Yup, you got it Susan.

Now I realize that knowing what is going on or driving the fears seems natural, but presumably in the explanation of the fears the driving issues have been expressed.

Nothing is quite as clean as I have expressed but the bottom line is exactly as you said. Power means protection of yourself, your spouse, and your marriage, and often protecting the spouse leads to protecting everything else.

At least that is how I am thinking at the moment. I am waiting for someone to say "yeah JL, BUT have you considered..." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

There are layers of internal power, JL. When I was a kid of 25, I thought I knew power. Same as when I was 30 and 35. Each of those definitions is different, though.

And each of us -can- be powerful. In professional situations, there is almost nothing that can trigger a fight-or-flight reflex in me anymore. I am powerful there because even in the face of raving lunacy (not quite as literal as what Pep deals with, but not that far away either), I am neither frightened nor cowed.

I am also thoughtful and intently careful in my interactions. Most people, most of the time, feel safe with me.

And more important than those, I have learned to say no. Not a screaming ranting raving "NO!!!" but a "No, that doesn't work for me." And I can't be bullied or pushed or shoved or coerced away from that position. I -can- be negotiated away from it, or shown that my position is not the wisest. I'm happy to have a rational dialogue about almost anything. I just don't do emotional "I'll make you feel bad until you give" attempts to make me change.

That, too, is powerful.

And it's all based, JL, on my ability to regulate my emotions. I can't do any of that stuff when there's a saber-tooth tiger out to get me. Then I'm a cave girl just like all the other cave girls.

There is also the fact that power, for me, includes times when I am intensely and painfully sad, or lonely, or frightened. Then, being powerful includes accepting those emotions utterly and recognizing that they are port of me, not something to be shoved away and not dealt with. Many people (more men than women, but many women as well) would prefer to stuff their unpleasant emotions into a trash heap rather than deal with them. I find that mine won't stay in the trash heap. So I deal with them.

So -- I can say, with great sadness, that there are things that I feel broken about. That I feel that I may never heal from. That still hurt me a very great deal.

This part addresses your comment: More blunt, more to the point, more "let's get this thing done". Yup, more male.

I think that male power is fantastic for men. It's not what I aspire to (any more), though. The most powerful thing a woman can do is being a mother. And there's not much that's blunt and to the point about teaching a kid to use the potty instead of the rug. Well. There is. But it takes a whole lot of repetition and reminders and time.

(Can you guess where my daughter is in her developmental journey these day? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Power, in men and in women, takes being centered. In all honesty, the only truly powerful men I've ever met were ones who didn't allow their emotions or their intellects to rule the whole self. And truly powerful people -- whether men or women -- are hard to find.

Would you consider the Dalai Lama powerful? Is he more or less powerful than the Pope? How about the President?

I would also say that in the case where one person's actions have aroused another person's fears, there is work to be done on both sides.

The frightened person has their emotional response to work through, and growing to do in the process of understanding where it came from and regulating it.

The person who took the action has their actions to work through, and growing to do in the process of understanding whether those actions are ethical or not, and regulating them accordingly.

I am responsible, yes, for not doing things that harm my spouse. I am NOT responsible for every drib and drab of insecurity in his lovely heart.

It all comes down to validating his feelings. It does not matter if they are right or if they are wrong. If he came to me and expressed them, I need to respect them.

Saying that he is wrong to feel that way decreases our POWER because eventually he will stop coming to me and stop expressing his feelings because I don't validate them anyway.

It sounds so simple, but is something I really have to work at and practice every day.

It is much easier and more fun to think I am RIGHT and to try to explain my position...

Than to just stop and LISTEN to him and know that he is feeling it for a reason and trying to changes his mind probably won't change his feelings (at least not in a positive way.)

Power is not always being right and fighting for it. Power is in being fair.

That's one thing I love about Pep ~ my Pepism (love ya Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />) She discusses for the sake of learning, not just because she has something to offer (even though she does). She listens...and there are times I see her say "I was wrong" or "thank you for pointing that out". Because of a lack of confidence, I think many people run away before they learn the lesson she may have in her point.

