OK - time to get the 2x4's out, because I'm in a different place on this. I've been reading it from the beginning, and talked about it a little with a fellow MB-er. (I'm not sure if she agrees with my take on this or not!)

Lordslady knows I've been around here for a while. We went through the "dark-days" around the same time and she knows I've been a fan of hers as well. She's beaten herself up pretty good about this, so I'm not going to. However this message is directed more at those who are seeing this as "no big thing, it's OK, etc." I couldn't disagree more. To me - it should be an eye-opener for many of us and we should help keep each other accountable to our own beliefs and morals.

Let me explain it this way: Most of us on here are victims of affairs, and we understand how WE felt during that time. However, through intense study and research - we also have a good idea of the mindset that our xs's had while having the affair. (Irrational behavior, being in a fog, caught up in the moment, just couldn't help myself, etc.) We've heard it all. We know the pain it causes and how whacko our x's seemed. It was so clear to us how our x's could've prevented themselves from having the affairs. ["You should've thought about the consequences well before you agreed to meet at that motel, what did you think was going to happen after he kissed you", and so on.] Now, consider LL's recent event. (Not picking on you here - Lady, just offering some consideration for all of us to think about!) Someone made a reference that LL was "drunk" with emotion, lust whatever. Isn't that what we called "Foggy Behavior" when our x's were doing it?

For those who have no issue with SF while unmarried; this is not for you. However, for those who declare personal boundaries - and then forsake them; is there much difference between our x's actions and our own? And for those who believe in God, scripture, etc. there is clearly no difference in the two.

Probably a few of us have a tendency to believe that we somehow 'deserve' to go a little bit crazy after all we've been through. That just a little taste won't hurt... Now look at the consequences that LL (and possibly a newborn) is facing. I'm just not sure if the risk is worth the gain. (Sound familiar?)

So what do we do? For those of us who do not share the same belief as LL about SF outside M; there is relatively little chance of the consequences that LL is showing because of proper preparation. (LL was not intending to SF - therefore no birth-control, protection, etc.) However for those of us who do share the same belief as LL; shouldn't we check ourselves to be sure we're emotionally prepared? LL, you're great, but I fear for ya girl. Those endorphines get going and make some of us a little crazy. You still seem vulnerable to me and I worry for you.

JMHO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

FR

FR,

I couldn't agree more with your post! And yes, I got caught in the exact "fog" I was worried about (except that I can't call it fog...it was just really total lack of good judgement on my part.)

And now I'm filled with the fear that the one thing I wanted more than just about anything else in my life, the chance at actually having a Christian marriage with a partner who I could trust, who loved me, who wanted to be with me, to share my future with...

If I end up being PG, I have kissed that goodbye forever, and that I find hard to deal with. No man will touch a 40-yr-old with a newborn. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And this may sound cold because all of us are supposed to just jump for joy at the chance of motherhood, but I'm not jumping at it right now. Contrary to what my sis said yesterday, a baby would NOT 'complete me' right now.

So, instead of finding what I desired so badly, one huge mistake may have landed me alone for the rest of my life. And although I know it's becaused I broke God's rules and I deserve every bit of what I get, it's tough to deal with, because you're right--I wasn't on BC because I didn't intend to go that far--because I knew it wasn't right (at least at one point I did).

LL

[color:"blue"] Fishracer [/color]
Thank you for putting a different spin on this - one that everyone, despite whatever their gender, religious belief, or boundaries are! You have totally put this into perspective as to how this should affect ALL of us who are betrayed spouses. (Not to minimize LL's situation.)

[color:"blue"] LL [/color] - I have been reading this thread since you started it, but didn't respond quick enough and now you have your own posse! I'm not one for psycho babble but sometimes you need to "command your soul" and this may be one of those times. Don't focus on the negative (possibly being PG). Have you decided what to do about guy #3 (or was it #4? the out of town guy)

Avondale,

Oh wow, which out of town guy are we even talking about? There have been 2. It's all really confusing.

For the rundown since the beginning:

Guy #1 - 2x married; awesome eyes & smile but we freaked each other out. It was for the best. He's history.

Guy #2 - doesn't share my beliefs. Was supposed to just be someone to hang out with. Made a mess of that--he's the topic of this thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Guy #3 - thought he was 5'8", wasn't. Date #1 was awkward beyond belief for any number of reasons. History.

Guy #4 - he's the out-of-towner from northern Iowa who shared a lot in common with me. However, one meeting was enough. I think he was ready to get married, to me..or to anyone. And I share the same name as his deceased sister-in-law who hung herself after his wife left him for her husband. Too freaky. Also history.

