I am embarrased that I am so capable of hurting and so incapable of helping heal. Please forgive my childish tone in this, but I really.... really, don't know how to solve this problem.


If I have friends in this world, let them read this and respond with wisdom and compassion. A miracle would be the best thing… because I need it.

Hello, fellow MB folk. I certainly hope you are all doing well. My wife and I are not. To what degree, I am not sure, but things in my household are pretty dire.

I have never been one to reach out to people, that I know or don’t know, and ask for prayers, hope, answers or much of anything really…. But I truly am up against an enemy that I can not combat. I have no clue what to do, because anything I have tried has only made things worse. And I have tried.

My wife is a beautiful person. She is giving and caring. At one time, she was happy. At one time. She has been through hell. She has been through adoption, step family situations, physical abuse, molestation of a child… and now my transgression. Hell is consuming her, and I have a front row seat to the entire event. I have watched, day by day, as she has gone from ‘I can’t believe you did this to me’ to ‘We can make it through this’ to ‘I have no will to live and the only thing keeping me alive right now is my children’. I used to be happy that the children lived with us, because they were keeping her alive. Now, not even that is holding as much for her anymore.

I am frightened and scared. I want the hell and evil to stop but it won’t.

We go to MC once a week and that has not been the best. Frankly, it isn’t working. The MC uses the same assumptions and ideas that I do when I talk to Froz. The MC tries to get Froz to forgive. She tries to get Froz to accept that the past is done and that you can make today and tomorrow better. I say much the same thing. At least it is free to hear it from me, but either way it is failing. Additionally, that she hears the same kinds of things from me and from MC, she feels ganged up on. And this further makes her angry. And this further drives her away from me. She says she wants to stay with me. She says she loves me. But she says it’s probably too late. That nothing can be done.

Froz says you can not change the past. I have said it too. The key difference is she sees no way to keep the past from ruining the future. She says she wants to be happy. She feels like she can not. She wants nothing in this life anymore. What she wanted is gone and will be gone forever. When I say I feel something, to me, that is usually an implication that it may not be that way and I am willing to or going to get through it. Froz is driven by feeling. Everything is feeling. Truth is feeling. She can not change her reactions to anything. So, if she feels something, then that is the way it is. Today, and for many days now, she feels hopeless. And because she feels hopeless it IS true. There is no hope she says. And because there is no hope, she is losing her will to live. Nothing in this life is worth anything to her. She is on autopilot and finds nothing enjoyable. I have always thought that someone had more control over their life than this. She does not. And I am not ridiculing her. It is simply the truth. She has no control over her life. I have destroyed it and that is that. Now, she is just waiting to die.

For those of you that say “you did the crime now do the time” to the WS, I have something I want to say. Had I known that I would take away someone’s will to live, turn them into a recluse that hides in the bedroom and begs for me to be near but get the hell away, and hate myself everyday for even still being able to breathe…. I have to believe that I would have made such a different choice. Not that it matters now. I made my mistakes. She is destroyed. I sit here and watch rigor set in.

I have hope but I know no answers. Without being able to get her to agree to some things, I am at a roadblock that I can’t even see, nor remove. Here are some facts.

She wants to be happy. She misses it and has said so. For her, it stops here and can go no further. For me, I would take this desire and seek out what did make me happy. Playing guitar was an escape. Playing drums was an escape. Playing games on the computer was an escape. Once I have engaged in an escape, I can recharge and be stronger the next time I have to face an issue. Also, time makes an issue less painful for me. My natural survival mechanisms just work that way. I guess I have escapes because I like those things. She does not have any escapes. She says they are fake. She calls everything fake, it seems. The only thing that is real is that for a year and a half, I did not love her when she loved me. It is real that I destroyed her. End of story. Nothing to pull her from the thoughts in her head if for even just an hour. If we sit and talk(which conversation is a #1 need for her) although her words may or may not be polite, her mind is ALWAYS running 100 mph on what I have done and how hurt she is. How hopeless life is. No matter what is going on in the day, her mind can not get away from her hurt. And so it is consuming her. She wakes up sad. She is sad during the day. She goes to sleep sad. And since she and I are not in the same place(because my natural survival mechanism is running) she is further saddened because I am leaving her behind. I am trying to move forward. The future CAN be better. Hell… it can be AT LEAST better than yesterday was. Nothing works. I mentioned going to IC for her last night. She says at this point once a week is not going to help. She will not make it, she says. And, the more frustrated she sees me getting because I want so badly to move forward and it doesn’t happen, the more compelled she is to actually force me to leave or leave herself…. Because on top of all this, she can’t stand making me unhappy any further either.

