Thanks Just... not sure how to do something wrong right... but I can tell you I am leaning towards a swift implementation of plan B. I really don't want D.

What really stinks about this is that she is a stay at home mom.. (although she is obviously not staying at home while the kids are in day camp) and I have no way to take care of the kids and my job.. especially during summer vacation. So I guess I have no choice but to be the one to move out.. away from my kids and my home.

Anybody else been in this situation?

JSINSD

I don't think you should move out. She'll just move OM in.

If you leave her with the kids and the house and OM...you undermine any motivation to repair the marriage.

I agree with JL that now that you have made the threats, you need to take swift action.

Something I learned along the way:

Say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean.

My problem is however, is that Plan B should be done with a good Plan A beforehand.

Thats why I am asking - what is your plan? Because I've gone back to read your prior posts, and I just don't see plan A.

You've exposed...I guess... have you talked to her family, and to the OM's SO(s?).

Have you been able to determine what your wifes emotional needs are?

Have you been able to identify YOUR part in the downfall of your marriage? Have you asked her?

What actions have you taken to eliminate lovebusters and fill emotional needs?

I've been talking with her parents and they are shocked but don't really know what to do. They are planning to drive down and talk to her. He has no other family that I am aware of. Both parents passed away... He has no ties to anybody according to my wife.

I think so.. she thrives on fun conversation... and she likes to be recognized for her accomplishments...(builds her self-esteem).. Lateley she has gotten very athletic and her body shows it.. Mr. Coach has played a part in motivating her to achieve her athletic potential.. something that has boosted her self esteem immensely. I recognize now that she does have a need for affection.. something that was sorely lacking in our marriage.


It has been a huge topic of our conversations and no doubt I let her down. For a number of years I was very wrapped up in my job. The job came first, kids were second, and she was third. There was not much 'fun conversation' between us. She told me so.. says she felt abandoned.

In between the ugly times (related to the affair) we have enjoyed conversations... I have spent all the time I can around her. I got involved in the swim team so that I could know the other parents so we would be able to talk about them (something new in common). I have been supportive, I have been patient.. There have been times when she lay awake at night and tell me about her struggles with the whole ordeal. I've been the best Dad I can. I try not to have angry outbursts.. but there have been a few. It's getting harder to implement plan A.

Ok then, time for Plan B.

Continue to plan A, see an attorney and ask about your options and get advice regarding separation. You do NOT want to do anything at this stage that puts a divorce settlement or custody arrangement in jeopardy.

I suspect a lawyer will tell you the same thing as I did, do NOT move from your home. Do NOT leave your children.

If anyone leaves, it should be her. She needs to begin contributing to her own financial support. She should not be allowed to date OM, while you foot the entire bill.

I don't have any good suggestions about how to practically implement this, but I am sure people here can chime in with some creative ideas.

And in the meantime, drop the divorce threats.

Do you think I should tell her that I am consulting an attorney? She would find out soon when she sees the bill.

Thanks,

JSINSD

OK I have an appointment with an attorney tomorrow and my wife knows. She said she really doesn't want a divorce and that she really ended the A this time (once again).. but my evidence points to the contrary. Problem is that I have irrefutable evidence that the affair is continuing.. but I can't share with her because I don't want to reveal my snooping method...

I plan A'd like ****** all weekend.. but she is just going deeper under cover. I know exactly what is happening but can not really confront her with the evidence.

Anybody out there in a similar situation?

This is madening.

Hi JSINSD,

My husband and I have been lurking and following your story...so sorry you're going through this...

Anyway, for what it's worth, here's my 2 cents...

1) You can tell her that you KNOW that she is still in contact/seeing the OM...you don't have to prove it to her, she already knows, therefore you do not have to reveal your source...keep her guessing...there's probably a lot that you don't know, but she'll think that you do...BLUFF, BLUFF, BLUFF!!! Plan A takes time(more than a weekend)keep gathering intelligence (tape recorder in car, on home phone, key logger...EVERYTHING you can)the more uncomfortable you can make this affair by making them squirm and wonder the sooner you will bust it up...easier to meet EN's without OM and the FOG...

2) Does she still have the OM's cell? Then have her give it to you and you will give it back or you can both give it back together...whatever works...if she wants the marriage/no divorce then open and honest is the only thing that will work...

3) Sit down and write a NC letter together...could be delivered with the cell phone...

Just a few suggestions, hope they are worth at least 2 cents...good luck to you...

Hi WWWondering! Thanks for posting.

Yes your suggestions are basically what I am doing. Letting her know that I know... especially when they get together.. but not letting her how I know. She thinks I am speculating.. but she is also quite disturbed that I seem to know so much (if she only knew how much I know!)