Guy #5 - That'd be the eastern Iowa out-of-towner I'm currently emailing. Stumbled onto him totally by accident as I was not searching out of my area, and actually just sent him a very innocent email asking where the pictures in his profile were taken, because they looked like California. (I was right, they were.) He was also not looking out of his area, so it's all been sort of weird, but we've written novels to each other and had a couple very long phone calls. He's suggested driving to my city on Wednesday and meeting at one of the new restaurants I've not eaten at yet.

The dilemma--what if I meet this guy and really like him and he likes me and wants to see me again, and then find out horror-of-horrors, that I'm PG. That would be really cruel of me, wouldn't it? How do I tell some guy, "Yeah, I want to meet you, but got messed up in this thing with someone I'm not interested in a future with, and this is what happened."

But of all the guys I've met so far or corresponded with, he is by far the one I'd be most interested in (as evidenced by our first phone conversation -- 189 minutes! We both had to plug our cell phones in during the conversation because they were dying.)

So here I am, messed up as all get out. Wondering if God is saying, "Just give it up, LL."

Advice??

LL

LL..How do I tell some guy, "Yeah, I want to meet you, but got messed up in this thing with someone I'm not interested in a future with, and this is what happened."

Knight...you tell em like this LL (and shame on you if you don't)... guy #5 "Yeah, I want to meet you, but got messed up in this thing with someone I'm not interested in a future with, and this is what happened."

Honesty is always the best policy (in relationships), and the truth will set you free with this guy (his choice, let him make it..not you)...for once let someone else decide their own "feelings" will ya LL, just once, try it maybe you will see what I mean.

And am I supposed to tell him BEFORE I meet him, WHEN I meet him, or what? Do I call him and tell him tonight? Do I email him--seems a little impersonal. If I tell him before, he'll bolt, and I might not even be PG. If I tell him when I meet him, that's cruel to make him drive 140 miles one way to hear what a loser I am.

At this point, I think I choose going back and being married to my alcoholic husband again because at least if I did screw up and end up in bed with him, it wasn't wrong, and he'd had a vasectomy so there weren't going to be more kids. (Oh yeah, that's not an option...thank you OW.)

LL

Could you tell him that something has come up. This is a terrible week for you to meet. You know you wouldn't enjoy it. You are really sorry but you need to reschedule. If he asks what happened, tell him it's a little family emergency or that it's personal. You don't have to give him a further explanation.

You can't do it this week.

Let it go at that.

If he presses you for a further explanation, given where you are in your relationship - remember you haven't even met yet - then he is not being respectful. And you might know part of what you are looking to discover about this man.

[color:"red"] JUST SAY NO!!!! [/color]

Those pesky consequences, they are just sooooo annoying. You created this dilemma LL, so must face the music....well, if you have any integrity anyways, and you seem to. What are the facts


1. You want to see what's what with this guy...so why would you not see him?

2. He is vesting time and resources in you, you have an obligation not to misrepresent yourself....and unfortuneately you have discovered some serious behavioral shortcomings...that it is reasonable to assume might affect his "choice" re you.

Rather than trying to control this, just say what I quoted (you)above, you have been honest, and he will do whatever he will do... what better solution can their be? This isn't a big deal LL, you have little vested yet, have a chance to start something off on a solid foundation (truthfullness), why wouldn't you do so? This isn't about being judged by him, asking for his understanding or forgiveness...you are just conveying relevant information about your behavior and emotional state.

However, if you choose not to deal with another prospect at this point, that is ok too...as long as it isn't out of fearfullness/shame/avoidance... but about you just wanting to get your act together. Yep, may pass up a chance, so there is your options, be a little vulnerable or not. Frankly I think you have more to gain by being open and honest in this case than not...but that's just me.

Sooner or later you will have to tell someone all of your sexual history anyways, if you get very far into a relationsip (part of that pesky radical honesty stuff)...so why not get it out of the way now....since the crisis is at hand.

Okay, I'm sure I just screwed up the best thing that's happened to me in a while and that I should have met the guy in person and THEN had this conversation. Instead, because it's too late to call him, I simply sent an email:



I hate myself. I really, really do. I will be alone for the rest of my life. I'm 99.9% sure of it.

