Thank you Orchid. I know, it really upsets me to see how H sees or tries to see that "as long as I am talking to my son and telling him I love him, I am being responsible". Even the support check he writes, every time (this REALLY pisses me off) he writes "for DS2" on the note section. Is this necessary?? When his brother told him that he is being irresponsible, H always said to him "no, I want to be responsible for DS2". Clearly, he wants to cut DS2 off to treat it as a separate issue, not as a whole package like you said.

How do I deal with my anger and disappointment? What if I swing by his apartment today to drop off his birthday gift? I am sure he won't be there, and when he returns, my hope is that he would feel guilty that we went all the way there to drop off his gift and card saying DS2 loves his father, while H is busy entertaining himself - only himself. Or he may not feel bad at all.

Or we can try to call him - first at his work to see if he is at work (I highly doubt it). If we call his cell or his apt., he would most likely screen it and not answer. Especially if he is WITH someone.

Am I just driving myself crazy? People here talk about exposure, but in my situation where H is long gone and he clearly said that one of the reasons he wanted to move out was so that he could meet other women, I am not very sure if exposure would do any good to anyone. But then again, something is up but H is hiding it so maybe he does have some sense of guilt.

I am lost. I don't know what I should be doing. What do I want? What I want is a HEALTHY and RESPECTFUL and NO-MORE LIES and WARM and HAPPY marriage and family. Of course I want that with H, but hoping for it now makes me feel very empty b/c I feel like I am just fooling myself. That would never happen. And I feel I am wasting too much energy and time on something that just won't happen.

Should I call him or drive by or not do anything?

okay milk here's my thoughts
(i hope wiser ones here will tell you if they agree)

you still love your husband and want him back so this is what is see as the plan you should have:

(But wait, can you file for divorce AND DivorceBust at the same time??? )

1. no i don't think you can! but you CAN divorce bust with a separation agreement. it serves the purpose of protecting you financially but not ending your marraige. it buys you time. if you can't do this....i wouldn't do anything yet. he's not mis using your funds so far. got separate checking and savings and cancel joint credit cards if you haven't already and then just wait awhile while you do the following things

2. you NEED to know if he is having an affair. This is why they sayy all the things he's said. This is why they leave.

my husband said "i'm going to find someone i'm compatable with so that i can start over" before he left-he WAS ALREADY WITH THAT PERSON

do the work you need to find out if he is seeing someone and who she is. Tou NEED to know all you can find out about her so you know who to expose to. she may be married or work with him and then EXPOSURE could end the affair.

milk...i'm learning that all the things our husbands are saying to us...although we think they are different than everyone else here....ARE the SAME THINGS they all say

we just aren't getting it!!

we are taking what they say to heart and everyone-even the former walk away spouses are telling us that they are in a fog-they rewrite history-they sai they don't love you-they say they are DONE and want a DIVORCE!! My husband is now saying "It's not about the other person. she has nothing to do with what i want or how i feel about you." that's what they ALL SAY!

while you are doing this-finding out all about her (if as we suspect she does exsist) you should keep using PLAN A and 180's and NO relationship talk-this is the mistake i keep making!!!

milk the bottem line is this

you and i are REACTING to everything our husband's say and do instead of ACTING upon the advice we are getting about how to save our marriage.

ACT milk-call a private investigator,call his friends or family and co-workers and find out if anyone knows anything. start sitting outside of his apt or work place and watch.

i have made more progress since i discovered the truth thatn during the entire 14 months that i spent using plan A and 180's. without EXPOSURE it's spinning your wheels in the mud-you keep trying but don't go anywhere cause somethings keeping you from moving foreward

okay milk-what do you think?

Exposure will help you more than you realize. Read up on the Harley concepts along with reading Surviving an Affair. His needs/Her needs is also good so you have better communication tools when you do deal with the WS.

As for him trying to alientate you....get it? That's the WS in him. You want to reach your H who right now is being held captive by the WS and mothership.

Be patient. This kind of thing takes time. You have that time. Work on you. Make your personal improvements. Secure your finances. Be a good mom. Check out the D options along with child/spousal support (don't let a WS become negligent in this area - you have the law on your side on this matter). Let him worry about his visitation rights. Pray for a clear mind and calm heart. Identify your perosnal boundaries (read the book Boundaries - author unknown). Once the above is done and the WS is still around, look into implementing plan B.

Hope this helps.
L.

