One clarification - I do not wear my wedding ring. I haven't since Jan or Feb..... Was that a LB? But what difference does it make??? H hasn't worn it since Nov last year and ended up loosing it!!!

I called him twice and you would think he can at least call me back or email me to thank for those calls....!!!

This is the man who kept telling me that he would not know what to do without me!!! Sigh...

Hey, it must be my lucky day! On my way back on the train I sat next to someone who turned out to be pretty cute <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> He started talking to me and we talked the whole time but darn, he lives in Minnesota. But maybe there are still pleasant people out there.... maybe.... hope is not a bad thing right...

Oh, when I came home there was a message from H. Don't know why he does not call me at work or on the cell - he is clearly avoiding me! But at least he left me a message acknowledging my messages and said that he would call DS2 on Saturday or Sunday. So that is at least good - well at least he is being reasonable, I guess.

DS2 is learning how to say "we are home" in Japanese and it is just so cute to hear him say it.. he melts my heart completely.

We just came back from my SIL and her family. They have a son who is DS2's age. It was nice spending the evening together.

She said "it is unfortunate my brother is going through this midlife crisis/depression/SA or whatever it is and has decided that he wants to be without his family. We all tried to reason him but he does not want to listen. But he is an adult, we can't really do anything, and he will just have to learn the hard way. He chose this life where he does not feel comfortable even with his own parents, sisters and brother. But that is what he wants".

Although it still hurts to think about what has happened and how my life with DS2 is going to be, talking to her and listening to her calmed me down.

Really, H's decision is VERY VERY unfortunate...

I'm sorry Milkshake. I loved doing that too. DS8 liked to do a full backflip as he got a little older. Don't feel bad about letting him do it with another adult. It will be OK for your son for now. Not having an intact family is not fun. Your H doesn't know what wonderful and happy are.



Now THAT'S what I'm talking about. More time with married friends, less time with single men by yourself.

There are plenty of nice guys out there. There are a bunch on this board. The question is will your H become one. This process is about you right now. If WH comes back, great, you'll be ready. If he doesn't, that's OK too, you'll be ready. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Enjoy being "hit" on a little bit. Just smile, and politey say, no thank you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> The odds are that all the good guys won't be gone by the time your divorce is complete. My friends and family are already lining them up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> One last thing occurred to me. You want to be able to tell your son when he's old enough that you did the best you could, and were always faithful to his dad. Your son needs to learn the lesson of honor one day. Your husband isn't currently in a position to do that. That leave it up to you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

WW took off her wedding ring the day before I caught her and OM19. BIG LB. Mine is still on my finger, and stays there until D is final. I made a committment. I've had a couple of woman hit on me... pretty hard too. Test from God? That wedding ring is the sign of a commitment I made to my wife before God and our friends.

IMHO, the ring should be back on your finger until D is final. That's for you mostly, and a little for him if he were around. Mine is also on there for my sons. They both know it's there. WW's ring is on my dresser.

Even if the guy on the street were Mr. Right, you're not Ms. Right. Not yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Sleepless. I kept myself busy yesterday and today. I took DS2 yesterday to the railway museum where they had the annual event "Day out with Thomas" with my friend, her friend, and their sons. Three boys had a pretty good time. I couldn't believe that they charge $8 for a Thomas baloon!!!

Then after that we came home, gave our dog a bath together, and then went to our neighbor's house. We ordered pizza and came home around 8:00pm. It was a nice Saturday.

Then today, I wanted to take DS2 to church but realized that I needed to do oil change and it is way over due, and since this church I was thinking of going is about 35 miles away, I did not think it would be a good idea to go without the oil change, so we went to take care of the business. We also had our car washed. I use Mobile 1 oil, and boy, it cost more than twice as much as regular oil!!! Gee. We did a little grocery shopping after that and came home. Then we did laundry, cleaning, etc. Pretty productive day I guess.

Last night, while we were at our neighbor's house, H called (I asked him to call DS2 sometime during the weekend from CA). I asked him why he was there during the weekend for work and he said b/c some people had to be there on Fri and Mon. See, I am not sure if H is telling me the truth or not.