She says things like “You should leave me because you have a chance to be happy. I never will be happy”. She uses never so much now. “I want to be happy” “I never will be” “I want you to love me” “I will never feel your love” Actually, she has said she will never feel love again period. One of the things she does is predict the future. She is big on speculation. What would you do if?, she always asks me. And the problem I have is some of my answers have affected change in her and made her sad and they are not even true. Example. “What would you do if I left you?” she would ask. My answer may vary a little sometimes but the core of it is I would probably move on. Now, for as heartless as that sounds upfront what does it really mean? Well… I find my wife to be the greatest person I know. I love her and she fulfills my life(this being a thing I did not understand before and something that enabled me to stray… I had a very sad, demented outlook on how a relationship worked.) . I love her. This is my life to live. My life. I love her. My life. God gave me life as a gift. Life. So, if I lose her love I will truly be miserable for a time…maybe somewhat miserable forever(but less so I assume based on time… and again, I am not one that speculates. The future is out there and I am just walking towards it.. I don’t think it is waiting for me in a dark alley to pounce and snuff me out) BUT my life is a gift from God. Her love is a gift from her. Now, understand I love her love. It does fulfill me. But does anything replace a gift from God? Should I lose a gift from another human being, must that also take my gift from God? No. That is my stand. Yes, I will be able to move on without her. Because it will not kill me if she leaves me.

She does not see it this way. And that she and I differ on this idea seems to also be a HUGE issue. From this argument, I am told I don’t love her enough and various other things.

But I am not here to attack…lord no. Do you know what I need? Have you been reading and figured it out?

I need someone to show me how to show froz the way. Someone to help me save her. Everything I have tried has failed. I am too logical for this. Logic does not work well with feelings and vice versa. So, for as smart as I am with numbers and science… I feel that I am not equipped to fully be able to handle this. I need help. Anyone that has been where Froz is and can identify with being SO feelings driven. And so beatdown. And no longer having the will to live. Please tell me or show me how you picked yourself back up. Please tell me what your WS did for you that worked.

Nothing is working for me and, I fear, our failure and demise is soon. I DO NOT WANT THIS. She says she does not want this either. She says she wants to be happy. How do you take a feeling person’s wants and make them true. Make them feelings. For a logical person, you just make the decision. You choose. My feelings driven wife did not come with a manual and I am lost!!!! Please help me… as embarrassing as it is for me to beg and plead with anyone that will listen, I need help. I do not want to lose my wife. I feel so small asking for help like this….

Please help me. Please help us.

How many months and days since D-Day?

P92- I am sorry for your pain, and your wifes depression. I wish I had some helpful words to send your way, but I am sure others will shortly. Wanted to let you know I will be praying for you and your family.

I've followed your story. If Froz has decided she never will be happy, I'm afraid there is nothing you can do to save her or show her the way. It will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

All you can do is work on the areas of yourself that you can change.

and give her time...

Sorry

Susan

pat,

I am so sorry for the two of you!
Could you visit a good psychiatrist with froz? It sounds as if she is in dire need of medical attention. She's been dished up a lot in life and she needs help coping with it.

D-day was Nov 12, 2004. So, almost 8 months.