Yes she has the cell phone... In a panic last week she gave it back to OM (because I called the number) but I happen to know that she got it back from him today. She has it very well hidden in the house somewhere.. I have looked everywhere for it and can't find it. I know it is there.. now if I could just find it... any ideas on really really good cell phone hiding places? I would love to find the darn thing and take it out of the equation.

Dear JSINSD ~ While finding the cell phone may give you temporary satisfaction, it won't help end the affair.

What your wife is telling you is that she wants to cake eat - she likes being married but also likes her affair.

This is why your Plan B needs to happen sooner than later. I don't think you should discuss the attorney with your wife. There is no point in tell her how you plan to protect yourself - she is not to be trusted!

Have you called Steve Harley and talked to him about this?

JSINSD,

Good Hiding Places for Cell Phones (and other affair paraphernalia) :

1. Her Closet (purses, jacket pockets, shoes, boots, etc.)
2. Dirty Laundry basket/hamper
3. Make up/Vanity Drawers (and all bags therein)
4. Under Car Seat
5. Computer Printer
6. Jewelry box
7. Tampon/Feminine Hygiene Boxes
8. Behind books/pictures
9. The simple ones - under mattress, boxspring, pillow case, nightstand, under furniture
10. In Refrigerator (kitchen appliances)
11. Empty Video cases


Hopefully we thought of one you haven't.

Mr & Mrs WWWondering

Latest... I got the cell phone.. but I know that does not solve any of the issues.

Snooping has revealed that my wife and OM's plan is play it cool and quiet for three weeks.. until school starts. The idea is to make me think there is no contact and that the A is over. Of course once the kids go back to school, W will have all kinds of free time and they can startup their daily rendevous again. Their logic is that if they keep things very low key during this period I will suspect it really is over this time. They actually have a long-term (10 year!) plan to wait until the kids are in college before they run off together.

So... how do I handle this.. Plan A and pretend like I don't know?... or just state that I KNOW it's not over and I that won't be fooled... while plan A'ing.

I would love to implement plan B.. but I can't without moving out... and I really don't want to do that.

Any ideas?

I thought you were going to see an attny about your legal options for Plan B?

JDINSD---Mr. Wondering here

Continue Plan A and monitering. Don't reveal that issue at all b/c they are living in Neverland right now. My wife and her OM had delusions that they could wait a couple years to be together, they said things like "whatever it takes I'll be there waiting for you". I thought at the time I discovered this thinking "Wow, they are totally setting me up as some kind of punk". The Taker in you is stirring. It's not even close to realistic. IGNORE IT. In ten years you'll either be happily married to your current wife or you'll be looking forward to seeing your former wife at your childrens' graduation party's and weddings. Either way, you must control your reactions now in order to save your marriage, be a good father (despite the outcome), and God forbid to be a non-resentful ex-husband, if that's the eventual case. So right now...play along...don't confront... take the opportunity to help her cool it for 3 weeks...your monitering just bought you more time to implement Plan A.

Their 10 year plan is based on nothing as is the 3 week plan. IT'S FOG TALK. Please look around these boards for the ways to reverse fog talk.

BTW, my wife now has no interest in OM. The plans they discussed and dreamed about are all irrelevant. If you are going to monitor tightly you are going to learn things you will have to live with the rest of your marriage and life. If you don't have the skills to overcome the FOG then try not to spy to much. I did it compulsively. But in the end all the information I needed I got on D-Day. You should moniter a little for contact but now it's just Plan A.

Instead of monitering. There are strategies in the boards for taking the offensive a little against the OM. It's not the healthiest behavior, because it's "other" focused... but neither is compulsive monitering. Find and attack his weaknesses. Your monitering, your spouse and/or OM himself will provide you with the weaknesses.

My attacks....My wife's OM, was/is 36, recently divorced, paying child support, just went bankrupt and lives with his parents. That doesn't make him a bad person (sleeping with my wife did). However, I innocently added up what my wife spent individually each of the last 3 years. I inflated the numbers somewhat. I merely discussed the numbers in conversation with my wife and she couldn't help herself but to tell and discuss with her new boyfriend. Further, her OM thought he'd be possibly be on a money train if he snagged my wife. I let her see notes, balance sheets and discussions I had with my CPA about business valuations. I made it appear we had virtually nothing to split. In conclusion, OM gets wife with outrageous spending habits and no money.

My second game from which I am recovering as I type. I promised my wife, we'd go get some plastic surgery. I made this promise when I really thought Divorce was inevitable. So I didn't think it would really happen. However, a tummytuck involves substantial downtime at home. Where I could Plan A, show her I am changed man aware of Emotional needs, etc. Mostly she would be stuck at home with me unable to contact OM. (OM lived out of state). I knew I was the better man, I just had to find time with her to prove it and get her off the computer and cell phone with OM. I have to believe you are by far the better man ( a swim coach serial adulterer, really? WTF). Anyway, this helped bust up her summer dreams of somehow conjuring up a way for them to be together.

