Well if when talking about one affair, she brings up - well you did it to, or you had one too...calmly say yes I did and I am very sorry about it, but let's discuss one at a time.

Make a pact at the beginning like Sprint and I did - no comparing. If one of us feels the other is comparing, then we nicely say, honey - that is comparing. Sometimes we can compare no problem as it makes sense, but we respect the boundaries. We made that a deal in the beginning.

At first it was hard for me - but I am getting the hang of it now...and still fail at it too.

Sit down with her and say - okay we both have alot of feelings, lets approach one affair at a time. First I have some questions about yours that I need honest answers to and not comparisons to what I did. When i am done, then it will be your turn and you can ask questions and I wont compare it to your affair. Each is a seperate and sad event.

Showing her how calm you can be may frustrate her at first, but soon she will see how calm can lead to progress. Sprint had to be calm with me too.

ALSO,

She may not do this for you YET, but like many MB people recommend...anytime she brings something up attacking you - resist the urge to compare or say she did it to, or to get defensive. Just say honey, I am so sorry and I love you. Remind her, because if she is like me, she had the affair, but was so grateful you didn't kick her out - you were the one she counted on to get her through this (I know this sounds screwed up since she had the affair, but just explaining my thoughts) and then you abandoned her....sounds silly - but I know my thoughts work that way. Luckily for me, I am 8 months out of my A, and can handle this differently - she is still freshly out...emotions still raging. Patience.

Don't argue with her, give her the info she wants, tell her you are sorry, tell her you love her...and I bet she follows suit, and eventually gives you the info you want, and tells you how sorry she is too.

Be the leader

I have tried to do as you suggested and will continue to do so. I know that I need to do a better job of containing my frustration when she begins to lose control. The conversation does not go as she would expect and then she tries to overcompensate, for a lack of a better term. Then, she becomes - to me- like a railroad engine and I lose my ability to cope. I have learned, and need to be much better I agree, that one does not necessarily lead to the other. I can only control my actions and I need to work on that.

Is she in councelling - I know you said she knows MB - has she visited the forums?

The toughest thing is looking at yourself for changes, easier to blame other people...she may be doing that right now still - having a tough time dealing with herself?

She is welcome to email me if she ever needed to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> candice.louise@gmail.com

Yes. She even posts here on the forums though I don't know who she is, on purpose. That way, she has the ability to post her feelings about us and our M without fearing that something may be misconstrued by me as offensive or something like that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Very cool...

Darn it all - now I am going to wonder who she is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> my insatiable curiousity LOL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, me too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

WB-

I am glad to see you posting here because you certainly present food for thought. I want to present a few things based on what I have read and I would like you to seriously consider them:

1. Your tone appears condescending when you speak of your W. You seem very negative about her.

2. You seem to talk a lot about the things she does "wrong", what do you see that she is changing and doing "right"?? Do you tell her? Can you try to focus on the good that she does instead of the bad? I have not seen you praise her or acknowlege anything she is doing right.

3. What do you need to change to be a better, healthier husband? What are you doing about it?

4. When she tells you how she feels, she is putting her heart on the line; she is sharing with you. This is a chance for you to have a better M with POJA. POJA does not allow for an agreement to be made unless both people are enthusiastic.

5. It appears that you seem to see the worst in what she does. We all want to be acknowledged for the things we do right. I imagine she is no different.

6. Do you initiate discussions about any of these issues and try to negotiate solutions with her? Consider trying to change how you interact with her.

7. Why haven't you talked with your W? It's nice to come here for advice, but what are you doing to make a better M with her today?

8. You say she is measuring you against her yardstick for remorse. Have you truly listened to what she is saying and have you tried to meet her need in this area? Can you POJA the things that you would be comfortable doing?[/b]

9. She might be correcting herself when she says you are not showing "any" remorse and then says she sees you trying. I know I have done this a few times. I realize how negative what I said sounds and I am working on acknowledging what my H is doing (as he has asked me to). So, I will correct myself, and say it more accurately. I am proud of myself for doing this. I hope my H appreciates these efforts as opposed to interpreting it as me being wishy-washy.

10. How many of her requests are based out of the fear and pain your A caused her?

11. How would it hurt you to try to meet some of her needs? What response would you get if you tried to meet the need as opposed to not? It seems like you are concerned with your personal boundaries. That
s why POJA is so nice--noone agrees to anything they do not feel comfortable with.

12. Try looking at the good in her actions. Could there be a more positive way for you to view an action of hers?


Bottom line is you cannot change her and she cannot change you. But, you can control how you relate to each other.

You seem very negative and down on your W. I see a man who is getting irritated with his W on this forum, yet you have not gone to her directly and allowed her to POJA with you to work on these things. How is that fair to her?