Pat, the 8 month mark seems to be a very bad time in recovery for most. It was the worst time in my recovery. It was when the relief of saving my marriage wore off and the rage took over. The rage was telling me I was a chump for settling for damaged goods. [pride talking!] This was the time when my pride hurt the most acutely and I only wanted to lash out at this "low man."

This seems to be the CLIMAX of recovery for many. After this short phase it just gets better and better. So, I would suggest sucking it up for now and recognizing it for what it is: a viable part of her recovery. She needs to get through the fury in order to heal.


Y'all need to stop telling her to "get over it." She ain't going to "get ovcr it" until she is over it. The past is "not done" for her. What she is experiencing is a NORMAL part of recovery that is NECCESSARY. You are AGGRAVATING the situation by telling her that her feelings are inappropriate. THEY ARE NOT. You are making her feel hopeless by telling her this. You are making her feel there is something wrong with her. Knock it off!

You need to be supportive and accepting right now. Don't let her drive you away with her feelings. Tell her over and over again how much she means to you. She needs your reassurance to soothe her wounded pride now more than ever. ok?

She has made it this far, just have a little more patience with her. She is doing JUST FINE.

I don't really have any answers for you, but do know how your wife feels. When the one person that you love more than life itself betrays you it is hard to get over that. I am also a person that tends to wallow in my own self pity. I make an effort every day to NOT wallow and not be so sad I can't see straight. My 3 children are what keep me going. They make me laugh and make me thankful that I have them. Are your children grown? Maybe a visit from them will help.

I would suggest counseling for her if she will go by herself. I would also suggest church if she is a religious person. I would suggest her reading a good book to occupy her time and her mind.

I assume you are the one that has the A...is that right? Not to make you feel bad but I do believe you reap what you sow. You broke her heart and that may never mend. Are you committed to loving her for the rest of your life? You are the one that is going to have to do all the giving. Love her and show her that you are in this for the long haul. She will come around, but it is now time for you to be the patient one. Pamper her and love her. Your actions will speak much louder than your words.

P.S. if Froz is a normally positive person, she will eventually get tired of all this and snap herself out of it. That is exactly what happened to me after I wallered in the pain.

I agree with Mel...as usual.

She needs your reassurance...that you have the stamina to accept your part in the blame for how hurt she still feels and you are here for the long haul...that you are committed to her and your marriage.

Try to plan to get out together. If you have a beach nearby...go for walks on it together. Peaceful times...quiet times. Is it time for a get-a-way?

She could try to do a meditation exercise that helped me back then:

Be Still and Know...

She also sounds either clinically depressed or hormonally challenged. Is she on AD's? Is she prone to PMS? Is this a constant thing or are the feelings fluctuating in days...

Anyway...it sounds pretty normal for 8 months post D-day.

I hear you loud and clear Patriot. Your pain is plain for all to see. I know what it is to agonize over the harm I have done to another and I also know what it's like to try to beat yourself to death.

I was also the victim of childhood abuse, both physical and emotional. My wife is the victim of childhood rape. In my own case the abuse left me with feelings of rage which I mostly directed inward. I suffer from a determined mind set to abuse myself emotionally in the same way I was abused as a child. I have to guard constantly against beating myself emotionally in the same way I was beaten. Children learn by imitation and that was what I was taught. It took years of counseling to see and understand this trait in myself. I see some of this in your description of what your wife is going through.

It also occurs to me that on some unconscious level your wife may be seeking to use your love for her as a means of paying you back for the pain you have given her. This is a mechanism I understand very well having used it mercilessly in the past on people who loved me. The way it worked for me was that by showing someone how much they had hurt me, and seeing how much pain it caused them, I was able to see that they really DID love me. The more I could use their love to cause them pain the more they loved me. I destroyed more than one relationship in this way.