Did my tricks work? It played with him. It made them think and discuss real issues. Was it worth the effort to me...PROBABLY NOT (especially considering the cost of the tummy tuck my wife got last week and the double-chin lipo I got today). Did it have any effect/affect on ending the affair, it may have accelerated it's eventual demise. I wish I had worked harder at our businesses so I'd have more time with my wife now that we are in recovery. But until you get final NC...I myself know... how compulsive it is to analyze every little detail...thus the distraction of messing with OM was fun.

Final thought with tongue in cheek. Plan A takes time - you've apparently got 10 years within which to break these two up. Have patience...Stick with me...I think with my help...and my help alone...I can get him out of your life for good by at least year 4 or 5.

I'm a rambling-too much Vicodin tonight

Mr. WWWondering

PS - Look for positives. The 10 year plan does indicate she is not completely lost in the fog. Her family still means something to her and she's not planning to divorce you any time soon. Have confidence it sounds as though it will be YOUR CHOICE to either wait it out till you and her eventually kick the coach to the curb...or you decide to leave your wife. Either way, you will make it.

I did talk to an attorney... but I was not happy with their seemingly cookie-cutter approach. I need to shop around a bit more for an attny that relates better to this situation.

W is insistant now that the A is over (of course I know better). She even told her parents, who came down on her very hard this week, that it is over and they said they are relieved.

I think I will follow Wondering's advice for the next few weeks and just sort of play along. In the mean time I will seriously consider how to properly implement plan B.

And there's a new interesting development.. OM has threatened to call the police because I have "stolen" his cell phone. I guess he forgets that he gave it to my wife.. so technically it is hers ... or ours according to community property laws.. at least that's the way I see it.

The fun continues.

So plan A while planning Plan B.

Call Steve Harley?

As I have pointed out in the past - a few hours of marriage coaching is far cheaper and far more satisfying than divorce.

Invest in your marriage.

Hello again;

Glad you took my advice and are playing it out. I am an attorney also and finding a divorce attorney is tough. It's usually not the area of law the really good attorney's want to be in. Bankruptcy and divorce lawyer...who would want that job 24-7/365. I previously practiced in the Tax/Estate Planning Area not exciting but at least not banging heads with disgruntled spouses and/or creditors.

I would suggest reading through many of MortarMan's posts to Gramn found on this General Questions board. He details the processes of Plan A'ing while on the back side protecting yourself and your family by preparing for a divorce/custody fight. He has suggestions for finding an attorney. What you need to start documenting now in order to assist you with retaining your home and custody (i.e.- start a journal now indicating what, when, and how you take care of your kids). Just because she's a stay at home mom doesn't mean you can't win. This fall if she's off in neverland with Coach, shrugging her parental responsibilities and you're doing all the parenting guess what you may win. Mortarman has the game plan down and you'd be wise to take the time to read through it.

As an attorney myself IMHO stay away from the divorce for men shops as they are marketing machines generally designed to bleed your marital estate dry. Look for the 1 or 2 man/woman shop (I prefer a woman divorce attorney) that you feel comfortable with. Then, as Mortarman advises, you need to help your attorney prepare your case. Even if they say they don't need your help. Help them anyway. You can save money and they will do a better job if you are involved and not just letting them handle it.

Because your wife is apparently going to wait quite awhile before divorcing you (10 years) you can wait out to the perfect time to file on your own (if you ever so desire). However, I hope you will eventually break through the fog before you ever file and get the opportunity to be the husband you wish you'd been all along. I wish you luck and my wife and I will be praying for you and yours.

Mr. WWWondering

PS - Hey Coach, I don't know what your talking about I don't have your cell phone, maybe the dog ate it.

PSS - maybe you just call him on it and use it as your own phone. Who pays the bill? If it's him, call China for 2 hours. Maybe he'll be dumb enough to sue you to pay the bill... think this out I may be to close to my own D-Day fantasies to give rational advice...besides I'm still on Vicodin

Thank you Bramble and both WWWonderings. It's been comforting to know that there are others who understand what I am going through. Your advice seems to me right on track. I was going to meet with Steve this week but my schedule did not coincide with his openings. Perhaps next week.

Exposure has taken a severe emotional toll on my wife. Her parents read her the riot act and FIL even called Coach and gave him a piece of his mind. I was happy to hear that Coach responded with true beligerence to FIL so now FIL and MIL know the type of scum their daughter has fallen for.

Mr. Wondering - you hit it on the head.. he is a serial adulterer... and I am hopeful that this fact (well known to my wife) will expedite the fog clearing process. During his three week "vacation" from the A, I know my wife will be highly suspicious of his activities.