(Have I rambled or what? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />)

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Got to get back to work (avoiding finishing a proposal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), but JustJ this is what I am looking for. Thanks alot. I hope to from others. This issue of power is a subtle one and I would like to see more discussion of it.

JustJ, just a hint. They will basically train themselves when they are ready. Before the only person getting trained is the parent. Been there done that, and got the mop to prove it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh, and you are a pretty special person so never discount that, because there is power in that as well.

God Bless,

JL

If.....you have power, but don't know it, do you really have it?

I watch people a lot, It's interresting. Power/lack of power is part of it.

Many think they have it that don't. Many could have it, if they but realized their talents.

Part of being here for me, is helping others realize what they have, and what they don't have.

Another part is learning........ thanks everyone.

JL, I often assume you know how good you are. You have talent, you use it so well. I have learned much.

SS

Susan,

Yes, this is what I am talking about it is very subtle. Then SS came along and asked "if you have power but don't use it, do you have it? Nasty of him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> to ask this, but so right on.

I think a lot of the problems I see on this board in these marriages is about using, misusing, and failing to use power vested in each of us via our marriages. Look at the needs questionaire, it is about seeing where we have the power to help our spouse. It is about seeing where we don't have power and need help. It is about communications of that there is no doubt, but as Susan said it is often about listening. Not the normal exercise in power one thinks about is it??

AS you can see, I am struggling with how to articulate to some posters how to deal with their husbands, when clearly they do NOT recognize the power they have or how to exercise it. Would LISTENING by high on anyones list? Yet, Susan realizes it. SS comes back and asks "well you got it, but don't use it, so do ya got it or not?" Interesting question, do you?

Must go really must get back to proposal writing, but will you all keep this going for awhile, I am learning a lot and I enjoy learning alot, plus sometimes it means I get something right.

God Bless,

JL

JL, pretty much for the first time ever, I don't understand what you mean. Perhaps you could give us an example?

A man might genuinely feel deeply concerned about something, and want his wife to change something she is doing; but what if his need is coming from a flawed place and is unreasonable? For example (and this is very close to home), what if the man feels unsettled by his wife's show-offiness and lack of wifely 'softness', and asks her to moderate her attitude - when what is really the problem is that he wants to fit her into a template shaped like his mother - fluffy, unassertive and uncompetitive? How does the woman manifest her 'power' in this situation without quite a lot of negotiation and exploration?

I suspect that's not the kind of situation you mean, but I would be grateful if you could enlighten me!

TogetherAlone

me too

If you have power and do not "know" it, do you "really" have it?

I think no

there is potential until there is action

We may have gotten so far from Mimi's lightbulb that we left her in the dark. Anyone seen Mimi? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And I'd like to discuss more in depth Pep's biofeedback. Interesting.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pep

Perhaps this is a good place to have a discussion about courage and power - you show so much of both, yet I really understand those posters who find it difficult to fight at all.

In the past three years, I have been stunned by the number of people who have told me I am 'strong' - H's addiction IC, my IC, our MC, and my kids. At first, I thought that the professionals were actually using the word as a euphemism for 'bossy and opinionated', but I gradually realised that they were talking about courage, strength of principle and determination. The shock for me came from my sense of absolute powerlessness! I seem to be the only person on the planet who does not see me as 'strong'.

To me, I am someone who struggles to tolerate any kind of 'difficult' personal interaction. Any kind of transaction where I need to pit my will and desires against someone else's, sends my mind and body into a panic attack. I have vomited before making even a mildly uncomfortable phone call, and sometimes make calls with tears streaming down my face. I have no desire to assert my will against another's - I would rather give in every time. I can assert myself with my children because I know I have to - for their sake - but with H and other adults I have huge difficulty going 'against' in any way. So I see myself as a wimp.