Thanks Eav. The fact is, his family does not know about anything. I spoke to his sister and it sounds like at least H used to contact one of his sisters on a regular basis and she did not think H was seeing anyone seriously (H did have some casual dates since he left) until recently. But over the past 2 weeks or so (that makes sense in a way - when H got sick, I smelled his lies - maybe that is when something began) she can't even get a hold of him. Obviouslly H is not comfortable sharing his latest adventure with anyone other than, my guess is those H meets at SA group counseling or H's college friend. H's college friend does not answer my calls nor return my calls. That makes me mad too - apparently he said to H "both you and MILK are my friends and I want to help both of you". Sure, now it seems that H is really gone, his friend completely ignores me.

I am just very tired and sad and angry and don't have the energy to do anything right now.

Thanks Orchid. We cross posted. I am going to wrap the gift and may drive by tonight, since now H is probably not home anyway. I am debating whether I should try calling his work. I am almost certain he won't answer b/c he is not there.

I called his work and OF COURSE he did not answer. I tried his cell and he did not answer either. I just simply said "I got your message last night and I called your work since you said you would be in the office. Give me a call on my cell"

Hopefully at least H feels that he cannot just lie and I would believe him.

Okay, I am going out now. Tonight DS2 and I are going to my inlaws - we have been spending whole a lot more with them than their own son!! Anyway, after that, I may drive by H's apartment. The only concern is that DS2 recognizes the area (actually when I still did not know exactly where H lived even though I had his address, when we were driving by DS2 pointed ou "this is Papa's house" and that is how I learned H was living in one of those buildings) and he may get upset not being able to see his father. Also I want to drop off the present but without the key I don't know how - maybe I just have to keep it here. Don't know. What do you think?

i wouldn't drop it off...it's like you and melody said...let him come to you

but i still think you need to be finding out if there is a woman and who she is....that is your next step

are you sure it's not that student?

No EAV, even if H is in love with someone (unless it is still his one-way love), it is not with the student. She lives in the city and I think she gave her car to her brother so she can't even come to suburbs where H lives. Also she is a very serious Christian and will not have a relationship with a married man - well at least that is what I think. Also she knows H's brother and his sister-in-law so well (basically she is at their place every day) there is no way she would do that.

But anyway, this is what happened.

I went out in the afternoon with the guy who has kept calling. WAIT! Please don't say what you want to say. Because REALLY, very seriously, I have NO interest in him! He knows this so insisted that "this is not a date, I am moving to a new place and want to paint, so can you come help me pick the color for the new place?" And I told him that I have a dinner appointment with my inlaws beforehand so that he would not have any expectations. Well, this part did not go well, as he did not hear what I said about dinner and was planning on taking me and DS2 to a Japanese restaurant. But WAIT again, because we did not go, as I already had a plan.

Anyway, I got nothing to do this afternoon so we went to his house first to pick him up (he offered to come pick us up but I did not want him to know where we live so I said I would pick him up). I did not pay much attention when we met on the train, so I kind of forgot how he looked - my goodness, he looks pretty old! He showed me his place and furniture so that I would get some ideas as to what color would go well with - then he took us to his new place. He brought his digital camera so that he can take pix of the walls, countertops, etc., but he sneakly took some of my pictures and that actually bothered me. He took some pix of DS2 as well and I definitely did not feel very comfortable with that.

Then he wanted us to go to HomeDepot to pick up some paint, but by then it was getting late so I told him "you know that I am having dinner with my inlaws, right?". He said "really? No, I didn't know that - man, I wanted us to go to XXX tonight... that is when I realized that OKAY YOU SAID THIS IS NOT A DATE.... SURE! Anyway I dropped him off at his house and he asked me if I could meet him again tomorrow to continue on this project and I said I am going to church and am not sure if I am available. I told him I would let him know (I am not going!!!!!)

But okay, this is not the important part of my story tonight. I just mentioned because I actually realized how my H looks (and am sure for real) much younger than this guy and how much cuter H is!!! That made me want to get H back more..... Although I must say H looked much better before but in recent years (I guess his depression must have started a couple of years ago already) he did not look as good - he looks empty and just very very sad these days.

After that we went to my inlaws. Oh, on our way, I noticed there was a call from H on my cell. I called him back. H said "I was at work, when you called I must have been in a different office then". I was not sure if I believed that, but did not say anything. Then he said "and I came home and went out to jog and came home, took shower and was kind of tired so was taking a nap this afternoon. Tonight I am going to see my sister and her baby". H might be lying about his work, but at least it sounds like he is going to see his sister tonight and he cannot lie about that, b/c I can easily find out the truth by calling up her tomorrow. So was H telling the truth about him being busy with work? He is not going out tonight?? I was puzzeled. I asked H about his job in general and after that H asked me about DS2's counseling again. Then he asked me if his therapist is also a marriage counselor. I said "I don't know, she does children, individual, and family counseling. She is also specialized in substabce abuse cases" H asked again "but this is about DS2, right? It is not about divorce right?" when I said yes, he said "okay then I will call her next week".