LL

LL:

Cinderella is correct in her post on all fronts. And while Knight's honesty is admirable (and I agree that honesty is the best policy) I don't feel that means to share every personal detail with someone you just met & haven't dated yet. I suggest that you postpone all dating until you get results on PG and STD. This way you know what you're dealing with. Once you get the results (and if negative on both fronts), then it's time to include in a conversation with "Mr. Potential" that you made a drastic mistake a few weeks ago - one that you deeply regret and it was an eye-opener for you. [If he presses - which he may and like Knight says - he has a right to, then tell him you had a weak moment, had SF before you were really ready to and you needed time to deal with it.] He will understand. He may or may not like it - but he will understand. Then have a serious talk about your beliefs and boundaries, and his.

Now - about what's happened: You made a serious mistake that could have lasting effects. But it's done and you can only affect what happens now. So it's time for you to forgive yourself, ask God to forgive you and move forward. Don't forget it, but don't dwell on it. No more negativity! Be sure you've learned from it and that your future actions will show this. Eyes on the future, with a new plan.

And lastly (I've thought a lot about this): Please reconsider your boundaries. In your case, your boundaries were not in jeopardy until the moment that SF began to happen. That's too late due to emotions, heat, desire, human chemicals, etc. Reset your boundaries to an "earlier" time and/or event. Reset them so that it's reasonable to have confidence you can (and will) enforce them no matter what! New boundaries may be that you won't be alone with a man after 9:00 PM, or no more than one glass of wine when alone, or perhaps even a curfew of sorts. Whatever you come up with, know that it will work. Just be sure that the new boundaries are reasonably enforceable by your logic and don't wait until your emotions are flying all over the place. Make sense?

Good Luck LL. Keep us informed.

FR

LL,

You need to borrow my baseball bat? Maybe a stick with chains on it?

If you are going to keep beating the crap out of yourself do it right.

You crossed your personal and religious boundaries, you only need to ask for forgiveness and you did right?

Then what gives you the right to keep on hurting yourself? Do you feel the need to do so because you've been a "bad girl"?

The pregnancy issue is another item(frankly I'd be more worried about STD's), The mission was scrubbed , so to speak, right? The odds of you being pregnant are so remote they are probably incalculable and involve so many freakin' zero's your adding machine can't show you the decimal points.

So you may be pregnant, is this helping you? I mean this frantic breakdown, is it helping you deal or cope with this in any way? I'd say no, I'd say it is making things worse.

Instead of going totally ape-[censored] about what happened, why not sit down and re-think the boundaries, write them down, keep them in your purse, or pocket, in your shoe(in case you take them off) or whatever will work and focus on that. Something positive LL.

Something about this guy you ended up with. I keep seeing the words "predator" popping up, slick predator or whatever people are referring to him as. I don't know him but I do know this much....

You stated your boundaries and why.
You knew up front he does not share your religious perspective.
You also made it clear on here he does not share your propensity for Christ.
You all made out or whatever and one thing led to another...
As you also pointed out, he did not force you to drink, slip Roofies into your pop, or force you into his bed against your will.

Sooooo, Why are people here calling him a predator? WHy are some of you calling this guy a predator?

He does not share in the religious lifestyle, does not endorse no sex before marriage, and he had a seemingly willing partner when things got hot and heavy.

I don't see that as predatory in the least. If LL wanted him to stop (which she did eventually) I am sure if she said something it would have been over (like it was when she DID say something).

That makes him a predator?

That makes this guy dangerous?

No, it makes him dangerous to LL because she crossed her boundaries willingly for him.

What I find more dangerous is some of you self-rightous(sp?) people bad mouthing and expecting something from someone that DOES NOT share your viewpoint on sex, religion, and morals.

Here's a perfect example of closed-minded and misplaced "holier than thou" attitudes. From somebody that still will not fess up to their real identity nor even hint at the truth of their sitch...and is leading the siren song of beating down LL.....just plain sick of it

"Those pesky consequences, they are just sooooo annoying. You created this dilemma LL, so must face the music....well, if you have any integrity anyways, and you seem to. .......and unfortuneately you have discovered some serious behavioral shortcomings...that it is reasonable to assume might affect his "choice" re you."

What Smarmy, self-indulgent, manipulative, scummy, overbearing bullcrap!

LL this is NOT the the kind of thing you need to be reading or worrying about. It isn't helpful nor is it constructive, nor do you have to answer to man (mans laws because you didn't break any) for what you feel is a trespass on Gods Will.

Work your plan, ask for forgiveness, set it right with God and stop beating yourself down!

Stop it! You don't walk on water, you can't feed the masses with some fish and bread, and I know for certain if you die you will not be resurected and walk amongst us again.

