SLH, no problem. No threadjack here. Just keeping the discussion going. If I can ever get three minutes to myself, I will be able to finish the women's roles in marriage thread. but a quick note on it here in order to answer your question.

Okay, first off...God warned us not to marry an unbeliever. He warned us explicitly to not do that, because usually the believer is pulled away by the unbeliever, instead of the unbeliever being pulled toward Jesus.

Now sometimes, maybe two unbelievers marry and then the wife gets saved. What then??? Well there are whole passages for wives on how to make their husband all they should be. It is thru their chaste and respectful behavior. And like I said, I will finish the women's thread this week so you can see the details of what that means.

Whether or not a husband is a believer, he is still the head of the family as ordained by God. And there are certain blessings that come to that family by the wife being the kind of wife that God expects. The Bible even says that a woman's behavior and rightness with God will actually win over her husband. God will use that Godly woman to get thru to her husband. But that requires that wife to do some superhuman things. To endure an unbelieving husband and to not have a household that is all that it should be. But, if she hangs in there, God promises to come through. One thing to remember though...God does not require you to follow a leader that is telling you to do something that is against what his leader is telling him. That is your "out" in following your husband.

Of course, God does not force a woman to stay in a marriage with an unbelieving husband that is trying to leave. God says to let them go.

Basically, this all means first...dont marry an unbeliever...and second, if you are married to an unbleiving husband, then you do your part as outlined by God...and He will take care of the rest.

There actually is a passage that God has for that woman that is a Godly wife, when translated into today's language, literally means "I have your back." God has your back, as long as you do what you need to do.

Kinda what I was saying about us husbands above.

In His arms.

Well Mortarman -

Not to threadjack my own thread, but here goes. I married a believer. Tried to be a godly woman. But he never stepped up to be the leader. As I mentioned before, I have been in many, many women's groups through my church. The most common desire of these women is for the husband to lead. And yes, I did follow. But try following someone who is more lost than you are.

Even in the Christian world, men have a terrible time with this. They work to take care of their families, go to church, but have a hard time with the leadership role.

For the non-believers - Guys - women crave a man who is the leader in his family. For me this means making an effort to honor your wife, and family. It means coming home from a hard day at work and not just turning on the TV. It means planning for a future, and holding onto a higher standard.

And for you Bob, yep - sometimes being the leader is not a lot of fun.

Well, of course it is fun!! Look, why do soldiers continue to sign up for low pay, bad living conditions, possible death, long eployments away from their families? Why?

It is because of the sacrifice. It is extremely powerful, one of the most powerful feelings you can ever have, to lay yourself out there for another...for 300 million others.

Jesus did that. And while a lot of what He went thru certainly was not fun (as was evidenced just a little bit in the Passion of Christ), the results were absolutely fun for Him! He was able to save many of those people that He loves. He made a way for all of us to have a relationship with Him forever. For those that accept His payment, we will forever be "married" to Him, forever in His presence. Not bad. And I know if you ask Jesus today if it was all worth it, you know He would say yes.

Three years ago, in the middle of the affair, in the middle of the betrayal...God called on me to either give up (which I could have) or trust Him and die. Jesus did the same. He decided that He would do the dying, and He would trust God to get Him up out of that grave. So, I decided to do the same. That if I followed Him, no matter how bad it got...that He would have my back, He would make sure I came up out of that grave after dying for my wife.

Bob, the fun aint the dying...the fun is the other side!!

In His arms.

It means planning for a future, and holding onto a higher standard.

B, this really strikes me. This is what I strive to do. I decided early on after d-day that I WOULD NOT fight lies with lies. I adopted PORH almost before everything else.

OM is such a foul weasel in almost every part of his life, I was determined to behave in a way that I would be proud of. That my Mom and Dad would have approved of if they were here.

How could I ask for transparency from Squid If I obfuscated? How could I ask her and my kids for truth if I lied?

How could I ask for faithfulnes if I were unfaithful ?

I really do deliberately strive to conform to a higher standard. Its hard sometimes, but I'm at peace with my reflection which is great gain.

Believer, I know what you mean. And that is why I posted my other thread...and why I continue to harp on this for the men. Because our society is turning our wimps, turning out men that are afraid to lead. Afraid that they will appear overbearing, or somehow trying to "enslave" their wife.

But the women, in their quiet time, in their groups, to their friends, are SCREAMING for a leader. It has to be hard in that position, to KNOW you need a leader, and the person that is supposed to be that leader, wont. But again, to follow God's program, to follow what He says a wife should, means He will deal with that man. He will take care of you, even if that means that you will have a new leader in the future.

A husband that professes to follow Jesus, professes to be saved, who calls himself a Christian...and does not follow God's calling for him as a husband and leader...I would actually question whether they were actually saved in the first place.