Sleepless, I see your point about wearing the wedding ring. I want to be wearing it too, but feel pretty pointless at this point. I rarely see H in the first place, he does not really notice anything about me anyway now, and he hates that when I tell him I am still having this hope for us to get back together. H is the one who told me before leaving our house "once I move out, you can start dating". Although I think he said that b/c that is what HE WANTED to do.

I am planning on having a little get-together for DS2's birthday during the Labor Day weekend. I will invite H, but am not sure if he would come.

The railway museum sounds like fun. I thought I used to go there with my grandpa. Lots of Steam engnines if I recall. Have you been to Science and Industry yet? Lots of stuff to do there if I recall. I hope that was a nice balloon for $8 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Using Synthetic Oil (Mobil 1) on your baby? Is this a sports car you run at high RPMs? You don't change it every 3000 miles do you? Sounds like you were really productive. Nothing wrong with that.


It's hard to say unless it's someone he works with, and they spent the weekend together. Do you know anyone at his work you could check with? Being there on a Friday AND Monday is pretty suspicious though.


Then put it on. It's not pointless. He doesn't own you with it on. It tells everyone, including yourself, you're going to follow this through until the end. No wavering.



Yes he does. But he won't tell you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />



That's his overwhelming sense of guilt talking. He may be thinking "I don't even DESERVE to be loved the way she loves me." You're in the right here. No begging or pleading. Just be the lighthouse.


In my wife's case. When she told me that, it was because she thought she screwed up my life by marrying me, and I deserved better. They don't realize they can be better, but they can't do it on their own.



Invite him. Expect that he won't come. Be surpised if he does. When's your son's birthday. My DS8 turns 9 on September 6. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

milk

my thoughts on your situation are the same as earlier!

Not THAT nice!



No, I drive an SUV - are you saying Synthetic Oil is not necessary unless you drive a sports car?? I should have asked you before going to have it done this morning! My friend suggested it a while back, and since then my H has always used that, and told me to keep using it. Also, are you saying that you don't need to do it every 3,000 miles?




I agree, but I don't know anyone there since he started this new job after he moved out. Any idea as to how I may be able to find out? What if I call the main number tomorrow (Monday) and ask if his department is in CA? But if I call, the receptionist will most likely take the message and let H know - and he would think I was snooping around...


Doesn't it send H a message thought that I am still "hanging in there" or "obsessing over H"? Doesn't that work against the 180 strategy?



That is interesting. Your wife thought she messed up your life, but all what she needed to do to at least help correct the mess was to start acting like your wife....


His birthday is September 1. He will be 3!! I still remember the day he was born, and just can't believe my baby will turn 3 soon! He is picking up a lot of things from his daycare...., he tells me "leave me alone" in the morning when I wake him up to get dressed... then b/c I continue to dress him up, he would say "Mom, you have been mean to me, I am not your friend". He cracks me up but of course I try not to laugh though... If I laugh, he would say "it's not funny Mama!". How can you not laugh??

I expect tomorrow I will receive a contract from my lawyer. Should I find out about his work situation (the CA trip)? I feel at this point any discovery or no discovery would not make any difference and I am only fooling myself... People are telling me to get the lawyer, file for divorce, and get over with it....

milk

i think synthetic oil is only recommended for sports cars and a few others. sheck your owners manual.

it IS recommended for my car-about $70 each oil change....but then again...one tire for my car costs $300...

no onepities me though cause "if you can't afford the upkeep you can't afford the car"

so i enjoy it and keep spening...it's one of the few thingsthat i do for ME and i'm not giving it up!

Thanks Eav, well now I know. I knew it was not necessary, but thought in the end my SUV would last longer or something. Which may well be the case, but given my current situation, I am not sure if spending so much for an oil change is something I should be doing.... will think about it and will ask you guys "experts" fot your opinions!

I am having a sad morning today... Mornings are usually harder for me. Eav, I have a question for you. Did your H come up with (not just asking but actually taking some actionns on this matter) the agreement last summer AFTER he moved out? Did he actually send you a copy? How long was he gone by then? I remember your saying that then he came up with the topic again this July, when he started seeing the same OW again right?