I don't believe that YOU can help your wife past these feelings if what I said applies. I needed good counseling to help me understand the truth, that I was a worthwhile person in my own right. If I were in your situation I would urge my wife to seek intensive counseling on her own, separate from MC. But you gotta understand bro that ultimately we are all responsible for our own lives. You gotta be there for her but she has to be there for herself as well.

Finally if you really believe that she is contemplating harming herself then you must get her to a place where she cannot follow through. Even a threat of suicide MUST be taken seriously, it's a cry for help that should not be ignored. Chances are good that your wife is just feeling the low spot in the roller coaster we all ride as betrayed spouses. You are the best judge of that. But if there's a chance that it's something more are you willing to take the risk of doing nothing?

If logic isn't working isn't it logical to try something else?
Here is a little secret that WILL work wonders for you to help her along. AGREE WITH HER. Learn to agee with what she tells you. Agree, be sincere, then shut up. You will find an amazing thing that happens when YOU agree with THEIR point of view. They turn around and start defending your ORIGINAL position....

For example: she says: This does not look like it is going to work.
You say: MAYBE you ARE right. Maybe it isn't. (then SHUT up)

It really is funny that suddenly they will turn it around and say... "well I didn't say it was NOT going to work, I just said it may NOT work. I want it to work but I just don't feel like it is."...

Then you say... "Yea, you may be RIGHT, I can see if you don't feel like it is going to work that it looks like it may feel hopeless. (then shut up)....

It is a tool that works extremely well. Just agree with their position, sound sincere, then shut up and watch them chagne positions like magic. Try it .. It works..





Maybe you are right. Maybe it isn't going to work. It does look like it could be hopeless. It looks like nothing is working for you, and it could be that it is too late. It looks like you can't handle your wife being a feeling type person and it looks like you would prefer to be with someone who thinks more like you and goes by logic huh? Maybe someone who doesn't go by feelings. Maybe you can work on turning her into a logic type person.

Remember... FEELINGS FOLLOW THOUGHTS. If you are feeling something, then you are thinking and following that thought process. To get her to change... AGREE WITH HER. then she will instantly want to oppose your agreement with her because she actually has you trapped into giving her food for her depression. Take it away by agreeing with her and telling her that she is right, and that maybe it IS hopeless....... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I bet you will be surprised by the results.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I think frozen needs to find an experienced counselor that specializes in affairs and/or grief counseling. As a parent whose child was killed a few years back, I can tell you that the devastation of an affair is right up there with the death of a child. I can't imagine a counselor telling me "to accept that the past is done and that you can make today and tomorrow better" [ie: get over it] when my son died.

I think she needs a counselor who understands infidelity and can help her with her feelings, instead of telling her she's a nut for having them.

You can do things together, she can do things to heal herself, or you can do things to heal yourself and become stronger for her and you.

Some of the resources I'm throwing out there are secular and some are non-secular. I hope others add resrources that they've researched. I struggle with patience, but doing things helps me become patient.

Things you can do together:
Retrouvaille The word Retrouvaille, simply means 'rediscovery'. The program offers the chance to rediscover yourself, your spouse, and a loving relationship in your marriage. 10's of 1000's headed for divorce have successfully saved their marriages by attending. Retrouvaille is a not spiritual retreat, not a sensitivity group, not a seminar, not a social gathering.

Marriage Builders Weekend & courses – you know this website

Recovering Couples Anonymous (RCA)

Things she can do for herself:
1. Find a local support group – example: Beyond Affairs Network - BAN is made up of local support groups for people who are dealing with the devastating impact of a spouse's affair. It is for women and men (still married or divorced) seeking support in recovering from this experience. BAN

2. Every Heart Restored Intensive Workshop
Topics covered:
• Life after discovering your husband's sexual secret
• Understanding your husband's sexuality
• Now that you know, what should you do?
• Seeking healing in your marriage
• If change doesn't come
• Facing difficult decisions about your marriage

3. Woman Within International is a not-for-profit organization that offers educational opportunities for women to discover the power of who they are and encourages women to communicate this in their relationships, families, workplaces and communities.