You will know them by their fruits. a husband that does not follow Christ and does not lead his family...cannot have the fruits of the Spirit. And is fooling himself that he is saved.

In His arms.

MM -

I do believe that these men are saved, but in our society it is extremely difficult to be a man that steps up.

I work in the engineering field with more than 20 men, and I can go toe to toe with them. But I don't want that with my husband. I'm sure there are many, many women here that feel the same.

MM says:
If I can ever get three minutes to myself, I will be able to finish the women's roles in marriage thread. but a quick note on it here in order to answer your question.

MM, Thanks so much for taking the time to address my question. I apologize for asking it here -- I had no idea that there was a thread devoted to the Wives' role in Marriage. If you or anyone else gets a moment, will you please direct me to it? I have a lot to learn.

Thanks,

slh

But the women, in their quiet time, in their groups, to their friends, are SCREAMING for a leader. It has to be hard in that position, to KNOW you need a leader, and the person that is supposed to be that leader, wont.

Yes, yes, YES!

And guys, these aren't women from some religious extremist faction here. They're not made up of some innocuous cult who won't allow their women to cut their hair or wear shorts or make-up. These are your neighbors, your coworkers, your wives.

[/i]Everyone[/i] needs someone to look up to, to admire, to cherish and honor. To lead. As a wife, I ask, why not your husband?

It's what our vows said.


slh

You know I just wanted to stop in and say that although I’ve never been anything else… other then a faithful husband…I don’t really see this as being anything extraordinary. It’s just something that has always seemed right…a balanced part of my life…she and I…me and her…just a right combination…

So how could I ever cheat on her…my best friend and partner?…The one person in the world I always couldn’t wait to speak with, be with, share with? I measured everything in life with her response to it in mind.

And I’ll make no bones about that fact that I’m a lover of the female of the species in general…I truly enjoy woman…I love being in their company…looking at them…enjoying their beauty…yes…even day dreaming about their beauty…but to want one other then my wife just never really was an issue for me…I wonder why?
Coach

Coach, practically brilliant what you said here. I believe this with all my heart. You know, God made women this way. Remember, as God created everything, He kept right on working. One day He created man, the supposed crowning glory of His creation. Man, who was created in His image. Man, who was put in charge of God's creation, who got to name it and to have dominion over it.

But what does it say in Genesis about man, after God created him and set him about his day? It said "this isnt good." He looked at man and knew that He was not done yet. That there was something missing from Adam, some part of God that was not represented in Adam.

And so He created Eve. And what does Genesis say about the creation of Eve? Well, God said "it is VERY good." Eve was the last thing God made in creation. Eve was the crown of His creation. You can look into the stars and see the most incredible things...and still He wasnt done until He got to Eve. All of the systems and subsystems that make this planet work...and still He wasnt done yet...not until Eve.

All of the great men and the things they have done throughout history...but it wasnt until God created the woman that He was done...that He had made his ultimate creation.

If we sit back and think about it, why wouldnt we look at women (and our wives in particular, because that particular woman was created or us) in absolute awe. You know, if you go back to the original language of the Old Testament, you will realize something of this when Adam first saw Eve.

Adam was given the job of naming everything in creation. He had even named himself. He called himself "Ish" (promounced 'eesh'), wich is in another way..."man."

When he saw Eve he was awestruck. Here was someone that sort of looked like him, sort of acted like him...but was oh so different. Incredibly different! So, when it came time to name her, he named her Ishaw (May not be right spelling, but it is promounced "eesh-awe." Woman. A man, but not a man. Incredibly different.

She was created from him, but different. God had created Adam from dust. Eve was created from Adam. But when she was created, God had improved in so many ways on the original.

Let me ask you a question. Name 5 great men in history and name their wives. Name 10, name 15. Of course, we all can begin to chime in (Nancy Reagan, Mary Todd Lincoln, Martha Washington). Now, name 5 of society's great women (by society's standard). And name the name of their husbands. Bet you cannot do it.

I always was a good soldier in the Army. But, I didnt start excelling, I didnt become one of the best in the Army at what I did, until I met my wife. You can divide my career in two parts...pre-Mrs. Mortarman and after I married her. And it is night and day.

I was one of the youngest first sergeants in the division I was in. And I still get calls to come back to be a sergeant major and I would even be the youngest division command sergeant major if I had stayed.

Why is this? Why am more than I ever could have been, just with this woman in my life? God says that when we were married, we were bonded together...we became one. No longer could God look at Mortarman and say "this isnt good." but now He ssaw Mortarman and said this is very good.

Wit my wife bonded to me, I no longer was the person I used to be. it is like the old wine flasks. made out of animal skins or bladders. Once those skins were filled with wine, the wine fermented and the skins expanded. And they never could have gone back to the way they used to be.

I know I went on a tangent here, but we men had better wake up to see that our wives are not just a part of our lives, not someone to placate or be nice to when we want to "get some." They arent one of our buddies, or a partner (as so many people SAY they want out of marriage).