I am just trying to understand better and possibly guestimate.... H kept talking about divorce (the last time he talked about it was about three weeks ago), but hasn't really done anything. I know one of the reasons (this could be the biggest reason!) is financial. H just does not spend a lot on legal costs, so he does not want to just hire a lawyer and let him/her work on our divorce filing.

He did tell me what he wants in terms of asset division. He asked me if I am still interested in the option of taking DS2 to Japan in the future, and I said yes. So maybe another hungup is this "option". H may not want to put that in our agreement, but then again he may be afraid that if we do not agree, we would have to take that to the court, costing us a lot of money. So again, EVEN THOUGH I want to believe that a part of H is still afraid of actually filing anything official, the HARD REALITY is probably just H's not wanting to spend money.

So I am asking you Eav - b/c that may give me some ideas as to WHEN H will most likely take actual legal steps... It is scary that I want to prepare myself... And like I said, I feel like I SHOULD take the first step to protect myself and DS2...

ANYONE want to give me your thoughts on this? Again, I understand the importance of protecting my finances, but if H is not taking any legal actions yet, and told me "you are weird, you kept saying you want us to reconcile, yet you changed the garage door code", so if I take any legal steps it is going to be a big LB! And, so far, H hasn't done anything stupid financially, and said he would give me the house - well if he is going to give me the house, of course I do not mind keep paying the mortgage myself, but again, there is no guarantee that he will not change his mind. When I gave him the birthday present, he seemed pleased. So should I just wait a bit longer w/o the legal paperwork?

Any advice on this (especially if you have a similar experience where YOU had to take the legal actions FIRST but in the end your WS came back) would be very much appreciated!!

One of H's sisters called me this morning to let me know she may not be able to come to DS2's birthday party. She is the one who sympathizes with H and so far has been in constant contact with him. She also has similar personality and problems as H.

I asked her to keep the weekend open for DS2, and she told me this morning her new boyfriend (she has had probably 100 boyfriends and none has lasted longer than 1 1/2 years..., that is the longest, but usually her relationship last about 3-6 months that is all..) got this concert ticket for Sunday night so she wants me to have the party on Saturday. Well this is typical of her. She is not a bad girl, but simply selfish. She always priortize her needs and schedule. I told her she would still have time before going to the concert in the evening so she should stop by. She was the only one who also missed DS2's first birthday party as well. And she asked me if I could swing by with DS2 sometime this week so that I can meet her new boyfriend. So she cannot accomodate her nephew's birthday party plan, but I should open up my schedule so that I can meet her (most likely will be another temporary) boyfriend??

Then I started to think... H is just like that. Very selfish. Maybe that is why his sister is still single (she is 35) and H is going through this mess... They both cannot stick to one job either - they tend to change jobs or loose their jobs every 2 years or so.

She has been on ADs and also had an alcohol addiction. H is on AD and has an sex addiction. They are both impatient and selfish and immature. They both have ADD/ADHD. They don't like responsibility.

So..., I thought in the past that although there are some similarities btw H and his sister (his two half sisters have very different personality) he is more reasonable and responsible..., but now, they are just the same!

Is there any hope that H would become a reasonably responsible individual who does not always think of his needs first?? Oh, they both BELIEVE in taking care of themselves and making themselves happy first. Again, I really think that is one of the reasons my SIL cannot sustain a good relationship. She smokes like a chimney and has a bad spending habit as well. When her old boyfriends asked her to change those nasty habits, she became defensive. She told me once that one of her ex asked her to start paying off her debt instead of continue on putting on more debt on her credit card - before they can even think of their future together. And she was so offended by that. She said "he is trying to control me!". I thought it was a good suggestion that her boyfriend had, and if I were the guy, I would have asked the same thing. But she felt the guy did not have a right to ask her what to do. I am sure that is how H feels, and that is why he was building up this anger towards me thinking that I have been so controling.

Again, this boils down to my ultimate question. Can he change and be happy with me? Because otherwise I do not see how he would even consider coming back to me and staying with me. And I do not see how we can build a good relationship.

Sigh...., do you think maybe we were not meant for each other?

Just having a sad afternoon...

...just got the contract from my lawyer...