Why am I like that? The reason doesn't take much looking for. I was the only child of an intensely nervy, domineering mother, who would not tolerate the least dissent or discomfort in her immediate family. Her rages and lashing out, interspersed with moments of good humour and being 'nice', reduced the whole family to pulp - she scared and controlled not only me and my father, but her own parents and sister. I grew accustomed, when she detected the merest sniff of 'cheek', to being pinned to a wall and punched and had her screaming "Slut! You nasty SLUT!" at me from point-blank range. She character-asassinated every family member, and reacted to the mildest self-defence with towering rages and physical attacks.

These days, she would have been visited by the social services and 'educated', but in those days, what families did behind closed doors was their own business.

What she did was to build into me the sense that any self-assertion was essentially suicide. As an adult, I intellectually know that's not true, but it's enormously difficult to convince my body, and all the circuits of my brain that have had fear of my mother burned into them pretty much since birth.

For the last three years I have been working hard to MAKE myself go into the uncomfortable places, to hold onto belief in my own rights and needs, and to stick with that rather than back down to that safe familiar place where I am no threat to anyone. But it doesn't get easier; I am still sick to my stomach if I have to confront H on anything where he is likely to get angry and loud. Anger and loudness awaken all those childhood terrors, and it takes every shred of courage I have to stick with my position.

I think mine may be an extreme case, but I feel deep compassion for those who have been brutalised into fear of self-assertion. For many, standing up to someone may feel like facing death. Survival instincts may tell them to back down, play nice, don't rock the boat...rather than to strap on the heavy weapons and learn how to fight. I believe those people have to be encouraged to stick with the awful feelings of terror and fear that come with standing up for themselves - they need their hands held like small children facing monsters under the bed. Of course, they must be encouraged onwards, towards the monsters, but the need for extra patience must be heeded.

And sometimes they simply can't make it.

TogetherAlone

Power is knowing what is needed and doing it.

Often it is not easy to have power, but it is necessarry. Very often, it is not even something we desire.

SS

I grew up with a smiliar situation (mom).

I have overcome some of it. There is much more work to be done.

It feels as if we have no power with them, so even as adults we want to take flight. It carries over into all other relationships.

I do understand what you are saying.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hmmmm....very interesting!

I have always found powerful men attractive. The best are the ones who have personal power, KNOW they have power, but don't necessarily overtly use it very often.

They have the insight to hang onto their vulnerability, yet at the same time have personal power.

One person in particular feels exactly the way SS describes

"Often it is not easy to have power, but it is necessarry. Very often, it is not even something we desire." He has to practice toning it down because people are affected whether it's intended or not.

CSue, I'd like to meet that man. A separate discussion, that.

Here's an interesting thing. We talk about personal power and about where it comes from. And yet, it takes very little to make us feel bad.

An executive assistant left our company last week. She left something of a mess behind her. She took the boss's extraordinarily messy office and a few articles from the Internet and decided that he has obsessive-compulsive personality disorder. And then convinced our HR Director of it, who has in turn decided that the boss needs psychiatric help or the entire company is going to fall apart.

It created a huge amount of worry amongst the senior staff. When the boss returned from his vacation (which started just before she left), we started to get a slightly different picture. About half of what she said was not true. Hyperbole, basically.

And it turns out that she also decided to be very critical of me, as well, saying that I'm the most condescending person that she has ever worked with.

Now, I must admit that I get downright abrupt when I'm frustrated with the performance of a colleague. But the most condescending ever? Mm. This is based, so far as I can determine, on one interaction that went poorly, and on one request that I made to her that she resented.

So who is powerful here? Me, for being condescending? Me, for accepting the criticism (it absolutely has a grain of truth in it)? Our HR Director for taking this information and demanding a whole lot of action from various people?

Or is it my boss, who has taken all of this in calm stride, admitted his own imperfections, reviewed what he thought was accurate and what he thought was not, did his best to calm our HR Director (and is continuing to do so), and is generally doing what he can to reverse what he sees as more immediate problem -- the sudden and pretty severe disagreements and conflict between his senior staff members?

