I wish Mrs. Wonk would think this way. I feel like everythiing needs to be on her terms. Remorse has to be her way. Explanations have to be her way, etc.



Yeah, that makes sense. Sprint sounds like he was the same way...so what made him realize that this was not the right way? Or, rather what made him decide that this wasn't an issue to die on the vine, so to speak. I really don't want it to be that way. I want to get by this which was the reason for starting this post in the first place. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Ummm. We don't talk about my A very well because I feel that she comes across as very accusing and angry. (Well, duh.) But, it doesn't make me feel comfortable, either. Yes, I do conflict avoid about this, too...I never got to ask my questions about her affair because we fell into the middle of mine and her anger over that. Haven't quite got back on track in the communication department since. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yep, she's very familiar with MB.

Don't remember anymore! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

This may be your biggest problem...you may come across as accusing and angry to her, and being that she was the first to have hers, and yours may be a result of hers, she is feeling huge remorse and guilt and at the same time, the same anger and hurt as you are - ESP if her A wasn't about love, and more about need fullfilling and attention...

As hard as this for my H to believe, and it may be for you to believe - I didn't want OUT of my marriage as much as my actions show. I wanted my M desperatly, but was convinced H didn't love me, convinced the marriage was one sided...and then along came OM who made me feel special and that I was right - I deserved love...and when i made progress with H, I went and ran to OM as a friend to tell him - as Fudged up as it sounds...I wanted my marriage but was so screwed up on how I was approcahing it while getting my needs met. What I have a HARD time understanding in my H's A is the honesty he tells me that he wanted NOTHING to do with me, he wanted out, he wanted to be over me. He saw a future with this woman (who turned out not be all he thought she was) Because my A wasn't like that - this is HARD for me to understand and hard for me to hear and accept, that concequence to my actions my H wanted NOTHING to do with me.

Luckily for us, we had 7 months between A, and lots of time for me to get into a better frame of mind...if his A had taken place closer to mine, I don't think I would have handled it - I think I would be alot like your wife, trying to figure out both MY affair and his...but because 7 months later, I had analyzed mine to death - and was no longer dealing with my self image, loss of self-respect, etc I was able to handle his. Your wife hasn't had time to even deal with those things - her loss of self respect etc.

One thing I hear from you - and once again - I don't know you or speak your language - but I don't hear alot of remorse for yours. But I hear that in my H too, and I know I am wrong, it's just how he talks...do you think your wife is also hearing the same thing? You ALSO crossed moral boundaries - yes her A put you in the painful situation where you were hurt, alone...but you were able to FALL IN LOVE with someone during this time - just like SF is a blow to you, the love you tell her you felt for OW is a BIG blow to her. And the guilt she may be feeling, like this is a concequence to her action and the combined anger she has.

I thought no matter how dishonorable I was, no matter how horrible I was, I put my H on a pedistool that atleast he would never be like me - and the same disappointment you have in her, and he had in me, I feel in him...disappointment that why didn't he see what an A does to us - he experienced it...how could he not have known...the same way you wonder how could she not have known...but worse in a way because you were admist dealing with the pain. Trust me - she feels as much pain as you do right now.


Watch yourself...do you come across as saying well if she didn't have her affair you would have never been in the position to have yours? cause this is ANGERING to her, as it is to me. We know that there are many concequences to our actions, but two wrongs do not make a right, and saying that almost comes across as YOUR affair being HER fault...and that's just like saying HER affair is YOUR fault...watch your actions. make it safe. Set boundaries when she attacks you, and explain how it makes you feel and ask her if she has questions. Remember to not get too defensive.

The safer she feels to show her emotion the more she will talk as well.

DS-

Again, you have hit the nail on the head!



This is true for me. I wanted my H. I just did not always realize what needs I had until- voila- OM starts meeting them. But, I knew what I really wanted was my M to work. We have a lot of really great things going for us (feel like H's fog and history re-writing makes him unable to see this now).



True for us.




I don't either. I wonder if this is a male vs. female thing. Curious to know how many other WHs have problems with this. My concern is- if H is not really sorry, how can we really heal and what would prevent him from doing it again? My H has resisted a lot of the things that I need to feel more secure and less scared. I do not feel I need verbal remorse as much as I need actions to show me remorse.


Exactly! How could you do the one thing that you knew would hurt me the most?

WB-

Timeline-wise, when did you have intercourse with OW? How much shorter/longer was this than your W's?

And when you can, can you answer the questions I asked about your fog-talk in relationship to the A showing you a "healthier" relationship? That's the 11:11pm post.

Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK, the two of you are making my head hurt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But, Improving, is this not getting to what DS was already saying? That maybe he is remorseful but just not in the way "you" expect it? Is this not, in effect, placing a demand on him to meet what you need in your own specific way - a way he may not be able to do or understand. Basically, does this not set him up to fail?

LOL actually - I am trying to tell you both the same thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> - it's something I can relate too - and something I have done with my H, and have realized i can't if I want the future to work.

OK Smarty Pants! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

WB-

I will tell you what I told my H. I want to see any signs of remorse. I rarely see them. He says he does not like feeling like I expect remorse to look a certain way. This is not it at all. For so long, I saw no remorse at all. That was my true concern. If he did not feel it, then how could he help me heal from his A, how could he grow and learn from it, what was the prevent more D-days, if he did not really feel it? I would love to see remorse. Do I have a certain way he could do it that would really make deposits? Yes. Do I expect that? No. But, I do expect to see some signs of it. At this point, I would settle for genuine, from-the-heart remorse. What he does not realize is that the most genuine remorse I saw in him was on his D-days. Well, he promptly went out and cheated on me again, so those do not mean much. I want the man I married, the man who I know is a good man, to tell me sincerely how sorry he is. I don't expect him to grovel everyday, but I would like to see in his actions that he is sorry (I am starting to). Maybe he cannot admit to himself what he did because then he would be as bad as me.