Sorry if I went off on a tangent here but you've done enough beating on your own head, whats done is done and cannot be undone no matter how many times you crack yourself with a bat for it. If you are truly repentent and are upset with the choices you have made then fix that within yourself.

God has already forgiven you, because he loves you, because he knows you, and if you are willing to accept that God knows you and knows the number of hairs on your head, then you must accept that he forgives you and if HE can then you should too.

Much Love LL

RBM

Anytime you willingly violate someones boundaries you are a predagor of some kind....sure, predators come in all flavors from violent rapists to self-indulgent opportunists... the notion this guy was not acting selfishly to get something he wanted from LL is disturbing reborn...but you clearly have a different moral/ethical outlook on life than others, also your barely veiled implication that promiscuity and dishonesty are not character shortcomings is easily refuted. LL will listen to whatever advice she wants, and I don't really care much I get under your skin...I will pick smary every time, that is how healthy relationships and healthy people live.

You did the right thing LL, methods can vary, I probably would have opted for conversation over email...but if you really are going to start walking the walk, rather than talking the talk...then trust God will ya....you did the right thing and the outcome will be what it will be , give the angst over this up to God...right? You cast your bead on the waters, your conscience is clear, and satan keeps messing with ya throug your anxiety of being alone, missing the "one", etc. If this is the one, God won't let you miss him...as long as you do what's "right" not what is expedient, or manipulative (such as concealing your circumstances at the moment). You had two concrete choices...see him (and tell the truth) or withdraw for the moment (and exlaining is optional) until you felt ready to date again. Those were your only honest/healthy choices.

I agree hating yourself is foolish, remorse over your choice is fine, for a time...but you have heard this alot allready, just reminding you...beating up yourself is prideful in it's own way, and certainly a rejection of God's Grace...so stop, ok? I know it is a coping mechanism for you, (we all do it, especially those of us who have some moral understanding about life, but it must stop, it interferes with true ownership of the circumstances).

My guess is the guy will express some concern, but value your honesty tremendously, you did a very vulnerable, but strong thing...and I think he will still want to see you...maybe not, he will dither, as he should, but honesty and vulnerability are extremely strong draws to men of character.

Well guys/gals...

I'm regretting sending that email last night, just like I'm regretting much of the other stuff I've done.

I really agree that I should have somehow just postponed the meeting, but I'm not good at saying "family emergency" because it feels like I'm making something up and in a sense, lying. And I don't lie.

Sending something via email is so darned impersonal. And then I didn't need to give him so much info in it. I needed to sleep on it, and address it today, but today is only one day before when he was planning on meeting me.

At any rate, he didn't call back last night (not that I'm surprised, as it was nearly 11:30pm when I sent it), but nor did he send an email response or any acknowledgement this morning that he got it (and he's usually pretty good about checking his email in the morning).

So much for thoughts of meeting a really interesting, intelligent, shares-my-beliefs, in-shape, great sense of humor, down-to-earth, almost-doctorate type guy who specializes in the very field I'm so interested in because of my daughter's issues.

I rule at blowing things to bits! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

LL

Um...

My opinion, lordslady: There's nothing wrong with that e-mail you sent. No, I don't think you owe this man a full disclosure. Not now, at least. However, I don't see anything wrong with giving it to him anyway. If he can't handle the truth, that tells you something. If he can handle it, well, that tells you something else.

Of course, I'm the kind of guy who ignores all the relationship advice that tells you to play games and "keep them guessing." I suppose there's some reason for that advice, but I would rather just be open and honest and live with the consequences.

I do not expect "righteous" behavior from a man who has different morals. I expect him to live up - or down - to his own moral code.

If a man with a moral system permitting him to engage in extra-marital sex chooses to do so with someone who has a similar moral system and who has given him no indication that he is violating any boundary, I am not surprised or offended, and I do not call his behavior predatory.

However, if a man's moral code encourages him to take advantage of someone else's weakness in order to fulfill his own desires at that other person's considerable expense, and if he is so self-absorbed as to be unable to recognize the cost to that other person, I expect behavior from him which aligns with his morality - behavior which I think is very much appropriate to call "predatory."

Gentlemen, healthy discussion is permitted...but this is MY thread and I say there will be no nastiness or name calling (unless it's me, about myself). I'm saying that in a joking fashion, because we're all adults and we have freedom of speech, but nonetheless, let's try and be nice about it. While we may not agree with each other's beliefs, we need to at least respect that this is who they are.

Gnome,

You are right--no explanation was "owed" to the potential guy at this point. I have no relationship with him other than via email and a few phone calls. But things were eating me alive, so he ended up getting more of an explanation than he may have needed.