So far, I'm thinking that the boss is by far the most powerful. He calmed me down, calmed the HR Director down, and generally is making the whole thing better -- while addressing the real problems that have been identified.

Now if I could just figure out how to stop being condescending when I'm frustrated....

Wow Just J!

Very interesting story about your boss. To remain calm in that kind of storm, and take responsibility for his imperfections, and disregard the rest not taking it personally is admirable.

Glad to hear that executive assistant is gone...people like her need to come with a warning label!

Regarding your frustration; I'm no expert, but I wonder if being more aware of the frustration earlier will enable you to talk with the person you're frustrated with about BEING frustrated with them, before the condeming attitude comes across. Along the lines of "look I'm frustrated, I own the feelings - they are mine, can we talk about why this is, so we can get beyone it?

What I'm trying to say is it comes across as not blaming someone else for your feelings - yet letting them know the part they play in the situation. Especially if the person you're dealing with is passive agressive....they can be enormously frustrating!!

Hi All:

I was busy yesterday afternoon and look at what I missed.

Just Learning:

I first want to respond to you. You've helped me with another realization here. Somebody on here mentioned this to me before and now it's coming back to this middle-aged brain. Major problem between H and I prior to the A: POWER STRUGGLES...

He comes to me just as you as said, JL.. The encounter below, as you describe, happens quite often, in fact:




He NOW says: "I'm just trying to help" and I hear: , just as you say, "I'm not trying to be controlling". IN THE PAST: He would go ahead and give his ORDER/DEMAND then I would BLAST him or IGNORE him.

NOW: Are you saying that we are evidencing our RELATIONSHIP POWER in other ways, using other options? He expresses his anxiety/discontent/concern. I don't automatically assume that he is attempting to control me. I listen and then respond rather than doing FIGHT OR FLIGHT.... We both feel respected and appreciated...

A second issue this brings up is WHY THE POWER STRUGGLES? I believe that part of the A was my H's FLIGHT from these. He wanted to escape into a fantasy world himself of not having to deal with conflict. OW went along with everything he said. We know the problems with that... including that she couldn't maintain this 24/7.

Does it have anything to do with the both of us being POWERFUL PERSONALITIES? I realize that there is a certain MAGNETISM about both of us. People notice us when we enter rooms. People look up and listen when we talk. I was noticing this with us at the gym yesterday. H could hardly exercise, two acquaintances were crowded around him. They were both attending to him, laughing at what he was saying... With me at the gym, I have to keep from making eye contact with folks and pretend to be attentively listening to my MP3 to avoid folks engaging me in conversation? What is this? PERSONAL POWER/MAGNETISM? What am I speaking about HERE????

To be continued.....

PEP:

As a reminder, you said:



I've been thinking/speaking this morning about THE FORCE which I have not necessarily seen as a GOOD THING...
Well, I haven't been sure what to do with it as you have...

I haven't noticed many people embracing it...Well, no one, except my H, who also has THE FORCE, as indicated in my previous post...

Folks are drawn to me but when I come on FULL FORCE... it can be intimidating and scary to lots of people. Like-saying what other folks are thinking but are afraid to say..making a joke when other folks are acting too serious...

You know what I mean, I think...

So I learned to hold back in order to better fit in, I think...

Trying to figure this out.....

May the force be with you

couldn't resist

Mimi ... it's a balancing act, for sure

when to let go and when to hold back

balance is a beautiful word

doncha think?

PEP:
I definitely agree with you that FIGHT OR FLIGHT can be unlearned with practice. It certainly has been a longstanding habit with me, though. I'm working on the BALANCING ACT!

NC WALKER:

You sound just like my H when you say:



He's always telling me this. He even reminds me to hold my head up and to walk tall,etc.

However, there's a mixed message. "Be strong and powerful but don't cross me, I am the man"....

I KNOW, I KNOW, BALANCING ACT......