No, that lady is the crowning achievement of God. His most glorious creation. And guess what guys? Just as Adam got Eve...God created a woman, one of His greatest creaions...just for YOU!

Sure, thanks to Adam and Eve's failures, that woman isnt perfect. She has sin, just as we do. But look deeper. Look deep down. Inside that woman that says she wants independence and to live like a man, lives this creature that wants nothing more than to be the end-all-be-all to one person on this planet. The key is for you, with your dependence on Jesus, to help find your way to that inner woman.

My problem throughout the affair was that I thought my wife was going to react as a guy would. What I realize now is that MB principles work for a reason. Because we humans are wired to be this way, and to react to these principles. But I also realized that there are differences also. I cannot expect my wife to react to these things the same way as I do. Shoot, we were talking today about the differences between men and women in how they orgasm (okay, guys...dont get too excited there...it wasnt that "sexy"). But my wife, who is a nurse, talked about where I had read recently that women, when they orgasm...their brain almost completely shut down in that moment. I cannot even imagine what that must be like. Anyway, my wife went on to tell me that yes, physically, women start from a state of anxiwty and move toward a stae of calmness...that the orgasm is the crowning achievement of reaching total relaxation and comfortness. Men, on the otherhand, start of calm and relaxed and reach orgasm at their most hightened state...they are the complete opposite of calm and relaxed. Oh, how different we are...it is a wonder that we ever get it together in the bedroom.

The key to this is to find the balance...to find a way to get the guy worked up, while calming the woman down. No way her brain can get comfortable enough to shut down (orgasm) in an environment where she does not feel safe or is not comfotable.

I'll stop now with that. I have learned to look on my wife in a whole different way now. And even with all of her flaws, all I really see is something incredible.

In His arms.

Believer - Going "toe to toe" with men is the "mantra" of the feminist movement. Women DON'T need men. "The Message" has been heard loud and clear by men and women are "getting what they wanted."

I know, that sounds harsh and unfeeling. But after decades of propaganda from all sides, just WHY should a man be a "leader," rather than a "ruler or master or a 'Casper Milktoast'" in his own home?

Beginning in the 60's, women "bought into the sexual revolution and the equality of the sexes" garbage. Women no longer "required" being treated as something special, to be sought after for more than sexual fulfilment. So why, now, are some women lamenting having achieved what Gloria Steinam and the NOW crowd have labored for? Since NO man has any right to his child if the woman wants, for whatever reason, to have an abortion, who IS the "leader" in the home?

The "mixed messages" abound. Unless someone is a committed CHRISTIAN male, why would God's roles be important, much less something to be obeyed, to the husband? Why would a husband WANT to be a leader when the wife acts like all other "feminist women" in most respects?

Why, when Hollywood, among many other sources, preaches that women are "objects" who are to look and act seductive, should the men of the world NOT take that as "gospel?"

Personally, I think what women are reaping today is just what they wanted....to "have their cake and eat it too."

Men ARE fairly simple creatures. Men tend to take "direct paths" and are not into "Feminine guile" to get what they want. So the "lesson" men have learned is that women are "equal" and should be treated just as you would treat another "man." Ever ask yourself WHY men generally have so few "friends?" It has a lot to with "vulnerability" and seeming "less than a macho male."

StillLovingHim made the following response to your post:

"Yes, yes, YES!

And guys, these aren't women from some religious extremist faction here. They're not made up of some innocuous cult who won't allow their women to cut their hair or wear shorts or make-up. These are your neighbors, your coworkers, your wives.

Everyone needs someone to look up to, to admire, to cherish and honor. To lead. As a wife, I ask, why not your husband?

It's what our vows said."

So I ask the question, ala Tina Turner,...."What's a vow go to do with it?"

Hollywood, "no fault divorce," etc. have taught us that vows are meaningless in our society. So WHAT is it that would engender a desire in the HUSBAND to fulfill a role that God has COMMANDED, whether he likes it or not and whether or not he "wants" to to it? Think about it, even God has commanded the MAN to love his wife, but has NOT commanded the wife to love her husband. So given the "self-interest" propaganda of society, why should a man be interested in a marriage where the wife doesn't have to love HIM? She can love his money, his status in life, etc., but doesn't have to love him. Seems like a recipe for "arm candy" to me....IF the man is NOT surrendered to Christ and walking in humble submission to God's will, whether he "understands" it or not.

After all, to most of society "God" is "just another" woman (just ask any feminist who delights in ascribing a female gender to God) TELLING and DEMANDING that man to "stuff his needs and feelings and just do what he's told."

Where does the woman's role in all of this come into play?

In God's plan for marriage, there ARE roles that the man and woman are to fulfill. But that presupposes a willingness on both their parts to submit to God FIRST.

