Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh PLAN A.........even if she's telling you she loves you............even if she's telling you she hates you..................SHE'S NOT HERSELF.

DO IT, or you're right, there's no possibility of recovery.

-Caren

Well, this morning was bad. I think I told most of it. My wife blew up, as she said before, she will resent me for making her quit her job. I told her in a non-confrontational way, that I didn't cause her to quit her job, she did. It was choice to have an affair and it her choice to stay in the same job. I can't stay with you if that is what you choose. More love busting on both sides. She says she can't live with someone who won't let her get on with her life and I can't live with someone who doesn't understand the damage they have caused and is unwilling to be a part of the rebuilding. She says that I just have to faith in her. She will never cheat again, and if she does she'll divorce me first!!! LOL WOW that really helps to restore trust and makes me feel like sticking with her.

It's over guys(I know, I've said that before, but wife really feels we are too far apart and I have to agree with her), I'm seeing the attorney tomorrow and will do everything I can to make this be less painful for my daughter.

This sucks, but there's nothing I can do.

Her words are as unstable as the A. So make your life changing decisions on stable facts.

L.

Grove,
Take heart in the fact that the struggle your wife is now going through is very normal.

She wants you to want her, but she doesn't want to want you.
As long as you pursue her, she runs. puts up her wall. But the moment you back off, she freaks-(calls the job hotline)She senses she is losing you, does just enough to pull you back in, see's that you are back, then turns in to the ice queen again.

Its sick, but its a normal part of marriage. Its alo normal to want to hurt your spouse, then lie to yourself that you didn't mean it. She wants to hurt you, because she blames you for making her have the affair. She needs to be honest with herself-and only she can do that.

But you need to be honest with yourself too. Understand you LB to hurt her. Don't kid yourself and say you don't mean it, or can't help it. Then you can't control it. Understand you do it to hurt her, and its probably gone on most of your marriage. Both of you hurt each other intentionally, then said you didn't mean it.

She is fighting the control she feels coming from you, but she can't see that. Its not your love she is fighting, its the control. She doesn't want to be forced in to anything. She allows herself to feel forced, then she allows herself to turn her guilt or shame in to resentment for you.

She says "You can't make me quit my job"
She means "I'm afraid to make these changes, ashamed to admit my mistakes, a new job makes me uncomfortable. easier to blame you, so I will"

She says "We are too far gone to recover"
She means "I want to feel your love. I'm afraid to ask, especially now, so I will not let you see my hurt. I will not look vunerable. easier to pretend I don't need you in the first place"

You are expecting her to validate you by thinking about things the way you do. You think if she understands what she has done and how she has hurt you, you will get some vindication. If she loves you she will feel the same way. She will sooth you, and make you feel better.

I think you are ready to take this to the next level.
Change the battle plan. Stand up for yourself decide what you are sure you want, and don't let her push her choices back on you.

you "Honey, I feel uncomfortable at this party. I feel unloved and undesired, almost as if you are ashamed of me. I know you are having a good time, so I will come back for you when you call.

Her "You always ruin it for me"

You "I'm sorry you feel that way, I'm willing to stay and
share the night with you, but I need to feel more loved."

She then has the choice, you aren't making her do anything. Don't get sucked in to that accusatory way of thinking. Don't let her push blame on to you, and don't blame her for things you should be taking responsibility for.

Everything you say, do and feel should come from you, not from how you allow her to make you feel. Your words, actions, and feelings then have true integrity, and you are not ashamed of them. If you are true to yourself, you then understand that its her choice to love you, or leave you.

Do you believe you are a good person? Do you believe you deserve a wonderful marriage?

Be honest.

If that's what you want, you must be able to love her with everything you have, show her how you feel, and with hold nothing of yourself. Don't be afraid of the pain. Accept it as part of the deal.

Doesn't matter what you get in return. Doesn't matter what she gives back. Be the person you can be and stop letting her impact your true potential as a husband.

Its going to be a hard road, no matter which way she goes. divorce is harder on the kids, but recovery will be much harder for you than divorce.

Can you make the first step and put your entire being on the line for her? Or are you going to hold back to see if she wants it?

If she rejects the real you, the pain will be very bad.

If she rejects you and you know in your heart you held something back, can you live with yourself?

Change the battle plan.

Starting Over,

Thank you so much, I do love my wife with all of my heart, and there has only been a handful of days since Feb 1 that I haven't brought up the affair or the problems with the marriage. I haven't been trying to "win" her back. I thought it was her job to win me back. The sticking points are the independent life style she has been leading and the disrespect that she gives me with this type of lifestyle (secrets, ignoring me when we are out together, etc) and of course finding a new job away from the OM.