Your M will never make it if you do not open your heart and give her a chance. Of course, there are patterns each of you will need to change. It will take time to get it right. Are you willing to be patient or do you assume "some things will never change"? Are you dooming her to fail? And, do you really want her to succeed? Seems like you have a yardstick of your own and she may never be good enough for you.

I have learned the hard way I need to focus on me and what I need to do to be a better person. I do not always get it right, but I am trying. When she sees you changing, she will likely react to that and change too.

How much of what she is feeling and doing is based on her pain and fear from your A? What are you doing to help her not feel that way? I know a lot of my controlling behavior right now is coming from the fear of another D-day and the fear H will not change the things that got us here.

Frankly, WB, reading these posts has really touched a nerve with me because I see my H in them. And, if he feels as negatively as you seem to, I wonder if our M really has a chance. These are patterns ingrained in me for many years. I am not going to change overnight. But, if I am going to do this hard work, I want to do it for me, my H, and my M. It will take time. I am willing to give him that. I have to wonder if he is willing to do the same. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The point I making above to you both Improving and her H and to Wonk about his W, is that it seems to me Wonk is waiting for his W to make the first move, and Improving, you seem to be waiting for you H to do it.

Improving - you want to see genuine remorse, but that may take time, like my H, your H may still be a little in the fog. Remorse will come, but he may never show it to you in the way you NEED it to be shown. If you are expecting to see remorse like you may have shown, then you are placing expectations. Why do I say this? Cause I did the SAME thing. I wanted to see the sorry in my H like I showed him. I realized that may never happen. I learned the fact that he is still here, of COURSE he is feeling remorse. I can hear it when he says I love you. He may not be doing EVERYTHING I would like to meet my needs, but it takes time...and in my own personal growth I have learned, it's not SOLELY about just those needs. I need to be able to be happy on my own too.

In Wonk's posts I see him waiting to see a REASON from his wife. Alot like Improving's sitch, you are basing recovery on this. Wonk - as I said to improving- you may never GET a reason that satisifies your mind. Does this change how you feel about her? You are still there, you came back from your A with your OW whom you say you loved. This means you do love her. So accept that she is there too, and not with her OM, and make that first move too like I said in another post.

IMHO, even though you guys have different sitch's with your spouses, just like mine is different, I see you both holding on to your own expectations, and your own entitlement. Both Sprint and I had to let go of our entitlemenst and accept the differences, and it's making a WORLD of difference.

Was it easy - HECK no - I struggle everyday with it. But it's getting us somewhere instead of leaving us in a cycle.

Just some food for thought.

Well, thanks Improving, I didn't realize that I had come across as such an $ss. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

There is a lot to think about in your post. I do agree that there are times that I need an attitude adjustment. Don't we all sometimes? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Yet, it seems like you have a nack for looking at the negative, as well.



First, you make a judgement about how I feel about Mrs. Wonk in general, based upon one issue that I felt was holding me back. The very reason I was coming here was so I could understand and let go. Also, I did discuss with DS about the co-dependency and what I am learning about myself and how to deal with it.



Well, considering that I was using this post to discuss issues I had, yes, I would focus on some of the bad things. There are plenty of good things, too. Yet I didn't feel like I needed anybody's help with those things.



That seems to be a particularly grandiose judgment.



What makes you think I haven't? It hasn't always been productive. It hasn't always been pleasant. I'm sure that both she and I would like to see that it be done better but neither are we mute on the subject.


Well, how would you address this? There does have to be a balance... how do you know when to draw the line between being empathetic to what your spouse is trying to say vs. saying, basically, that I gave you what I can give you at the moment and please don't measure me based upon your personal yardstick?



That is true. I need to be better about stopping myself and thinking about this. I have tried to be better about this and know that I need to improve. However, being empathetic to her pain and doing things the way she wants them to be done are two different things.



Well, she is not into S&M to my knowledge, so I imagine it wouldn't hurt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Again, you make some pretty large assumptions. Am I meeting all of her needs, probably not. Can I do better? Who couldn't? Yes, I can improve in this realm which is why I was trying to let go of some of my issues so I can open myself up better.



Sure. It goes both ways, too. Also, take this post you made to me. Could there be a more positive way of viewing my actions? I am here trying to understand and talk about what is going on so I can learn and be a better person for my Mrs. and my M.



Both Mrs. Wonk and I should print this out and put it on the refrigerator. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />



You are right about this, Improving. Both Mrs. Wonk and I need to work at being better people so we can be better for each other. She's trying. So am I. We try in different ways. We have different approaches. We go at different speeds. We are different. Yet, saying that she will react to my changing and change too. That's not my responsibility. She's got to change for herself and not because she's waiting for me to do so. I am making the conscious decision to let go of a lot of issues and see things differently. I can't work on her issues for her. I can only work on mine. I am not waiting for her to change her ways before I do so because then no body changes. That is the pattern that got Mrs. Wonk and I here in the first place. I have no desire to do so again. I have found out that it is only self-serving (and thus painful) to base my reactions upon hers. I can choose to be happy. I cannot wait for her to make me so.