One bright spot is that I know W was secretly reading my "NOT Just Friends" book by Shirley Glass.. (a great book if you haven't checked it out.) I had asked her to read it in the past and she refused.. so it is interesting that she is reading it now in secret. However I know the main reason she is reading it is to better understand OM's likely infidelity to her. According to Shirley's book my wife is what's called a monogomous infidel.. a person who can only be emotionally attached (loving) and sexually active with one person. This explains why when the A started it was painfully obvious to me that something was wrong due to the fact that she withdrew her attention towards me almost overnight.

Coach on the other hand is just the opposite type.. a lone woof who does not form long term attachments and prefers multiple relationships.

At this point W is down about as low as I have seen her. She feels alienated from her family and the friends who I have told.. She knows we need to quit the swim team.. and now with a three week vacation.. who knows what coach will be up to.

I tried to be her friend last night (an attempt on my part at Plan A behavior) but she refused to talk to me.

BTW I still have the phone.. and so far the police have not shown up.. I LOVE the idea of calling China for a few hours... But the phone battery is dead and I don't have the charger. Oh well.

I also like the idea of playing with his mind.. He is not that bright (even W admits it) so it shouldn't be difficult.

Well.. on to the weekend. We'll see what develops. Never a dull moment. Thanks again for your support and suggestions.

JDINSD

Mr. Wondering again

My wife also stated several times she was stuck with me and would stay with me in a loveless marriage after I pointed out she'd never get custody if she moved out of state. I found myself arguing back that I refused to stay in a loveless marriage, however, looking back it was all just fog talk. It was frustrating at the time and hurts to think about now but I guarantee once Coach is gone and you are meeting her EN your marriage will not be loveless. That's part of the point of Plan A. You box them in with no where else to turn. You are being a great guy, a wonderful, understanding husband, and the "lighthouse" leading them out of the storm they have created in their lives. If not respected, in time, Plan B happens then they will remember Plan A husband fondly and want that guy back.

Another thought. I reached the point in Plan A where I kind of gave up. I said to myself, "if this summer is going to be the end, then I want to enjoy having my wife and daughter for this time we still have together". I prayed for the power to change what I could change and accept what I could not. God answered my prayers as I allowed them to be revealled in His time. I was even able to OCCASIONALLY sit with my wife while she talked on the phone with OM, of course, I knew I was being an irritant. However, I tried to remain friendly with silly or thoughtful interjections. I thought maybe OM would perceive that I really didn't see him as a threat. At the time I thought he was a threat...in hindsight...he really wasn't. On the other hand, if he hadn't of gained a conscience and ended things with my wife, she may never have gotten off the fence herself and I'd probably still be battling today.

Now that my wife is out of withdrawal, she can't believe she did this. Our marriage wasn't perfect but this guy was a loser. Affairing down is quite common. Ask your wife this, if she were single, would Coach be the kind of guy she would have dated or sought out. A known womanizer, serial adulterer who has the ability to disrespect her parents. I think not.

Good Luck - Mr. WWWondering

P.S.- Try to get your wife out alone, without the kids. Tell her you just want to have fun again with her, as a friend/husband/whatever, don't push the affair topic let her come to you with it. Really try to have some fun. Go boogie boarding or something you two did in the past. If you've read Mortmarman -- you do marriage, leave the divorce stuff in the background and for the lawyers to handle. As stated, your divorce bluff, though it agitates her and you get a response, really isn't working for you anymore. So don't bother, until your done with Plan A and B.

WW and Coach have been talking pretty much non-stop on the phone whenever I am not around. She had told me last week that they had a "no contact contract" and that they were both living up to it... Of course I knew better.

Over the weekend she admitted that her "no contact contract" doesn't really mean that she has stopped all contact... it only means that she has stopped physical contact and get-togethers and that they are "minimizing" the phone calls. It is true that they have stopped their get-togethers but I also happen to know they plan to start them up in a couple of weeks when the kids are in school and when they think I will be less vigilant.

Over the weekend I layed off all the A talk and played the part of the upbeat, confident Dad and husband. As a result she started to open up to me a bit... She was basically telling me that OM will eventually lose interest and move on.. She was telling me about his so-called social outings with other women (married, in fact) WW still insists that even though they are still talking on the phone, "it is over".

Right.

It just so happens that I know exactly what is being said on her phone calls... and interestingly there is some truth to what she is saying about her concern about the other women... but the reality is she is actually terrified at the prospect of him going out with other women.

So basically I'm right back to where I was 3 weeks ago where WW is telling me there is nothing but phone calls going on.

I'll keep plan A'ing and collecting info and trying to win her confidence. I'll try to be her best friend but I gotta admit it is tough, knowing what I know. If and when I implement plan B (likely in the event of renewed PA) I will make her leave... and figure out some way to deal with the kids logistically. At least at that time they will be back in school.

JJINSD ~

I think you probably need to go to Plan B pretty quickly. All I can say is please make talking to Steve Harley a priority. He will help you SO much.

And keep looking for that attorney.