Over 7100 women worldwide have attended the Woman Within Training weekend and many of these women have continued their journey at other Woman Within retreats and workshops including Healing the Wounds of Shame, Your Sexual Self, Woman Within Level II and Women Empowering Women.

Things you can do for yourself:
1. Every Man's Battle Workshop
Topics covered:
The Nature of Sexual Temptation
False Intimacy
Boundaries
Restoring Trust and Communication in Marriage
Temptation Cycles and How to Manage Them
Emotional Conflicts Common in Recovery
The Daily Disciplines in Recovery
Shame: Its Impact and Its Management
Relapse Prevention

2. The ManKind Projectoffers trainings which support men in developing lives of integrity, accountability, and connection to feeling. Our trainings challenge men to develop their abilities as leaders, fathers, and elders as ways of offering their deepest gifts in service to the world.

The ManKind Project's New Warrior Training Adventure® is an intense, transformative men's initiation which invites men to forge a deep conscious connection between head and heart. The NWTA offers men a powerful, challenging opportunity to look at all aspects of their lives in a richly supportive environment.

3. Find a local support group for you

Pat, memorize these words from Mel. Froz, needs your unwavering support and love. Be here strength and her rock. Pray with her, read the psalms with her. Be calm, gentle and kind. You be there for the kids when mom can't. Show her the way by your actions and please stop expecting her to get over this so quickly. I do believe that recently she saw a photo that may have set her back quite a bit. Treat her as though dday was that day instead of 8 months ago.

Encourage Froz to get some IC and AD's. You may want to change MC or call the Harley's instead.

Check out the book I mentioned to Froz, Save Haven Marriage. YOU read it and when she is ready she can read it. IMHO you need to make life safe for Froz while she recovers. I know what it is like to want to die every single day. I know the pain of feeling like you will never get past this. Help her get through it.

{{Pat/Froz}}

1. I somehow don't like (to reply too) when both spouses write&read here...
2. I exactly know what Froz's feelings are like... been there... and it IS very hard...
(My X would never have done as you have, at least I think he never felt my pain as you do...)


Nor you can live IN nor FROM the past...


Which is much worse choice of hers then your choice to have A...
It kills too, emotions, family, happinnes TODAY (without Today there is no Tomorrow at all...)


But she still lives... and she will!
This could be a part of her punishing you...
(I do hope it is not a such serious depression!!)


She has control, too... Just her choice to MAKE HERSELF so unhappy and self torturing is wrong... and out of control, just that part...
You did not destroy her life, you destroyed Trust!... maybe Love?...
She's not waiting to die, wants you to show you how deep pain of hers is... somehow you didn't convince her you are really sorry for A, you really love her, and you really would never do the same... in the same depth as her pain is...


Except her feelings...
Don't you get how deep is pain to put everything you have in your life away, as worthless, fake, and just have one 'reality' - that pain in your soul...??
Isn't that the message, Froz?


Don't try, if you really want to help her... if you try that, it means (for her) you don't really get her pain, nor you want to pay for consequences of your A...
See?


You want to forget; for her it might mean you don't get what harm YOU really did...
Told you, you didn't convince her of your Sorry... Sometimes nothing can convince a woman, hope it is not your case (was mine)...


No, no... The more you stand all of this the more you show her your love.
Testing, proving, convincing...
'If you stay with me after all of this I put you through, it means there is still hope that you loved and love only me and you'd never stray again...'


If she's like me ;-) (in those times when I was going through the same crisis), it'd mean:
if he now says 'I have no chance to be happy if without you' or 'if you will never be happy I accept even that life just if it is with you'... - that's a good sign, and I really can trust him again... ;-)


One of situation when sincerity isn't welcomed...


The same if you leave her, it won't kill her...
And she has to know that


No wonder she doesn't move on... you give up much earlier then She decides you 'pass'...