DS, any insight? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

DS, you should take this show on the road. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Am I looking for a reason? True, a reason so that I can understand her affair but you and Improving have helped me realize that maybe it just doesn't really matter like I thought it did. I do better knowing how things work so eventually, a reason would probably make me feel better.

Am I basing recovery on this? Well, partly I guess. Not entirely, but I do realize that I am holding a part of myself back. Partly, I was looking for a reason to make sure that she was being honest with me. We ALL lied during affairs. I was pretty darn good at it and I am a loser for it. Yet, Mrs. Wonk has been able to string out her lies to the point I am wondering if there is something else that she won't tell me because it will be the final thing that pushes me out the door. So yes, I do wait for the door to close, I guess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Do I need to get past that? Yes. Will it take some time? Sure will. But I will get there and in my own pace, too. I think a lot of the problem is we have become stubborn after years of resentment and now Mrs. Wonk and I are doing quite the dance. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Sorry took me so long to post back - got on a phone call - then had to run away from the call cause Daughter cut herself and Son was sick...when it rains it pours! lol

Now from what I understand - mrs wonk's A was before yours. If she is remorseful and has really looked at her ways, she may be making those changes as we speak. I know personally it was so frustrating as I knew I was changing, but H couldn't see it as he was still so blinded by questions and stumps on my A. But patience paid off and now he sees those changes in me.

I see you very focused on her reasons for the A - could it be she is changing, but because you are focused on the A so much you haven't seen it yet? At the same time, because I don't know Mrs. Wonk, if she hasn't done some soul searching, then she may not have changed at all - but she sounds alot like me, so I am assuming maybe her recovery may be alot like mine too...once again though - just an assumption.

I wanted to understand my H so badly...but then a good friend on here pointed out to me - he is there right now and you know he loves you, does it REALLY matter how he got back to where he is, does it really matter what he did while he had the A? It may matter to him one day, but does it change your goal? And I thought REALLY hard on this, and I realized, it doesn't matter...because him being here now is what REALLY matters to me.


If you are truely a CA, Co-dependent, is it maybe that you aren't asking the questions you need to have answered in a clear manner in that EXACT fear? That you are afraid an answer will push you out the door? You know she had an EA, PA, and you trust it is done...is there something more that would cause you to walk out the door? A certain detail that pushes your limits? Cause in all honesty - it was a PA/EA you know this, and you are still there. If you are getting a feeling she isn't telling you everything, could it be she doesn't want to hurt you?

I know myself as a CA/co-dependent, I wouldn't ask the things I needed to be asking for fear of the response. Could it be you holding back the answers? This once again is just an assumption.

The stubborness after years of resentment you have to get over <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It has no place in your new marriage...and you have to look it that way - you can't go back to the old marriage, it will be changed, but it can be better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WB-

I do not think you are an a$$. I was truly trying to help you be more positive about your W and focus on the good. I am hurting a lot in my own sitch and your posts hit a little too close to home. I re-read what I wrote, and the tone definitely needs work. For that, I apologize.

I still think talking to Mrs. Wonk and discussing your concerns would be the most helpful. She cannot answer these questions if she is not given the chance.

Basically, you need to decide if you need the answer about her "reason". If so, then you should ask her because R will be hindered if you don't. That is why I suggested talking to her about this. I like DS' point of view that the details do not really matter. The As happened and cannot be undone. Is knowing this detail truly going to help you R? If so, then I feel you owe it to your W to give her the chance to answer the questions you have. I know there are many times a question about his A will pop in my head, but I choose not to ask it because it will not help me recover. Only you can answer this about the questions..it is a very personal thing for each BS.





Then negotiate what you can and are willing to do. She is expressing a need (no less important than your need for SF). She is asking you to meet it. That does not mean you have to be a doormat. Negotiate/POJA--> What are you willing to do? Has she told you why she needs to see remorse? I suspect it all goes back to her fears around your A. Remorse implies learning/growth. Growth makes it less likely for you to back to OW.




Wowww, WB <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
You missed my point altogether. My point is the same as yours. If you change, she will likely respond in a positive way to your changes. So, if you approach her respectfully, she will likely do the same. If you approach her with LBs, she may respond in turn. Noone lives in a vacuum and we do affect each other. So, we are really saying the same thing. You work on you and she should work on her. (At the same time, you should both work on the M.) The benefit of all this is that each of you is changing for the better and that is likely to be noticed and appreciated by your S. And, if it is, the result is you each are more inclined to meet ENs, etc. Seems like you both may have gotten into a negative cycle (LBing/blaming/expecting) I was suggesting doing the opposite and getting into a positive cycle and reaping the rewards--maybe DS says it better than I. Anyway, that was all I was saying <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

How are you doing today Wonk

Make any progress last night?