I am telling you what I need from my point of view. If your W has ever said the same things, why not try to meet this need? It will only make your M better. It is a true need, just as SF is to you. You seem to be judging again, instead of just listening to her. What do you gain by resisting doing it? If you feel it, why can't you show her?

WB and DS-

I think it is nice to have the "other sex" point of view on the whole thing and to know I am not alone in my feelings and my H is like other H. It makes me feel reassured.

I didn't have intercourse with OW. Mrs. Wonk had intercouse about a month after she met OM and about 2-3 weeks after seriously talking with him. Not sure when other "events" happened between them, though. I don't know when it officially became a PA.



All I was saying was that the A helped me to realize that there were some things that I shouldn't wipe under the table anymore. I did not realize the depth of my resentments until the A brought that out of me. I am not saying that I saw myself as being happier with OW but that the A forced me to learn about myself and that the problems in our marriage had become more toxic than I had ever realized.

And with that I totally agree...that's why I come here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just know for my personal situation with while it is similar to both of yours, it's still my situation...I have had to give up alot of my perceptions and expectations...things that I believed I need in order to get past this...and funny when I gave them up - I found they weren't as imporatant as I thought they were...that focusing on the now has helped me WAY more than anything else.

This isn't to be confused with denial, or supressing, because I am very aware of every feeling I have and I don't try to pretend I am not having those feelings...I just redirect. I am not my husband and he is not me - and you know what THANK GOD....i wouldn't want to put up with me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wonk

That is very healthy for you have to realized...sucks that you had to come to these realizations through an EA though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

H said he realized he was trying to replace me and get over me, but in doing that he realized he couldn't replace me, and in the process he was actually replacing himself. He was a different person with OW, and would have had to live a different life with her, and he realized he liked who he is, and who he is has a BIG part of me, as over 8 years we have become who we are through eachother...he would have to give up who he is and become someone else with her and he realized that isn't what he wanted after all...

Huh? Either you see something or you don't. Take your pick but it sure sounds to me like your H can't win. Sounds to me like in his own way he is doing something. It is just not what you feel you want.



Maybe you want him to sound as if he feels as bad as you do. Just because he doesn't express it well doesn't mean he doesn't feel it. You said you see some things. Do you make him feel safe or do you make him feel like he's taking the SAT?

Now you are getting it Wonk <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now take the same things you said to improving, and see if you are doing the same things with your wife <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And tell her to come read this thread - she may feel better too knowing she isn't alone...since Imp and I both had our A's first, just like in your sitch.

WB-

OK, how long did it take you to "decide" to actually take the step to cross over into the PA. How does that timeline compare to your W's?


I agree that is good that you "realized" these things, but I also suspect part of it was fog/re-writing history. I think this because I did the same things. Things that were important to me took on much more importance. Have you read on here and in SAA that is common for WS to re-write marital history? It is part of the script. It does not mean that you did not feel some of these things, but it also was probably being used to protect you from the horrible reality of what you were doing and the pain of what she was doing. If you decide you were actually miserable all those years, then having the A is not so bad and it does not hurt as much that she is having an A. Sorry, WB, anything that you "discover" when cheating, does not hold as much value as when you get back out of fantasy-land and the fog to face reality.

I know my H has done much the same thing. He has re-written so much of our M, I do not even recognize it anymore. I think his valid complaints have reached mammoth proportions because of his A. I hope, at some point, he can see that though we had problems, they are not insurmountable and they are not M-ending. We both have work to do. I hope he will do his and start living in the future.

WB- Sorry, this post is very LB'ing. I cannot answer much right now. The point is I need to see remorse. I rarely ever see it. I have valid fears around this issue. This is a need I have expressed to H that is not being met (and he does not seem to understand it either). Is this true of your sitch too?

Thanks, DS. I think I got it before, I just thought I was coming across differently than I was. I guess I was trying to "set the scene" so Mrs. Wonk would understand that I don't think the same way about SF, etc. as she does but it came across like I was saying something I really didn't intend to say. I have always tried to be very careful to not bring up her history when she's needing to vent about mine. I don't want this to be any different.



Well, Improving didn't like how I said it. So, how would you have said it, DS? I guess my question is how do you even know when to draw the line between being empathetic to what your spouse is trying to say vs. saying, basically, that I gave you what I can give you at the moment and please don't measure me based upon your personal yardstick? I don't want to be offensive or insensitive to her feelings (she likes to remind me with the words: "well you had an affair!". Umm. Yeah. Restating the obvious doesn't help, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) So, with that in mind, how do I respond with the thought that I am showing remorse in my own way. I hear what you are saying but this is what there is? I still get the feeling (as has been the case for our entire marriage) that there is one way of doing/saying something. Hers. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> As a co-dependent, DS, I can imagine that you, like me, would try and try and try to do it that very way. Well, I can't do that anymore.

Improving, I was not trying to be offensive. However, this touched on a sensitive topic in the Wonk household. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My Mrs. says things the same way. And it still confuses me. "I need to see remorse. You had an affair. You don't show any remorse. " Two sentences later, "I see that you are trying to show remorse". Huh? Well, either I am or I am not. Mrs. Wonk tends to lean on the controlling side and I sometimes don't know whether the issue is me or whether or not she will always search for a different way of me saying or doing something just so I have to prove myself to her again.

It's like: "Show remorse. Well, not that remorse. This remorse. Well great. I need more. Yes, I see your trying but I don't see any at all." Rinse, lather, and repeat. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />