Maybe not to your marriage .... maybe the recipient of your flirting is on shakey grounds in their marriage .... see the danger/risk there?

This makes me sad, Pep.

Giving others a little admiration, a little compasion will never be an innocent thing again.

My WH affair has changed me forever.

My WH is a flirt and became more so after OW flirted back. It is what caused their EA. I hope it was only an EA. It is the one thing I will not tolerate anymore from him. I am not a flirt can be choose not to be. If I flirt it is with my H. Not OM.

LT, what you call flirting is what I call harmless joking and bantering. I joke around with my co-workers all the time. But like you, I say the same things to women as I do men. There are no sexual overtones to it. I act the same way to their wives and they all like me! So, I think you are right, we just have different definitions of flirting.

We do have one lady employee, an office person, who DOES flirt with the guys and you should hear how they trash her behind her back! I have never heard them talk that way about a lady. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

It crosses the marriage boundary when it bothers the spouse.

Hello Everyone!

I am a couple days 'new' to these boards and thought I would add my 2 cents.

If one person in a marriage wants to flirt and their spouse finds it appalling, there is a REASON. My guess is the reasons can be either low self-esteem, insecurity in the marriage and/or mistrust. As far as my marraige goes, neither of us flirt. However, I have once seen a woman flirt with my husband (who she hadn't seen in a while) and told him (in front of me) that he "looked like a porn star!" Sure it came as a surprise (as she looked directly at ME when she said it) but I just blew it off.

We need to realize that firstly, we cannot control OTHER PEOPPLE'S actions - meaning, if they wanna flirt with your husband/wife then that's exactly what they'll do. The main thing to consider here (and the only thing that should matter) is how your spouse REACTS to the flirting. In that scenario I mentioned earlier, my husband's reaction was NOTHING - he did and said absolutely nothing, which to me, is exactly what I would have done. I could sense that she was a bit disappointed because she didn't get a 'raise' out of him like she was obviously searching for. He totally knocked her and it on the head!

Now - for those of you who has a WS, I guess you would see things through different eyes (just trying to understand here.) As a WW myself (in 1st marriage) I can not see how people can put ungodly limitations on their partners/spouses because of a past A. To me, we are human, and yes, we will look at other beautiful people. This sort of scenario reminds me of a high school couple I once knew (yes HIGH SCHOOL) The GF had total control over her BF. So much so that he was NOT allowed to look at other girls walking down the halls or at Football Pep Rallies (cheerleaders). She MADE (well insisted) that he put his nose in a book/magazine during the whole rally (which was usually 1 1/2 hours long). Mind you, even though he was stupid for agreeing to such terms, he did absolutely NOTHING to deserve it. I found out later it was based on my friendship with him (we were best friends).

It's bad enough that the WS is living through hell (by their own hand) but to have these sorts of 'conditions' put on them just seems a bit cruel in my eyes. Tit for tat is not a way to get your spouse back. (ie "you cheated, therefore you must suffer the consequences as i did") They would end up spending the REST of their lives trying to fix something that will probably never TRULY be fixed.

These are just my 2 cents. PLEASE know that I had NO intention of offending anyone. I'm just trying to get a better grasp as to why people make such high demands on someone who has been unfaithful. I think people can find other ways to sort the problem. How? I have no idea, but hey, that's what marriage counsellors are for!

Take Care and God Bless!

Sincerely,
Anne in Australia

Anne??? What the hell are you talking about?

"high demands" ????

"conditions" that are "cruel"

.... huh?

Hi Pep!

I'm sorry if I confused you! I had an idea I would probably be misunderstood for making those sorts of comments, but it was made honestly and from the heart.

IMHO - regardless of a WS's past descretions, the fact of the matter is WE are still human beings. The thought of having to put such strong conditions on a WS just doesn't seem to justify the 'crime'. What DOES is the fact that firstly, the WS shows HONEST remorse and secondly, if the BS is in agreement, they both seek professional counselling. It's not only the BS that is hurting and searching for 'all the answers', the WS is also doing the same. And yes Pep, I think it IS a 'high demand' to expect someone to never look at and/or talk/be friends with another female/male again! (which, in effect, is what I read in an earlier post) I have read most of these posts and found it a bit disheartening that even a BS would feel 'comfortable' asking their WS to commit to such conditions. Please remember I am talking about 'flirting' here.

I am not asking for anyone to 'sympathize' with a WS, I am just stating a different point of view. One that I thought would be worthy of a good 'discussion'.

I am not trying to make WS's sound as if they've done nothing wrong, but as 'human beings' we should try to help each other 'heal', not make the situation more uncomfortable then it already is.

If a spouse has a problem with their partner's actions, then it's up to them to mention it. If it falls on deaf ears (ie the spouse keeps on flirting) then counselling should be sought. Whilst I may not agree with 'flirting' (I never said it was 'ok') I just think that sometimes even a BS can go over 'the mark.'

I am currently 8 years in recovery (still not fully recovered) from my A on the 1st H, and have had plenty of time to seriously think about my actions and the pain it has caused. If people are going to try and make their marriage work, it's better to do it by finding ways to 'fall in love' again, then to put conditions on a WS who probably (well is) as vulnerable and hurt as their spouse.

