I started posting here when I was a mess. (We can argue about whether that's changed any. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

I continued to post when I realized that I was being helped by the writing I was doing to other people. Seeing other people's patterns, trying to see how the MB principles applied, continuing to learn and grow.

After a while, things were so bad in my world that the best thing I could do was read about other people's problems and try to help them. Then my problems didn't seem so big.

And I got so much help, both here and in the rest of life, that I made a commitment to pay that help forward.

After a long while of posting (it's been more than two years, and heading toward three since I started reading at MB), these days I don't post here so much. I post elsewhere, of course, and still give plenty of advice there. That's where I write about my own journey, as well. (These days, that journey seems to be full of images of a man with the warmth of the sun in his eyes, and trying to figure out what those images mean.)

But I come here, at this point, for other reasons. I come to read the thoughtful things people say that are outside the context of a specific, heartbreaking affair situation. I come to read the broader questions, like this one and the ones on the thread about power, to participate in the discussions about What It All Means. I come to sit around Gray's campfire.

So when I'm drawn into an occasional thread about a specific situation, my attention to the drama is relatively limited. If it seems that there's something that hasn't been said that's relevant to the situation, I say it. If it seems that the person is actually rational enough to try to understand what's going on and how to get through it, I'll continue to post to them. (Assuming, of course, that I make it back in time to post, as I'm not here very much anymore.)

But I got really tired of posting to the ones who didn't ever seem to change. Their lives are too chaotic for me to be able to participate in it and maintain my own inner serenity. The emotional energy it takes to participate in it seemed to just fuel the fire, rather than put it out.

So yeah, Pep. I see that pattern. I think the pattern is fueled by the pain that we have all felt, and by our desire to be able to do something (anything) that will help. When someone cries out for help, our most basic instinct is to rush to their assistance. It's hard to learn to stand back and let them succeed, or fail, on their own.

Hard yes, but much like parenting often necessary.

J, I use the pay it forward idea here and elsewhere too. I have grown a lot since reading here last year.

Could it be that we feel needed for a lil bit? Someone seems to be interested in our *advice*... they say they want help.... say they want to change... so we (sometimes) pour everything we have in our tool belt into helping... they soak it up like a sponge, and we feel validated / important / needed / useful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> . Nothing really wrong with that.

At some point (when?) we realize the sponge may have sucked us dry.... and never accompished the goal. Perhaps lessons were learned anyway, so the process was not a wasted exercise.

It's nice to be able to look back in hindsight, or observe from the sidelines to see patterns that are not healthy. Sometimes we don't realize we are caught in a pattern, or.... we are caught and are not sure how to get out.... or.... we still hope the payoff will be worth it. Payoff = seeing another person's pain and suffering end.

Faith ... well said indeed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well said indeed. I have been at that point so many times. I was at it just recently.

And our tendency is to get angry at the person for sucking us dry...

When what we should do is examine ourselves, our motives and our patterns.

No one sucks us dry unless we allow them to.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Acutally, Pep,

The ones that don't really want help or won't help themselves have taught me a lot over the years. I have become much more sensitive to situations where it is clear I cannot help. I have learned to see progress in the little things and if I don't see that I don't really care what they say about the big things.

I have learned about perspective and its power, and when I see a poster whose perspective is not changing no matter the advice and insight being offered, I am pretty sure I cannot help.

I have seen situations here where I simply cannot post because I really have nothing to offer because the drama level is too high, but some of the WORST situations have turned around when you can detect even the smallest steps toward changing perspective.

I often quote K and his story about finding out his W's is pregnant with OM's child, and he figures out this is an OPPORTUNITY (Steve Harley must be one heck of a counselor), because it seems the patterns you mention are found in people that see no OPPORTUNITY in the advice offered. Therefore, even if they don't agree with a thing I am saying but they do try something that is better than seeing NO OPPORTUNITY and thus are unlikely do anything to change it.

As my college football coach once yelled at me "Do something wrong right once in your life." Coming from a old southern football coach it was pretty profound, doing nothing rarely changes things, unless one has DECIDED that doing nothing is the best strategy to accomplish a goal.

But, yes the patterns are there, and as I continue to post I seem to see them sooner and sooner. AS much as we try we to help and offer advice we must remember... this is a SELF help board.

They do have to help themselves. Just some thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

One of the things that the Dalai Lama says about compassion is that it's the most selfish act you can possibly commit -- it gives you more benefit than anything else you can possibly do.

He encourages this kind of selfishness. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do not think, however, that he considers compassion to be the same as "giving until your giver done gave out."

Maybe that's the thing we need to watch out for. Compassion can mean that we allow someone to fail, rather than going to inhuman lengths to keep them from making a mistake they're determined to make. Like FF said, it's a lot like parenting.

This is fascinating ....

I do confess to the entire board that I am fairly looped on cough syrup ... does it show?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

No, it didn't until you confessed it. You were making perfect sense. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'd delete that if I were you because this has been one of your better days and people will be wanting to buy the stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

well it's not for sale! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Maybe it's the Afrin I just squirted up my snozz ... looooopeee

Thanks JL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just J made a very good point. Our own problems sometimes seem so great, that trying to help someone else, can take the focus off ourselves (maybe that's not exactly what was meant, but I think this itself is a good point). If the poster is continually unreponsive--we can focus our frustrations on them, even silently, rather than on ourselves our those in our personal lives. If the poster is continually seeking drama, you can thank God your life isn't quite so dramatic and it's easier to focus on their drama in order to get away from your own. If the poster does finally 'get it' we can cheer for them, where we can't cheer for ourselves.