This is probably a respect issue more than anything else. My wife and I have not been very respectful of each other for a number of years, if ever. She had a problem with my weight, I got mad about it and ignored her feelings. After losing 40 lbs since dday (and I still need to lose another 20 lbs), I realized just how big I had become. I expected her to love me no matter what, and she should, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't disrespectful by not considering that I am or was an extension of her. She cared about her appearance and I was proud of that, I should have been considerate of her feelings. I should have wanted her to also be proud being seen with me. Recently, I now realize how much I have been "attacking her." I thought if I wasn't raising my voice that I wasn't LB.

While none of this justifies an affair, it does mean that I understand that we had problems before the affair and she didn't cause all of them.

It's time to change the battle plan, let's hope it isn't too late.

{{{Grove}}} Your sitch really tugs at my heart. I clarified a few things about my first response to you on Low Orbit's thread on privacy if you want to take a peek. I need to read your entire history but I'm all out of time right now. I loved StartingOver's post to you, lot's of good thoughts there.

It is so hard to go through recovery not just for you but for her too. The timetable varies and yours will be as individual as you both are. Just from what I have seen, it looks premature to throw in the towel just yet. Try to hang in there, as I said on the other thread, the tiniest bit of hope can go a long way towards getting you through these days. Grove, I said some of the most awful things to and about my BS but all these years later we are happy and recovered. You can be too, don't let FOG TALK get you down. KB

P.S. I would LOVE to see No Contact with that MIL of yours, geez. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Just got home from work. WW had dinner ready when I got home and gave me a kiss. We talked a little about our day. She went to her mom's, so I'm sure she got an ear full. Also, I guess the friend, who called the OM several times (still not completely sure what that was about, I have my suspicions), is now calling my wife saying that her and her hubby are having marital problems. My wife said she can't escape the circus. I told her, at least now she can watch someone else’s circus. She laughed, and it got quiet. I'm watching what I say, I was going to tell her that she could file if she wants, that I'm having some difficulty actual following through. Since neither one of us mentioned anything about our problems, I let it go. Maybe we'll just have a quite night.

Oh well, I have to run, my daughter just got home!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WOW, I just read Low Orbits thread. It was very interesting. I feel reasonably justified in what I did, I still feel dirty about doing it. None of this is a way to live or behave in a marriage. Am I happy about what I heard? Absolutely not, was it an eye opener, ABSOLUTELY; I think it was for my wife too.

She did not get mad about, she didn't throw a fit and claims she will not tell anyone that I did it (MIL). Since I have not informed anyone about the STD and some other stuff, she feels that this doesn't have to leave our home. At least that is what she says. She will not inform me of what she talks about during the day, and doesn't want me to bring it up.

We are falling apart, and there's no net to catch either of us. (I figured I'd stay with the circus analogy).

Terrible night, but no fighting. This is the first night in a while that we haven't argued. I just kept my mouth shut and tried to keep busy.

I realize now that most likely my marriage is over, so there is no reason to put the mother of my child through any more grief. It just won't solve anything.

Yes, I would most likely stay if my wife made an honest effort and restoring trust and making our marriage safe. Once that happened I believe we could work on the other problems.

For some reason she is holding off doing ANYTHING until after her IC session, which isn't until August 1st.

Grove,

How many times have you realized your marraige is over? I know I've seen you write it quite a few times. And you know what? Its always because of your wife's actions, or lack of action.

You've read here.

You know she is probably going through withdrawal, in the fog, not capable of a healthy relationship.

Yet you continue to demand that from her. You continue to expect her to think the way you do. Then when she can't, you throw in the towel.

The problem you can solve is not in your wife.

Its yours.

You are not strong enough to complete plan A, you are not strong enough to stop LB. Yet, instead of making yourself stronger, you blame your wife for not trying. I think its the easy way out.

You don't want a divorce, and neither does she. If she wanted out, she would be out. Quit playing head games with her, and quit allowing her moods to change your direction. You know she's unstable, expect her to not know what she wants. When she tells you she is waiting on MC to make up her mind, tell her you want her no matter what, and you hope someday she wants you again.

Are you witholding your love-you are only giving it if you get it from her in return? Or are you being the lighthouse, standing firm and sending out the strong signal that will draw her in? I think you send out the signal only when she
wants to see it, or needs it. You need to send it out constantly. Constant plan A. Its the only thing that works.


You are on the roller-coaster because what ever she is feeling dictates what you feel. Can't you see it? You have given the control of your life to her.