As for the "predatory" thing--while the more I think of how things happened and what's been said or not said since, the more it makes me angry, I still refuse to actually say he was a "predator". RM is right on this one, he had been clear on HIS views of premarital sex, and he was with someone who appeared at that point to be a pretty willing participant. His only big mistake was to not use protection. I call that self-centered and immature--because he wanted something without thinking through the consequences, but not predatory. I truly do think he thought we were at a different point in this relationship than I did.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what he is or isn't. What's done is done. I just need to be honest enough now to say, "Mike, I can't continue seeing you...on any level. We are not good for each other."

--------------------------------------------------------
Now for the other news:

I am no less than amazed, almost shocked. The guy I'm to meet tomorrow night did get my emails this morning and called me just as I was getting ready for work. I was late getting in. We talked for almost an hour.

I spit it all out--after much stumbling, and not breathing, and nervous 100-mile-per-hour chatter. It was a very difficult thing to do, given that we aren't even in a relationship. But I told him, honesty is very important to me, and if I'm even thinking about a relationship with someone, I want to start it off on the right foot.

I won't go into the details of the conversation and bore anyone, but suffice it to say, although he admits that if I'm PG it is a very big issue, he said he understands what happened, how it could have happened being the first time I've had to face this boundary since my DV, and still wants to meet me tomorrow night.

He told me that I'm making way more out of it right now than he is, and his feeling is that I should be more worried about STD's, too, than PG. (I'm worried about both, but until I can have a blood PG test, that still remains my biggest worry!) I told him I fully intended to be tested for STD's, just as I was after I discovered my xh's affair.

It was a pretty intimate conversation to be having with someone I barely know, but maybe was the best thing to do at this point, because I do feel at least a sense of relief that he is aware of the situation.

LL

Hey LL,

Well, I am so glad that you were able to tell him the truth. The good thing about this is that he knows exactly what he is getting: A sweet, intelligent, mature woman who is willing to let him know everything about her so he can make an informed decision about whether to see her.

I think you are learning that you are actually a pretty good catch. I salute you.

GDP-

Not directed at you

nuff said

Talked to my ob/gyn's office this afternoon, and the bad news is...

1) They won't do a blood PG test on me. The doctors don't do them anymore. They feel because of the cost, and the fact that insurance won't pay, that urine tests are just as effective. However, in order to get a good test, I have to be a week late on my period. So, there is no way of finding out anything until at least a week from Thursday, which would be the day my period is due.

2) The Imitrex I took for my migraine yesterday morning--BAD! Can't take Imitrex when pregnant. Has been proven at doses not much higher than mine to cause a host of skeletal, vascular and other defects in animals. Great, just great. If I didn't already have a higher chance of chromosome defects if I'm pregnant, just because of my age, I've now added this twist. And what the heck do I do if I get a migraine? I can't work, or parent, or function with them. I can barely drive. They were the one time I counted on my xh to take over for an evening, because I just couldn't. Imitrex has been a godsend! And I get migraines as frequently as once a week sometimes in the summer.

3) I'm supposed to call my family doctor (and admit all this crap to him) and see if he wants to pull me off the Lexapro, because it's not ideal to take either. The other time I tried weaning off Lexapro was in February and the effects about drove me crazy. I went back on. They're the same effects that other people complain about--dizziness, total lack of concentration, nausea, 'zap' sensations in your limbs when you move, and extreme anxiety. Not exactly what I need at this second.

4) I've been cramping all day, and actually part of yesterday too. I don't remember this happening until a couple days before I start my period generally. Guess what..it can be a sign of very early PG, as in when it's implanting into the uterus. Granted, it would be a little early for that, based on my reading--should be more like tomorrow or Thursday, but it is certainly possible.

5) The nurse at the ob/gyn office also confirmed that yes, it is quite possible for me to be PG even if we didn't finish.

I think I'll try and enjoy my ONE AND ONLY meeting I'll have with Guy #5 tomorrow night, then go home and cry and resign myself to a life alone with no partner, no companionship, no more SF--ever, because I'm probably PG with some baby I don't even want by some guy I don't want a future with, and the guy I might have wanted a future with will move on to someone worthwhile who is not stuck with an infant or fat and pregnant.

Yes, I'm crabby. This is just not something I'm wanting to deal with, and I know I have to. And I'm very angry at myself for being so stupid. A few brief minutes of what may have been fun at the time but is nothing but sickening now, because of what it may be doing to my life.

LL