Hi Milk,

I'm sorry. Can you call a friend or go out to dinner? I wish I could help but I dont think you can really avoid the sadness in all this. Just something to work through and get past.

I dont know if you can draw any big conclusions on whether you two were 'meant' to be, or where he's going to be happy, so dont try, ok? It leaves you in a bad place, and you need brighter thoughts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One thing SA's will generally say, is that they're not happy. He's got a long way to go to get happy again, with or without you. I've got two uncles who lost their families because they'd rather be alcoholic's than fathers. It's insane, and I dont think I'll ever understand it. Pitiful men.

Please take care of yourself - Dru

Dru, you are right about unhappiness. H told me so many times "I am not happy". He even yelled at me several times "why am I so f****** sad?". H also asked me several times "are you happy?"

So you really don't see much hope in this, huh. Is it b/c H is an addict? Is being an addict like cheating all the time then, because your addiction is the most important thing? Why can't his therapist help him? H told me a story about his SA friend who has been divorced, but then realised that he actually loved his wife. They are still divorced but in recovery. H told me that and said "I wish I would get my old feelings for you as well for the sake of DS2 as well". But that was nearly 4 months ago. Now he is just cold and does not even want to talk to me.

Sounds like SA's are not happy about themselves - then why can't H think that he would need a family support to go through this? I guess b/c he knows I would get mad at him or disappointed, which would make him feel sad and inadequate and empty again...

I know, I can't control him but we have been together for so long and I hate feeling so powerless over him or his life...

What would you do, would you just file for divorce? I know you wanted to get out, which turned out to be a wakeup call for your FWH. Did you feel you had enough b/c you did not think your H would not change, or b/c you were simply tired of trying further?

Hi Milk,


Do you have any experience with drug addicts or alcoholics? It's very much the same. A therapist cant 'fix' them. They can only decided when it's time to fix themselves, and some never do.

Like my two uncles, they trashed their families for booze. How stupid it that? Their wives asking 'how can I fix this, what did I do wrong, what can I do...', all for naught. One of my uncles left a LOVELY wife and the cutest kids, ended up living with a 50yo, half-toothless, alcholoic stripper with hepatitus! YUCK! We thought he must have had a brain tumor... totally insane.

The SA kinda puts a big, invisible shield between the SA and and the spouce. Have you ever been with him, but you knew he wasnt with you? You mentioned he was arrested for M in public (car)...

DSM Sexual Devient definition: Exhibitionism involves a compulsion to display one’s private parts to strangers. Like gamblers, pyromaniacs and other impulse-junkies, exhibitionists cycle through periods of increasing tension that are only relieved by the ‘rush’ of exposing themselves to strangers (occasionally accompanied by masturbation).

The thing is, he's getting worse, not better. Product of Diminishing Returns, SA's have to DO more or more extreme acts to get the same RUSH. They usually cant be in check for very long without treatment...


That's a nice version, I'm sure he'd like to believe, but I'd bet anything it's not the truth. His friend got into recovery because he choose to. He wasnt happy AND he was loosing his family, and he saw a way out, and he took it! He took help available and it was VERY hard for him. Your H doesnt want to do anything that is very hard right now. He's living for the temporary HIGH he gets from acting out, which is followed by a depressing LOW.

If he gets tired of the see-saw, he may get out. If he looses everything, realizes he's still miserable, he may get out. Yes, I would divorce him. Living with an active addict is torture, which I'm sure you know.

That's why I decided to leave my marriage. I was tired of being tortured. I'm a smart, compentent woman, my life is in order, my ducks are in a row, and living with that gut-wrenching pain (without any end in sight) was just too much for me to comprehend. I HATE relationship psycho-dramas. Once I realized things werent going to change, that he'd been just playing along, something in me just clicked. DONE. Enough is enough, you know?

I know this is really hard for you. I hope you are working on your support system, surrounding yourself with those who care for you - Dru

by JavaPrincess, over on SHMI's thread (I/R)

[b]First of all, keep in mind that while you don't have to jettison your Marriage Builders ideals, even Harley says that he won't work with couples who are dealing with an active addiction. Does this mean you have to give up on getting your needs met till H is "past" his SA? No... but it does mean you have to approach the whole thing a bit differently.