Set your boundaries. Set your time limits. Then make yourself strong enough to follow through. Once you can do that, your confidence and ability grow even faster, making it easier and easier to enforce them.

How about giving it your all until Texas comes to town?

Change your battle plan.

I understand that I never completed a good plan A, I felt somewhat justified in that each time something happened to screw up my mental state. Plan B was never an option since my attorney advised me not to leave the home.

Less than a week after d day, my wife started to refuse answering my questions. I understand this is normal; I would catch her saying something that contradicted a previous statement and question her on it. So she began answering every question with I don't know or I don't remember.

Ok, I thought with time she will come around. I knew I still loved her and I wanted to try to keep my family intact.

Next, I noticed my wife had become distant and that gut feeling came back. So I called Dr Harley's show and I spoke to Dr Harley on the radio and he felt that the affair was back on. Sure enough I do some snooping and discover the OM has been in contact with my wife's friend during days that my wife wasn't home, and then the friend would call my wife. When I asked my wife about it, she denied knowing anything about it. Of course I eventually found out after MIL slips and says that my wife told her that the OM was calling because he thought I was "stalking" him. I was showing up at my wife’s work at the end of the day to "check up" and to meet her for dinner or to go together to pick up my daughter.

Time goes on, wife refuses to do anything to help restore trust and rebuild the marriage. Finally I begin or do the 180. This got her attention and after a couple of weeks the wife said she was feeling happy again. The school year was coming to a close and she'd like to go with her friends since this might be her final year working with them. I say no problem, as long as we agree that if the OM is there you will leave and if he tries to talk to you, you will inform him that you are working on your marriage and do not wish to talk to him. Of course I snoop, on the way home I see his truck at the bar and my darling wife is there. I ask a friend to stop in after work. He observes my wife and the OM sitting alone at a table and the OM buying her a shot. I give my wife 2 1/2 hours to leave, she doesn't. I show up, ask to speak to her alone, she doesn't want to. So I politely, but firmly inform her that our daughter and I would be going to my mother's for the night, and that she broke her promise to leave and to have no contact. She said ok. So I left. 20/30 minutes later, I get a call from WW saying she is on her way home and that she was planning on telling me about the conversation and that she hoped that would show that she was being honest. In-between that call I had finally spoke to OM's live-in girlfriend. She said my wife had followed her a couple times and that she was still trying to see her boyfriend. Of course my wife denied it.

Wife goes on 9 day vacation. Comes home, refuses to talk about problems, except to say that my behavior had caused her to not want to work on restoring the marriage. She didn't want a divorce, but she also didn't want to be "harassed" everyday and be reminded of the mistakes she had made. She no longer feels she should find a new job, but would at least look at the postings and if the perfect situation became available, she'd take it. We both agree to give things until July 15th.

Couple weeks go by and a wart appears on my &!@$. My wife still denies a PA and begins to tell me she loves me. I am devastated by the appearance of an STD. Even though I knew she was diagnosed with one in Sept 04, this without a doubt proved a PA happened. My wife still denies a PA. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


NOW:
Her class reunion was degrading. Here's an example of the night captured forever on film. A picture was taken of everyone at the reunion (classmates with their spouses). My wife is in the front row with some girlfriends, I am in the back by myself. We are the only couple not together in the picture.

After all of this, I still would be willing to try and rebuild and restore our marriage if my wife did a 180 and began really working on our marriage. I am also concerned that my willingness to stay with my wife might not be healthy. After all that she has done, why am still willing to stay with my wife? Is this caused by my own fears and insecurity or is it that I truly love my wife and hope that we can restore our marriage?

Two months ago, we came up with a deadline for deciding if we should stay together. I told my wife what I needed her to do; she told me what she needed me to do. As July 15th approached I asked her if she planned on doing any of the things I asked of her. She said I was trying to control her and harass her. She didn't like ultimatums.

Next up was the phone call with MIL and that's where we are at now.

I guess neither of us has succeeded. My IC feels that the marriage is most likely over. His exact words were, "there has been too much damage done on both sides and he didn't think we would be able to work through this and stay together." He did say that the thing about setting a deadline is that it's your deadline and you can move it if that is what you want to do. There is no reason to rush into a divorce.

Ok, sorry for the long post. I don't know why I just went through all of that. But it did feel good. I guess I feel that my wife really hasn't given me hope, and it's hard to not LB when you feel disrespected and unloved. I do believe that love is a choice, we choose to love someone and we can choose not to give our love to someone. I believed in my heart that in every situation I was trying to save my marriage. Of course what I was really doing was trying to make my wife feel and act like I wanted her to. I still feel she has behaved horrible since d-day, and I may not be able to stay with her, but I also realize that I could have handled this better.