Women are supposed to be "completers" of their husbands, not their "equal" or "toe to toe" person. StillLovingHim put it this way; "these aren't women from some religious extremist faction here." No, they are not, but they are part of a gender that has done it's level best to "demasculinize" men and to get them "in touch with their feminine side." So now they are surprised that they got what they wanted?

So, what's to be done about it? Talking about God's roles for husbands and wives is a very good starting point, but only in so far as a couple is willing to be obedient to God no matter what. Several years ago I said that I found it hard to understand how anyone who is NOT a Christian could recover from adultery. The reason for that is multifaceted, but the "base" idea is that it entails surrendering our "wants and desires" to God and then "obeying His commands." Most of us don't want to surrender "control" and view everything from a "pleasing ME" viewpoint, instead of a "pleasing God" viewpoint.

So when StillLovingHim wrote her list of "wants" for a husband, "someone to look up to, to admire, to cherish and honor. To lead. As a wife, I ask, why not your husband?
", I would respond by asking why should a husband "go against all that society and feminism have demanded of him? Women don't want a man to "look up to, to admire, to cherish," they want a man to "go toe to toe with," if they need a man at all. So is it "earning power, status in life, sexual prowess, etc." that is supposed to "garner the admiration, honor, and cherishing" of "manhood?"

The "problem," as I see it, is in our disobedience (both men and women) to God's commands. We put God on a shelf (at best) for most of the time and only "drag it off the shelf and dust it off" when it's "convenient" for us. We are "reaping what we have sown" as a society. Toss into that mix the very real differences that God created in men and women (much to the chagrin of feminists) and there is a "disconnect" in "how men are supposed to behave."

Today we have society trying it's level best to do away with "biblical based marriage." There IS nothing "special" about marriage, just as their is nothing "wrong" with having homosexual ministers. The SCRIPTURE is "meaningless," or at best simply a collection of "nice stories."

So what's the answer? Surrender to Christ, walk with Christ, and obey God's commands regardless of how we might be feeling. But tell that to a non-believer and get ready for a firestorm of resentment, anger, and abusive response. That is NOT the "human thing to do." WE, after all, are in control of our television set. WE control the horizontal and the vertical. We are NOT created to honor God, but to do and get whatever WE want, regardless of the impact on anyone else. WE are human. OR to put it in the feminist vernacular...."I am WOMAN...hear me ROAR!"

"What's love got to do with it?!?!"

Foreverhers - Your points are well taken.

My WH's OW's husband is a good man. He is not a Christian, though. He has sacrifised for his country - 2 tours in Irag (during the last one, the affair started). He came home to no wife and no job. But he stepped up and took care of his daughter. He takes her to school, sports events, cooks and cleans, and now works two jobs.

He has proven to be an honorable man. It just makes me so sad to see the raw deal he got. But you know what? He doesn't complain at all, just keeps plodding along.

It has really changed the way I look at men.

Believer - I grieve with you about the OW's husband. That man sounds like a the sort of "Unequally yoked" spouse that Scripture talks about who is trying to to the "right thing" even though they have not personally met and accepted Christ.

We all have the innate ability to know what is "right" and what is "wrong," as a consequence of the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Some of us "hear" that voice and respond...

It is a voice, most often, of service. We choose to be the servant of our spouse, putting their needs ahead of what we might perceive as "our needs." In the case of this gentleman, he seems to have embraced the military posture of "service to his fellow Americans," Duty, Honor, Country, Service.

It IS a shame that so many in this country do NOT respect the sacrifice that so many others make on our behalf, and sometimes, as seems to be the case here, they come home from protecting our freedom to find that someone else excercise that "freedom" to take what was theirs simply because they "felt like it."

We have had several in the military who have been "members" of our "club" on MB...and it really hurts. In most cases, they are overseas and can't even begin to "fight" the "MB way" or even any way.

To those who serve and who have served in the Armed Forces, we owe our "freedom" to "do as we wish." I just wish more of us had personal Standards that would not take advantage of "when the cat's away, the mice will play."

Obviously, I don't know his situation like you do, but I am sure that his wife was even more to "blame" than your husband because she KNEW that being married to a serviceman would be some periods of extended separation when he was deployed.

I think I'll stop for now because this whole idea reeks of using, abusing, and backstabbing someone who is defending our freedom so that WE, ourselves, don't have to go fight for our freedom (we just get to abuse that freedom) and it's getting me "worked up."

God bless.

Foreverhers -

The odd thing is that I almost felt worse for her husband than I did for myself. I did ask my husband how he could do that, and he made some feeble joke. But I know it will one day bother him. We have always had a heart for veterans and soldiers and have been very active in trying to help them.

So I wonder how the faithful husbands here are doing? Seems like Gramn's situation is getting to the turnaround point. I think he was one of the first to expose lately.