At my inlaws, we had a very good dinner and very good time. When my FIL asked what I did today, I just briefly mentioned that there is a guy who has been calling me but I have no interest. He said "good, tell my son about him! That might make him jealous" I kind of laughed at his comment. I told him "dad (I call him dad), this is a strange conversation we are having - my father in law is encouraging me to date someone else other than his own son!" And he laughed too. I really love my FIL. This is another thing - I just feel so comfortable with my inlaws and it is so unfortunate if I have to lose them as my father and mother in law.

We left at about 10pm. DS2 fell asleep in the car. Then I decided to stop by H's apartment. Oh my God! When I pulled into the parking lot, I saw H just parked his car and was about to get out of the car!!! I was literally 3 feet away or something and could not just stop my car, so pretended to keep going. I really wanted to see if anyone else might come out of the car, but could not stay there to find out. Darn!

I drove around the whole complex again, and when I came back H's car was empty. I parked my car and went to see inside H's car. On the passenger seat, there were a plastic bag, a box of nicotine gum, and a drink bottle. It looked too messy to believe his date was in the car. But who knows.

Then I was going to his building and ring the bell, but I did not leave my son alone in the car, since I parked kind of far away from the building. So I went back to my car and called him. He did not answer but I know FOR SURE he is there, so I said "can you pick it up?". He did not, but then he called me back. I asked him "can you come down? I am in the parking lot and DS2 wanted to give you something, but he fell asleep. I don't want to leave him alone in the car".

After a while he came down. He had a drink from a fast food restaurant in his hand. My guess is that H just went out to get his dinner. We walked towards my car and I asked him if he went to see the baby. He said yes and said it is a very beautiful baby.

Soon as we got to my car, H went to see DS2 from outside but then opened the door and started kissing DS2's forehead. I could tell he really missed his son. H kissed him so much that DS2 woke up. I gave H the present and card, and he said thanks and gave me a kiss on the cheek. That was actually SAD. Sure he kissed me, but for heaven's sake, he is my HUSBAND!!! It was like those you give to your friends who are visiting you.

H got in the car in the back seat next to DS2. He read the card first and then opened the present. I asked DS2 to sing the birthday song for H, but he was too tired to do so. Although he giggled and that made H so happy. H said "thank you, that was a very nice surprise visit. Be careful driving home." Then he also asked me if I am maintaining my car since he used to do all that. I said no, I need to bring it in for oil change and he said besides the oil change I should ask them to check other things.

So I know he liked that we popped over. H appreciated that I brought DS2 so that he could see him. H liked the present also. There was no relationship talk so he liked that as well. Maybe a few points might have been deposited into his love bank, but again, I was sad (although I did not show it at all). The way he was talking to me about his job, the way he kissed me, the way he thanked me, the way he gave me a tip about the car maintenance, etc., everything was VERY emotionless. H did all that b/c that is what he should do not b/c that is what he wanted to do. H is really gone. That is how I felt tonight despite the fact he was HAPPY about our visit.

okay milk

1.i'm hapy that you got to see him-i know for you and i that's so important

2. he liked the present! good decision

3. it's 10:00 on a sat night and he's alone...that's good!

4. his dad may mention the guy who is interested in you...another good thing i think

5. he still wants to take care of you (the car) that's very good

and another tought...the kiss on the cheek...hey it's better thatn the hug with the pat on the back like you'd give your grandma that i got last week after driving 1 1/2 hours to sign the crummy truck title

all things considered ....it was a good day for you!

ps
i wouldn't judge you even if you were dating...that's a personal choice but i'd want you to at lest find someone cute and not so old looking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

but like you...i'm not interested in anyone cause i love my husband

Thanks Eav. I remember you mentioning your H's hug - well believe me, even though it was a kiss, my H's kiss was just like that! Remember, H is Italian, so kissing on the cheek means nothing more than a hug with a pat on the back!! H surely never kissed me like that when we did not have the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am supposed to be in church but DS2 wouldn't wakt up and I feel bad waking him up then dropping him off either at my friend's or at the childcare facility in the church. I am tempted to go to the church the family we met on Friday night all goes to.... It is quite far but that one does not start until 10:45am and we get to see them. I don't know.

Thanks for the encouragement EAV. I don't feel so optmistic b/c I really felt that his feelings for me are gone. And it is unfortunate that both my and your H's seem to think love is all about feelings and they are telling us their feelings are gone and therefore they need to move on.

As for dating, I am not ready - I wish I could say "I am done, am moving on, and can have fun with some other guy". But I can't. I can go out with a guy, but can't have fun with him.