No. I'm just trying to make sure my head is on straight at the moment. I've spent a lot of time in the last couple of weeks learning about foregiveness and making sure that there was nothing on my "list of issues" that were things that had more to do with my own issues rather than her. Or, more basically, were there some things for which I was making a mountain out of a molehill? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And you know what, I am just tired. I'm tired of thinking about this stuff every minute of every day. What I wouldn't do for my own deserted island right about now... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LOL

Well - it's a smart thing to do - to make sure you head is in the good place before you talk. Having negative thoughts can come across when you talk and make the conversation go negative <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And it' SO easy to make mountains out of a molehill - gotta look at the positives all the time to keep those negatives as molehills.

Have you read Torn Asunder? It's another really good affair book that has some good help in it. For me along with SAA and HN/HN it was one of the main books I re-read alot.

I posted this to Sally a few days ago from that book


For the BS: Denial of Anger vs Genuine Forgiveness

Denial of Anger is:

- Unawareness of feelings
- No vacillations in attitude
- No vulerability with mate
- Overly predictable relationship, with the tendancy to gut it out, to "stay comitted" (ie: simply married) without much joy
- No change in relationship style
- Focusing on projects outside the self
- Acting out feelings, often injuring self and mate; or supressing feelings
- Nuturance received exclusively outside the marriage; from friends, children, job
- Emotional heaviness; nothing is as good as anticipated
- Never beeing thankful for the fallout of the affair
- Refusal to talk about the affair with others who could benefit - intense feelings of shame
- Less respect than ever for the WS; carries cloaked disdain for him/her
- Mental accusations of multiple infidelities
- Continually placing sole responsibility for condition of the marriage on infidel
- Victimized feelings ("one down") or supoerior feelings ("one up")

Genuine Forgiveness is:

- Acute awareness of all feelings
- Cylical/seasonal vacillation in attitude
- Complete vulerability, at times afraid of the risk at stake
- Unpredicability at times - the normal roller coaster ride of a healthy marriage
- Many changes, some of which are quite frightening
- Focusing on the self and the marriage relationship
- Ability to talk about feelings with mate
- Beginning to receive nuturance from mate
- Freedom, exhileration, feeling unbelievably alive at times
- Gratefulness for the changes the affair has brought into the marriage and into the WS's life
- Ability to discuss the affair relatively pain-free, given appropriate processing and the passage of some time
- Greater appreciation developing for mate
- Healthy, biblical sexuality, children benefit from new levels of family intimacy
- Growing awareness of his/her own shortcomings that contributed to the affair, shared responsibility
- Healthy sense of wholeness without comparing self to WS - growing mutual self-respect.

WB-

Olive branch extended...

I realized after re-reading my posts that I was not doing a very good job of expressing my points in a healthy way (my H could tell you that working on my tone is on my Work-In-Progress list <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />) I knew what I wanted to say, but it got lost in the translation. Anyway, I recognize that your sitch hit too close to home for me and my advice was laced with the pain from my own situation and was not as helpful as it could be. Underneath my tone, there are things that I think could truly help you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> However, I am sorry that my tone made it difficult to see those things.

I know how hard it is to reach out and share your feelings with other people and feel attacked. I truly was trying to help, but I am not sure that I did, so I will go on my merry way and leave the sage advice to DS.

Hearing feelings from the BH's point of view helped me a lot. I wish you luck in your M and hope that you and Mrs. Wonk get back on track and build the M you want.

Improving <----a bit too zealous for her own good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I understand, Improving, I understand. I do appreciate your advice, suggestions, and point of view, however. Thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

So how did the weekend go?

Improving - since your last post I figure you wont post, but how bout you Wonk?

My weekend was pretty good - ever day Sprint and I make more and more progress - we enjoyed eachothers company all weekend, had company over, watched some movies and reminded eachother how much we love eachother!!!

Hey Dorry! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Weekend went fairly well. Had its ups and downs, so to speak. We did some light talking, which helped a bit. I have also done so work convincing myself to just let some of this stuff go. I can't change it. Neither can she.

I guess there are times when I need to make sure that I don't need an attitude adjustment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Along this vein, are there issues that Sprint is just not able to let go, for one reason or another? I have been journaling my thoughts for quite a few months now, and I am going through some of the stuff I wrote down and seeing what remains a big deal to me and that still needs to be talked about or worked through...just trying to see the perspective of someone else who has been in similar shoes.

Thanks!