As for snooping, I told my wife how bad it feels that every time I've snooped I've discovered something. With that she pointed out that I check her cell phone weekly and both our house and her cell phone bill and haven't seen anything suspicious since D-Day. She reminds me that she calls me daily to tell me where she is and what she is doing. She then told me how unappreciated this made her feel that I didn't give her any credit and that it really made her wonder why or if it was really worth trying to stay in the marriage.

My point is that I understand that there was more I could have done to save my marriage. It is partly what has kept me from filing. I want to be able to look into my daughters eyes and know that I did everything I could to keep our family together, but right now I feel like I am doing most of the heavy lifting and my back is getting very sore.

Thanks Starting Over, your insight is always appreciated.

GTO

I think Texas is coming to town on September 10th, I think I might be able to hold out that long. This will be very difficult to do if my wife remains in her same job though. I thought that maybe I should give my wife until the middle of August for her to find another job and before the school year starts. If she hasn't found another job I just feel that it would be near impossible for us to restore our marriage and honestly I just don't want the feelings of pain and anxiety that goes along with her working with the OM.

Grove,

Cool. You value your peace of mind, and are not willing to put up with the anxiety of OM another entire school year.
Not because its bad for her-only she can determine that- but becasue you understand its bad for you. You don't want to control her, you just want to protect yourself. Changes the dynamic of the situation, just like when you told her you were not trying anymore.

Having bad feelings towards you is better than having no feelings. If she didn't care she wouldn't keep trying to convince you she is right about everything, or force you in to her way of thinking. Take some comfort in that.

Yes, Sept 10 is the day. Wouldn't it be wonderful to watch the game w/ her? Are you guys Buckeye fans?

>>>"Not because its bad for her-only she can determine that- but becasue you understand its bad for you. You don't want to control her, you just want to protect yourself."<<<<

I guess I feel that her working with the OM is bad for us, not just me. Absolutely NC is a must even if it means moving and the WS quitting their job. I do not know of any counselor or "expert" on infidelity that believes it is really possible for a marriage to succeed if the WS does not end all contact. I believe that it would be very very difficult for us to rebuild our marriage as long as the OM is still somewhere in the picture.

I do not doubt that my wife still cares for me, but right now she does not care enough about me to consider my feelings or what would be the best for our marriage and family. She is unwilling at this time and since d-day to do much of anything to help fix this mess.

I can't do it alone. I could do it for awhile as long as there was hope that things might change. I'm not sure there is much hope left. This is degrading. The affair was bad enough, but this might just be worse.

(wife and I both graduated from Ohio State. It's hard to live in Columbus and not be a Buckeye fan. To add insult to injury, the OM is from Michigan!)

absolutely! you must have no contact, absolutely OM needs to be totally out of the picture. But to get her to the point of realizing that-you have to EXECUTE plan A.

Plan A helps clear the fog.
The fog doesn't clear-then you Plan A.

Which statement is what you believe?


Plan A is the best way to begin to recover my marriage.

or
I don't believe a perfectly executed plan A will work.

I think a perfectly executed plan a may have a chance at saving my marriage.

I just don't think that a perfectly plan a will bring her out of the fog until the school year starts and then she will not look for another job. Would you agree that it will be difficult for the plan a to work as long as the OM is not out of the picture?

I love this woman, but the damage she has done since d day is nearly as bad as the affair. I'm not innocent in this either. I've Love Busted nearly every step of the way. I just wish I could get her to call SH just once.

I'm stuck and I honestly feel that my wife has left me no other choice than to file for divorce.

If you believe it, then set your time limit and get strong enough to execute perfectly.

You are asking her to take a perspective on OM and how she has hurt you that will not be there until AFTER she is out of the fog, AFTER her love for you is restored. She doesn't feel that way now. If you force her in to saying things to make you feel better, she hates herself for lying, resents you for controling her, and you don't believe her anyway. Seems pointless to try and get her to see it your way. You are wasting too much time and effort on what is going thru her mind. Time and effort much better spent on things that improve you as a father and husband.

Plan A is very difficult to do, butit is exactly what you are to do while OM is still in the picture. Him being in the picture is a requirement of plan A! In fact, once OM is gone and a NC letter written, plan A is over. This is the point at which marriage recovery starts. Now, you still use what you have learned during plan A in your marriage, but its no longer plan A.