My girlfriend is visiting us with her daughter. She just saw this picture on our fridge - the date is August 15, 2004. Almost exact a year ago! There H, me, DS2 and my dad (he was visiting us that weekend) were together smiling. What a year makes a difference!!! I never imagined that we would be in this situation a year from that. I am feeling a bit sad.

I just read Mimi and Mel's comments on EAV's thread. I agree, EAV has done a lot of Plan A in the past, and her H knows that she truly cares about him. I am now not sure if that applies to my case - in my mind, I have not done a good Plan A and one of H's complaints is that I never showed affection to him and appeared "too busy" with my own career and other things. Any thoughts?

H liked that we (not because of me, but b/c I brought DS2 over) visited H last night with a card and present. I wanted to call him this morning to wish him a happy birthday since today really is his birthday, but we just gave him the present last night and I did not want to overdo it. But if H does not call tonight, do you think it is okay to call him tonight so that DS2 can say happy birthday?

milkshake, if you are in Plan A I would very much recommend that you call him and wish him a happy birthday. Especially if one of his complaints were that you never showed him affection. I would look for every opportunity to show him affection and that you are not too busy for him.

p.s. to answer your question over on Eav's thread, nagging is a lovebuster that should be avoided in Plan A. Nagging, pleading, begging are all lovebusters.

Milk:

What is your conclusion as to whether your WH is a sexually addicted?

Thank you Mel and Mimi. I just called to with him a happy birthday. I thought he might want to speak to DS2 but he fell asleep so I called and said
"Hi, happy birthday. I though you might want to speak to DS2 but he fell asleep"
"Thanks, it was a busy day - I went to work and came back and went to work out. And now I am cleaning my apartment. It was a nice working birthday"
I felt bad for him, but did not show that, and joked a bit and said happy birthday again and hung up. It was very short but at least I called him and he did not mind, so that was good.

To answer Mimi's question - his therapist obviously thinks he is a SA, and my therapist seems to think he is as well, although she (my therapist) never met H, so cannot say for sure. One of the ladies in the Divorce Recovery group has a son who is a drug addicted and she says a lot of H's behaviors and comments are similar to her son's, and she feels that H has an addiction.

My conclusion is - I think H is and maybe has always been. But it progressed over the past several years, and that might be due to his stress from his work and from our marriage. And I feel bad about that, b/c I know at least partially I contributed to that. I think also he has been depressed.

I don't know H would ever forgive me and feel love for me. Only if H agrees to see a MC but like yesterday when we were on the phone talking about DS2's therapist, H was suspicious and asked me twice "this is not a divorce therapist, right?" and only after I said that is right he said "THEN I will give her a call", so he is not willing to do that for sure. H only wants to be responsible for DS2 but nor for me or for us. That makes me pretty sad.

H felt that I did not show much affection, so I cannot act like I don't care about him, but at the same time, he said several times "I'm sorry you still have all those feelings for me. You need to move on. I want to move on. Stop obsessing over me. You are going to be fine", so that indicates H FEELS that I love him but obviously that is not working. I really don't know what is the best attitude I should have. I haven't begged, cried, nagged - and as a result, I feel this distance between us like we are just mere friends - and that is what H likes, I think. H wants us to be friends and be able to talk about DS2 but does not want to come back to me as a husband.

Sighs.....

Another week is starting...., it really makes me nervous when I think of the legal issues.... When should I start the process?? I don't want H to start anything, but at the same time this hanging in a limbo where the only thing you hear from H is "divorce, divorce, divorce" and yet nothing gets done is really driving me crazy! All what H has to say is "screw it, forget it, we'll give it another try". I know he wants to save mone on legal costs, but come on, what is it that you are trying to acoomplish my dear H....??? Is he waiting for ME to file??

yes milk he most likely IS waiting for you to file cause if he really wanted a divorce-he would do it himself

i still say plan A....no 180's....you have not shown your husband that you are willing to now meet his needs for enough time!!!

i say send him e-mails or call about your son like i do about the dogs or say something about your day-but not problems or financial stuff unless you really have to. try to make them funny. try to sneak in a few love deposits.

what are his need that you can meet? i skimmed back over your posts but couldn't find them.

admiration? you can get this in there- ex: today i spent an hour looking for......you always kept things so organized you would know where it is

affection? well this is hard because NO RELATIONSHP TALK (this is my BIG mistake)...maybe close an e-mail or phone call with something nice

recreational companionship? ask him if you can go fishing with him and your son-tell him you would love to see your son do this for the first time

try it milk...what have you got to lose??

and NO DIVORCE PAPERS...it's way too soon

if you don't need to do anything DON'T-
If you must for financial reason-separation agreement even if it costs a little more

"buy" time

and i still think you need to look into the possibility of an affair-just in case

but if that's not the case.....another vote for more plan A!