I apologize Pep if I have offended and/or confused you. No one says you have to agree with me, I just want to understand the logic behind the 'recovery' process and the conditions. When is it considered that a spouse is asking for 'too much?' And when do you consider yourselves to be 'fully - recovered?'

Just trying to understand.

Sincerely,
Anne in Australia


WW - 33 (ME)
BEXH - 27
DDAY - sometime 8 years ago
STATUS: Divorced on amicable grounds - still friends.

On which thread(s) is these post(s) you are talking about? I would like to read it myself to get my own personal interpretations of it... I can't recall that any BS on these boards ever said that their spouses can't interact with a member of the opposite sex if it is done in an appropriate way... And as far as friendships with the opposite sex goes - in my opinion you can have this type of friendships only if the opposite sex person is a friend of both spouses AND the marriage, and where both spouses can spend time with the person. A one-sided close opposite sex friendship (where the spouse is not part of the friendship) IS a danger to a marriage and it IS inappropriate to spend time (communication, recreational time etc.) alone with such a friend all the time... And this is especially true if the person was wayward and have shown a weakness towards the opposite sex... It's the FWS's responsibility to protect him/herself against their own weaknesses and stay away from such friendships. Remember, most A's initially start off as friendships and/or 'innocent' interactions with the opposite sex. I know what I'm talking about because I have been there myself.

Blessings,
Suzet

I think it IS a 'high demand' to expect someone to never look at and/or talk/be friends with another female/male again!

I agree with Suzet. Looking at and being friend with the oppsite sex is fine, within the comfort boundaries of their spouse.

Friendship & flirting led to my Squids affair. She understands that such is hurtful to me an so conducts her other sex relationships transparently and without innuendo or intimacy now.

I do the same.

The conditions of behaviour a BS will accept from a FWS is entirely a matter for them both to POJA.

Anything POJAed is not cruel or harsh.

And .... asking the BS to be "comfortable" with WS's flirting with the opposite sex ~after~ an affair that involved flirting may not be a reasonable expectation. In my opinion.


.... well .... I donno .... counseling maybe .... I personally think boundaries is the issue here. Marriage needs healthy boundaries in order to keep both spouses safe. Counselors may be necessary if someone has no idea how to set boundaries .... but once someone recognizes a need for boundaries .... then it is up to the marriage partners to POJA boundaries. (when the affair is over ... this is much easier to POJA)


And who sets the mark of the BS's comfort level? The WS? ..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


We are more than 9 years recovered. I wonder why you are not fully recovered after 8 years..... why the long time line? This is a real question .... not at all superficial. There may be a very good explaination why this has been such a difficult journey for you.... I think you are NOT talking about healing your current M .... but about your personal healing, correct?


And, it's the "vulnerable" part we worry about when it comes to flirting you understand. The applies to both BS and WS and ~any married person~ who has not been touched by infidelity. It's our ignored vulnerabilities that cause us to fall.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> NO apologies !!! We are having a discussion .... and a difference of opinion is stimulating. No cause to apologize <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

PS....

*Suzet* said just about everything else I wanted to say ... so thanks *S*

You're welcome Pep! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Another thing...

Since the topic of this thread is about flirting, below is an extraction from an article on emotional infidelity. It is one of the suggestions on how to keep temptation at arms length and to help 'affair-proof' a marriage:

* Don't flirt. ''That is how affairs start,'' says Bonnie Eaker Weil, whose Web site, www.makeupdontbreakup .com, features tips for preventing infidelity. ''Flirting is not part of an innocent friendship. If you think there might be a problem with someone you flirt with, there probably is a problem.''

Here is the full article.

Excellent posts, Suzet! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just throwing my $.02 in the pot as well...

I'm married to yet another of those "harmless flirts". He's never one to make sexual innuendos or offer "invitations", he's the type of flirt that is openly affectionate (albeit with both sexes, he hugs just as many of our guy friends as he does the girls) and very generous with compliments. When someone jokingly called him a flirt in the past, he'd be confused as to how anything he was doing was labeled as "flirting". No one has ever taken anything he's done or said to mean anything "harmful". He's always just been that "sweet guy with a heart of gold".

Until...

He found someone who was not only receptive to his compliments and affection, to some degree she depended on them. When she started returning flirtation for flirtation, the lines not only got crossed, they got erased! It was a time bomb waiting to be ignited, all it took was the *right* person with the *right* responses, and what happened was more or less an explosion of emotion.

So where do I stand on his "harmless" flirting now? It bothers me. No, it nauseates me. It attacks the very core of our marriage. It will no longer be tolerated. Plain and simple. How do we judge what is flirting and what isn't? ME--I'm the barometer. If it makes me uncomfortable, knowing how much trouble it got him into, then it's wrong. No questions asked, no argument. If it's a threat to me, it's a threat to half of our marriage, and that's a chance we just can't take.