Read Ark's post on plan A. It might help you sort it out a little better. There are excellent suggestions that you are capable of doing today that don't depend one bit on what your WW is doing.


Yes, you are stuck. You are stuck trying to get her to make a move toward a normal healthy relationship, and its not gonna happen soon. You are stuck not willing to try unless you have a better chance at getting her back.

I have to be totally honest, I don't think I can do a good plan a. I know that sounds terrible, but I know my personality, I'm a very emotional person. I wear my emotions on my sleeves. 6 months after d day I'm still crying like a baby. I guess I have started a plan a this week. I haven't mentioned our problems, the affair and I've backed away from things that normally cause us to fight.

Here is the problem. I am damaged, very damaged. Counseling isn't helping, mostly because I'm going back home to a situation that feels out of my control. The person I love is no longer in the home and has been replaced by another woman and I can't understand what's going on. I've been with this woman since I was 16 years old (now 39 years old). This is someone I would trust to never knowingly hurt me, yet she's doing it again and again. This has left me a mess and the fact that she has told me that she most likely will not apply for another job, leaves me feeling empty inside. I just want her to throw me somekind of bone. Something to say that the woman I married still exist. I need that so badly.

Being honest is the start. Go back and read Bob Pure's early posts- one year ago he was a mess. Your feelings are normal and expected. Just study the MB concepts and work hard. That's all you can do, but its usually enough.

grove, you know that I am 100% behind you saving your marriage. I also think that you might be moving too fast toward a D. That being said, you need to forget about some of the psychobabble on the board and swimming around your head. We have discussed much and I have read all of your posts.

I know that there is only one thing that is going to save your marriage. That is for your wife to finally admit the A, tell you the details of the A, tell you that she is sorry for having the A, tell you that she loves you and wants to stay married and the assurances that she will never cheat on you again and why. All of these rosy concepts are going to mean nothing to you unless you get this. You can stay married for fifty years but you will never recover until you get this.

Simply devise a game plan to get this or move forward with the D. I hope you get what you need and your M recovers. However, you have waited long enough for something that you deserve right now. Push to get it or take control of your life and move on. You are too good of a person to go through this and you deserve better. Good luck and go get 'em.

Thanks Bob,

I honestly appreciate everyone's support and input. Starting Again and KB have brought up some very good points. You are definately on the mark concerning my need to have the affair cleared up. It's been 6 months, I was hoping that by now my wife would have told me the truth about the affair and we could now be working on recovery.

I just need something from my wife to help get me over this hump and back to a Plan A. Tonight wasn't it.

SINCE PLAN A IS FOR WHEN THE AFFAIR IS GOING ON, WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN IT IS ON "HOLD". RIGHT NOW MY IS NOT IN SCHOOL, SO SHE IS NOT SEEING THE OM, BUT WHEN SEPTEMBER ROLLS AROUND SHE WILL HAVE DAILY CONTACT WITH HIM. I WAS HOPING THAT THIS WOULD BE A NON ISSUE AND THAT MY WIFE WOULD BE IN ANOTHER JOB, BUT UNFORTUNATELY IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

I went to the attorney today. I felt that after my Wife's conversation with MIL and the way she treated me at her HS Reunion, I needed to protect myself. He basically said that I didn't have anything to worry about if my wife wanted to get into a custody battle. He did say that she hired one of the tougher divorce lawyers in town.

Basically he didn't say much else. I had mentioned last week to my wife that I was going to see an attorney this week and she didn't seem to want to talk about it. Still I didn't want to lie to her and I also needed to get some information from her. (and if I'm honest, maybe I was searching for a "please don't divorce me" plea, which I didn't get).

She basically is sticking with, "I don't want a divorce, I won't make any promises, I have no plans to have an affair again and if I do I'll divorce you first, and I am getting tired of you bringing up your problems and the affair." She says she believes I will never get over it, and I reply that I won't as long as she refuses to deal with it and the devastation the affair has caused. I told her that if I do divorce her, it will not be "over the affair", it will be over the way she has handled the situation after d-day. She says that's my choice, but that she will not have me controlling her life!!

I cry, which I hate doing, so it ends there.

On a side note:
She sent the paperwork in to say that we would not be adopting another child. I know it's the right thing to do, but it's very painful. She also agreed to have us sit on an adoption panel for an adoption/parenting class. Basically we tell our stories and answer questions. We pretend we are a happy family. My wife lies to the group and says that we are in the process of adopting another child. This was very tough and I can't believe that my wife would actually schedule something like this. It's just a reminder of how wrong things have gone and how our lives could have been.