It allows us to be Protectors and Caregivers. If we happen to fail, it doesn't really affect us in the long run since we are only involved with this person in a very limited way. For many of us..the people we WANT to protect and give care to--don't want it from us anymore. Well..here's a poster who's just begging for it! If we fail to "get through" to the poster, our sense of failure will not run as deep nor as painful than failing to protect or give care to those in our own lives.

Simply, posting to these posters makes us feel useful, where we may not feel very useful or valued in our own worlds. Even an unresponsive poster makes us feel useful for a least some time period.

You know this is just amazing to me, this whole thread... this whole couple of weeks really.

As soon as I finally realized the problem was in my thought processes and the way I was looking at things, it has been reiterated in the strangest ways, in the strangest places all week long.

It started as a seed, when I decided to choose happiness and productivity over misery and failure. Then it started growing in my mind to where I started seeking the answers and the tools on how to change my faulty thought patterns.

And wallah, all over the place it is showing up.

How very exciting it is. And what a strange and wonderful universe, that gives you the answers once you decide to change your approach and perception. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And I know I'm talking about myself again...but I just don't care! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Weaver,

Knock yourself out, and keep looking, as they say in the Scifi stuff "the answers are out there" . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am very happy for you.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you JL.

I thought all my time here was wasted recently when I realized that some of my beliefs differ from many of those on MB, however today I realized that I actually got what I came here to get.

I needed to know what people who really had it together, from the inside out looked like, what they valued and how they maintained those values. And I needed to see people who actually valued vows and commitment.

And I found that here, more so than I ever would have in my "real world", given I live in a very depressed and alcoholic community. And came from that type of family.

So MB has been a success for me after all.

Breaking the pattern Pep!

Ay know Weaver,

Reading your post made my day. I am so glad that you have found value in being here and that it is helping you.

God Bless,

JL

Faith these were sage words.

They made me examine the reasons why I am here other than to get help myself.

I haven't near completed that examination yet but its an interesting exercise so far.

Its made me admit to myself that I am a bit sick of being needed and relied upon by seemingly everybody in my life. I have EVER been the 'coper and do-er' in my bit of the world.

My experiences through infidelity have given me a new and not wholly pleasant view of people with a 'victim' mentality.

My life TRANSFORMED when you lot kicked my [censored] into doing the brave things that needed to be done. In work this also works, in relationships outside my marriage also.

In the past I have listened time and again to self pitying excuses for inaction, and offered setd of executable instructions for people to do. Or worse, done them myself.

Now, the post-Affair Bob has no time for people who do not even TRY to do the right thing for themselves.

I reread my 'advice' to folks here and it is overwhelmingly exhortations for THEM to take action, not me issuing instructions that absolves the requester of any responsibility if it doesn't work.

I don't keep at the 'volunteer victims' out of pity but out of a desire to see people stop behaving so embarrassingly pathetically. I see people sucking up abuse and whose kids must be infected by their weakness but who will do nothing but moan.

Even if you fail in your objective at least go out fighting !

Pep, you told me when I shouted at a BS using some unforgivably direct language that I should not be so hard on BS who couldn't stand up to the rigours of recovery.

You were right.

My problem is that I cannot discern between "cannot" take the right action and " will not" take the right action.

I need to work on that. It will be less frustrating to me and more use for the requestors too.

I reread my 'advice' to folks here and it is overwhelmingly exhortations for THEM to take action, not me issuing instructions that absolves the requester of any responsibility if it doesn't work.

That is one of the most insightful things I've read in a long time. Thanks, Bob.

Just J,

I have thought more on this.

We have a blame culture. Everthing is somebody's fault.

New BS usually bame themselves for everything. Their poor sad WS was almost FORCED to screw OP behind their back.

OR they blame 'childhood issues' of either the WS or themselves.

We typically refer folks to MB tenets, and they learn that THEY are not to 'blame' for the affair, but that they may have contributed to an unsatisfying marriage. The WS is the one who chose the affair.

So they ask us what to do in ever more specific ways "Should I expose by phone, pager or text message? Should I tell OMS, the boss, his brother, their pastor? "

The more specific the direction from US, the more our fault it is if it doesn;t work.

" I tried plan B like you said and it failed. I only called WS begging twice per day, too"

So in part it IS fear of giving the wrong specific advice bearing in mind we usually know next to bugger all about the real sit of these petitioners - that stops me from DIRECTING them.

But also, it is the MINDSET of self-respect and brave action that is most effective , rather than any specific set of executable actions. It was finding BRAVERY to expose that was the revelation, not the fact that I called OM GF.

If I'd sent her a meek and fearful note, it would not have been nearly as effective as my calling her - holding her attention through her explosion of pain and talking her through what I knew about OMs affair.

That why I exhort to nobility and bravery: sand and detachment rather than " phone this person, say THIS sentence to that person". Knights and tigresses win GOOD marriages back from the teeth of infidelity: people who can execute MB by channeling their anger and fear through righteous indignation and love.

And who take responsibility for their own actions, while weighing up the advice they get in context.

Our repeat sympathy-eaters fail to take any action but soliciting pity and anger from folk here.

I really should leave them alone. Theres nothing I can do. I'm going to try to from now on.

I am sorry.............but reading this has me cracking up in hysterics. That is the honest to goodness truth.....LMFAO.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

NO, in the grand scheme of things, none of this is funny, but I can't help it tonight.

Sour...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />