not doing well he seems very depressed so hopefully that is a sign that he is coming around and if not then at least I can finally move on with my life. He has not yet filed for a divorce either b/c if he does he will lose everything and I know deep down he will soon realize that she is not worth it.

Thanks Iashell. Doesn't your H miss your children?

I am not sure if H is depressed - well, he is taking ADs, but he started taking them back in Oct 2004 or something, before the whole thing happened on Nov 29. And in my mind, his personality has changed since he started taking them, but who knows - he says he is thinking A LOT more clearly ever since he is on the medication. But his family also feels the same as I do.

H has lost a lot of weight since he moved out I noticed. He does not look very happy and my friends who saw him said the same thing, although H claims he is happy many times now. H said "I feel happy many times, the happiness I haven't felt in a long time" Also he is now jogging on a regular basis. So maybe H IS happier now. Although I just can't imagine how he can be so happy without much contact with his own son and own family (not me but his parents, brother and sisters).

Anyway I did not invite him so will see how he would respond to my email about this Sunday. If he declined even though he said he would like to spend time with DS2, maybe I should suspect that he might have a date...??

Whoever that might be, she is sooooooo new and I am sure H does not know her much at all! And she is not the mother of his dear son!!! At least for now, H can't even take her with him to see his family. We are not even divorced and his family will not welcome them! Why is this a happy situation for H? I don't get it!

...so Iashell, are you waiting for your H to file for a divorce or are you going to take the first step?

I'm sure he misses the children but I think it is guilt that keeps him away from them, he won't talk to me either he said that it is too hard(you can read my post in the just found out forum for the story). I told my H's family everything but he doesn't know that they know. They tell me not to give up on him. He cannot take her to his family either b/c they would not welcome her. He hasn't even admitted it to me yet. I don't understand why he keeps denying it. I told my H that if he wanted a divorce that he would have to file for it but I will give him some time to come to himself before I eventually go file because I am starting to feel as if I don't want to save our marriage. I have nothing to lose but he has everything to lose.