For a logical person... meaning she's not?
It actually shows her you really don't get her paralysing! pain, and you HAVE TO if you want her to move on (with you)...

See, few places, not convincing (for her!), and that's why no moving forward yet...

(I don't blame you, nor her, just I was there, in Froz's shoes, and I might be wrong but I wrote how I felt and what I needed...)



Froz, you have to decide... can you forgive or you cannot, can you live with the past A or not...
There is nothing good (for anyone) between!
(Not considering the time needed for healing, just the FACT, simply Yes or No, in general...)

Why don't you separate for a while?
That might make you see what is more important for you in your life - to stay with your H after A or to be without him... or if life with him is a happier solution than opposite, especially that you still has the chance for that...
The worst will be if you decide you can and it's really too late... For, this all kills Love... Love of Both of you...

Loy, those are great ideas. Pat, I am reading the book Every Heart Restored. Go to a Christian bookstore and pick it up for Froz.

Hi Pat,
Mel is right on, and I just say Loy's post..I totally agree. Mel, I'm really sorry about your loss.

8 mo sucks! Shock has worn off.. no longer in a state of panic... it all sinks in. Major suck.

These major crisis' sometimes trigger these old pains. I recently lost someone very close: I'm reading a Grief Recovery book... with Froz's history, it seems pretty likely that she's dealing with more than just your A. An entire life feeling out of control, enduring unnecessary pain. While scary as hell, it makes a lot of sense after reading the book.

As worried as you are, I'd look for more help, too (Loy's suggestions)! You take care of yourself, too now. No time for you to fall apart, OK? - Dru

I wasnt even close to thinking about forgiveness at 8mo. I think it's unresonable to expect that from her, at this point... She's still working on acceptance.

(((Pat)))

“””At least it is free to hear it from me, but either way it is failing. Additionally, that she hears the same kinds of things from me and from MC, she feels ganged up on. And this further makes her angry. And this further drives her away from me.”””

Exactly, so what courses of action can you take at that point. Froz has an excellent and legitimate point. My advise would be to leave the therapy to therapist. I know this is tough. I know you’ll see her struggle and want to jump in and save her. But the bottom line is that, with situations such as these, she will choose to deal with them on her time line, not yours or the counselors. So that being said you choices seem to be to attempt to force healing which will be met with resistance or work on patience, understanding, and tolerance within yourself while offering support. When I want to change a light bulb in my house I don’t call an electrician. However, if I needed to re-wire the whole thing, I would get the electrician and let him/her do their job without interfering, same principle here. Gosh, I hope your not a electrician cause then my example wouldn’t make any sense.


“””The key difference is she sees no way to keep the past from ruining the future.”””

Just as a side note. I know it’s terribly easy to focus on differences, but try a new way and focus on similarities.

“””I have always thought that someone had more control over their life than this. She does not. And I am not ridiculing her. It is simply the truth.”””

And that is the reality that she is in now. I am someone who lost control of their life so I can relate to that feeling. It’s definitely real. That you haven’t experienced it is a good thing but by the same token you haven’t experienced giving birth and that’s real. I’ve recently dealt with an issue with my fiancé that I cannot relate too one bit. I tried to talk about it, rationalize it, justify it, change it, and on and on. But I simply can’t wrap my mind around it. So I’m left with options. I’m choosing to take a purely supportive role it that. It’s against my “fixer” nature and it’s going to be tough, but that’s my choice.

”””I made my mistakes. She is destroyed.”””

Here is what I see as an issue. You screwed up (that’s a given), you now realize it and of course your natural tendency is to try to fix it. YOU CAN’T FIX IT. You can only take ownership of what you have done and continue to take ownership of your daily actions.

“””I need someone to show me how to show froz the way.”””

IMHO, it is not your or my place to show her the way. It’s for her to choose the way. I believe that you have to look where your power resides. You have no power. So in the absence of power, my question to you is what will you do? What you’ve been doing has obviously not been successful therefore it’s time for a shift in your game plan.