Interesting ... today's topic on radio talk show "Focus On The Family"---> marriage hedges ... and there seems to be a gender difference between male and female ability to recognize and perceive what is and what is NOT appropriate interaction ie; flirting.

www.family.org/fmedia/broadcast/a0036946.cfm

Suzet - The post I am referring to is on Page 1 from MelodyLane as follows:

"He should have no relationships with other females and he most certainly should not be confiding in other females. That is a recipe for disaster and is just asking for trouble."

OK, so she said "no relationships" - still to ME is a 'high demand.' What do you do about female/male work collegues? Avoid them? What if your spouse's partner at work is female/male? Ask them to quit their job? Just seems a bit 'over the top' to say "NO relationships" because to me, this is humanly impossible. Why not ask our spouses to go bury their heads in the sand? (Same thing - in my eyes)

To put 'restrictions' on a marriage where one has had a A is NOT going to prevent another A from happening unfortunately. They will do it regardless, IF this is where their heart's are at.

As for the issue of flirting - the question the person who is DOING the flirting should ask themselves "How would I feel if I witnessed my spouse/partner acting this way with somoene of the opposite sex?" If it would hurt them, then you can back it in it WILL hurt you. Maybe that's why people do it without thinking (well they are doing it because they AREN'T thinking). If a married man/woman has to go to someone of the opposite sex for admiration and to 'look good in their eyes', something is definitely wrong. If this was my husband (doing the flirting) I would honestly have to ask myself "Is there something I am doing/not doing that is contributing to this behavior?" After a hard look at myself, if it came down to him needing an 'ego boost', then I would have to pose a few questions to him. (ie "What is it about flirting that you get that you cannot get from me?", etc)

However, I am in total agreement with you Suzet about having a person of the opposite sex being friends with BOTH husband/wife. Still - if they were in the same room together alone, as a married woman, I shouldn't have any problems with it (even if HE had a A in the past) WHY? Well if he's genuine in his reconciliation with me, then I should at least give him the benefit of the doubt. If he falters AGAIN, then at least I would know him for who he truly is. Putting restrictions/limitations on spouses is NOT the answer. Letting them 'go' (even after an A) will only prove to you (once and for all) whether or not they are sincere. If you are going to try to make a marriage work after an A, you should at least give them room to move (or to hang themselves, whichever they decide to do).

I am speaking as a WS myself (from my 1st marriage) and yes, while I was having my EN's met from someone online, I knew if it was my EX H doing the same thing, I would've been hurt. Still, I chose 'not to think' because there were a lot of issues in our marriage and I guess in my heart I knew it was over before we even 'walked down the isle.' (WHY I got married - I guess I was young at the time) The reasons for not wanting to work it out (even though MY EX wanted to reconcile) is because I just don't believe in marriage after infidelity (that's just MY personal opinion - and we know about opinions!) *wink*

Now today, I am happily married (4 years - going strong) and I have learned A LOT from my previous marriage which has helped me considerably. My current husband and I put NO limitations on each other, we simply do things because 'we want to.' The best thing that has helped us is by allowing (and most of all, trusting) each other to be 'ourselves.'

Flirting (if it isn't already) should be one of the "Love Busters" because it DOES take away from the Love Bank. There are REASONS for it and it's not always something as simple as someone needing 'an ego boost.' Both husband/wife should take a long hard look at themselves to see how and why this sort of behavior happens.

And finally - I'd like to know if anyone can 'define' flirting, in regards to what exactly is CONSIDERED flirting? Could a guy looking, making eye contact and smiling at a beautiful woman be considered 'flirting?' What exactly is it besides verbal and physical communcation? Words are just that "WORDS" and if my spouse thought LESS of me enough to make sexual remarks to another woman, I would have to find out why.

P/S PEP - sorry I didn't get to answer your questions in your previous post as I selfishly went on a 'tangent'. I will address them in my next post.

Take Care and God Bless!

Sincerely,
Anne in Australia

Anne, you are taking my point out of context in order to twist my meaning to make your point. There is a huge difference between a professional acquaintence and a personal relationship at work. If you read my comment in context you can very well see that we are talking about personal relationships at work. I was responding to this comment:


BH was talking about - not innocent working relationships - but personal relationships with female coworkers to whom the WS confides personal information about his marriage. This is how his affair started and this is how workplace affairs commonly start. That is very inappropriate in a marriage.

So, please don't take my comments out of context to bastardize my point; it is disingenious and very offensive.

Anne wrote:


But the WS would not be "restricted." To flirt or not to flirt is a personal choice. And to accept a spouse who flirts is also a personal choice. Any "restrictions" would be self imposed. I would add that a WS who is serious about affair-proofing their marriage would not WANT to bring flirting into their marriage. But a spouse does not have the power to "restrict" the other. We are not talking about teenagers here, but free adults.

What you call "restrictions", others call "boundaries." For example, a WS who flirts with co-workers is endangering my sense of safety and violating my boundaries by treating me with disrespect. I would not feel safe in a marriage where my spouse flirts, especially one that had been tainted with an affair, so I would not be interested in keeping such a spouse. But it would be up to the WS to decide if he/she wanted to knock it off in order to accommodate me. Again, it is a choice and not a "restriction."