How SA Changes Marriage Building

POJA: The Policy of Joint Agreement is a cornerstone of MB philosophy. You can't negotiate with someone who will not be honest about their intentions and who will not keep their commitments. So your spouse has to be at least far enough into their addiction recovery that they've started to behave with some foundational integrity, meaning they don't just agree to whatever you ask for and then do whatever they want.

Emotional Needs: Both spouses want to get their emotional needs met. But realistically, an addict who isn't working the steps yet is probably to selfish to do so effectively. It's similar to a FWS in Withdrawal from an affair. They'll be mopey and depressed as they get used to living without the mood lift of their addiction.

Love Busters: Some love busters, particularly regarding Dishonesty, become basically dealbreakers when you are dealing with an SA. You have to decide for yourself what your dealbreakers are and be crystal clear.

Boundaries: Relationship boundaries aren't really addressed much in MB techniques, but they are crucial if you are going to continue a marriage with a recovering SA. Pick up "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend. It's a fairly easy read, and it's really helpful. This is particularly important if you tend to "manage" other people's problems or have "Caretaker" tendencies.

UAT: Undivided Attention Time, aka "Dating your Spouse." He's giving up a significant source of endorphins and stress-release. You're in a stressful sitch. Do whatever you have to do to make sure you both spend time in MUTUALLY ENJOYABLE ACTIVITIES. Strain your brain if you have to. And "we'll do this thing I like this time and that thing you like next time" doesn't count. If you're not BOTH enjoying yourselves, it's a waste of time. The SA recovering couple needs it particularly alot.

Expectations: Don't expect to be a six month wonder in recovery if SA is involved. True recovery from addiction is glacially slow. Sometimes it will seem like no progress at all for months--then suddenly you and/or your spouse will have a "growth spurt."

Take a break: Develop some personal interests. Make yourself spend time doing something besides "recovery."

I hope this helps. Will post more if I think of anything.[b]

--------------------

Thanks Dru. I feel sick in my stomach since last night thinking about the big move I may have to make soon. With my family in another country, I feel terribly lonely. I do have friends to hang out with, and have been trying to keep myself busy, but still it is different from having a "family" here. H has been the only family to me for a long time. Yes I have DS2, which is blessing, but I wish I had someone, some family member, that I could rely on when I have a tough time.

Whether H's SA is the primary driver here or his depression or midlife crisis, it does not sound like he would snap out of it tomorrow, I understand... So I have to "assume" things will not change, to protect myself... This is what my therapist told me a while back "assume nothing, assume he will not return to you, in order to get off the emotional roller coaster". I understand that by all means but it's really difficult to actually execute it acoordingly...

I will keep reading the list JavaPrincess put out. Thanks for forwarding it. A lot of them make sense... although since H is now living alone and does not have anything to do with me, we can't possibly try to have "fun" together (UAT). That's unfortunate, b/c H did mention several times that he does not have "fun" with me anymore - I only wish H is still in the house so that we could try to do something together!

I know the world does not end even if we divorce and I will continue to live and who knows, I may meet someone really nice who would love me and DS2 dearly... but I just can't imagine it. I have accomplished so much in my life - but..., I have done so much hard work to lead myself to this...?? To have a failed marriage? To produce a father-less child?? What have I done?? Why couldn't I think more before...??? Just regrets after regrets... And I completely trusted H with all my heart! How naive was I??

I am praying every day for the strength to go through whatever ahead of me. I really hope I can get through this.

I just emailed H to (1) ask about his trip to CA, (2) ask if he wants to spend some time with DS2 this weekend, (3) invite him for DS2's birthday party next weekend, (4) ask for the support check he hasn't given to me last week and to ask H to include 1/2 of our mutual cell phone bills.

Here is his response:

Thanks - yes the trip went fine

I will mail you a check today. Sorry I didn't get to it earlier

I will have to think about this Sunday. I would like to come but I think I will come before people show up.

H


I was surprised that his response is quite civil. At the same time I feel a great distance btw us. H is gone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />, that is how I feel. I am no longer his "love of his life" as he used to say <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />. Really, is there NOTHING I can do to regain his love? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />