Hope, I am just amazed at how well you are doing. Yes, you are right, I am impressed with your exposures and even more impressed with your very adept Plan A.

I didn't check back in with you, because frankly, I got your screen name confused with several others that are similar.[the verbs as screen names keep me perpetually confused <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> ]

But, you are in great hands and just doing a super job of saving your marriage. It is so great to see someone use the program so well. Good job!

ML, I would never have exposed my WW the way I did if it wasn't for your insistance that it was best for the marriage. I was one of the hardest things I ever had to do, but in retrospect I don't regret it at all. I can honestly say that exposing my WW has produced results. The results were scary and questionalble in the beginning, but it has effectively blasted her EA with a light so powerful, she can no longer keep it secret. Every action she takes now will be questioned, not only by me, but by her work and family. She can still decide to do whatever she wants, but now the consequences are more real.

The other added benefit of exposure, is that I do not have to conceal my feelings anymore. I no longer have to make excuses and I can openly talk to my family and in-laws about what has and is happening in our M. Prior to the exposure it seems I was bearing the laod of her EA, now she has to bear it. Even though she still denies the EA, the exposure has forced her to accept the possibility that her actions are wrong and will not be condoned by myself her family or her work.

With your help, a light was focused on her EA, now it is up to her to make the ultimate choice. Even though I wan't her to choose our M over the OM, I cannot make that choice for her. It must be her decision only.

I love my WW dearly and wish it never had come to this, but now I have a much better understanding of the issues that compounded over time, manifested into this EA. It doesn't excuse her for the EA, but it forced me to make changes in myself that will be for the better, now matter what the outcome.

I remember reading a few posts about how a WW changes her values and moral outlook to justify the A.

Now that I look back (pre d-day) I remember my WW saying things like:

"I don't deserve you"
"my daughter will be able to do whatever she wants"
"my daughter will be ablt to go away with her boyfriend"
"if I got married now I would just live together"
"I know why she is emotionally upset, she doesn't want to be told who her boyfriend should be" refering to her neice
"I'm not a very good mother" talking to my son when he was sick and she came home late
Lots of "who cares" or lack of empathy for others.

There were many other statements like these that were out of character for her and were red flags. It's funny how she would say "it's not you, it's me" or "I don't deserve you" or "I need space" prior to d-day and exposure and now she is blaming me for much that is wrong by bringing up the times that I neglected her in the past. Talk about confusion.

You know, this is one of the most frustrating things on this forum. Most are terrified of exposure because all they can see is the immediate fallout, which is fury and anger. They can't see beyond their fear of the WS anger, which is a huge impediment. They don't know what happens after the anger blows over. But we see it all the time here, so we know it works.

And don't get me wrong, I know it's hard! But so are affairs. I credit you for having the courage to do the right thing even though it was tough as ******. That says alot about you, my friend. And now you are starting to reap the benefits. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Update.

Well yesterday my WW called me a work and told me while the day before yesterday was a good day, she was feeling a little disturbed yesterday. She indicated it was because she felt her mother still was pressuring her to quit her job. I just let her talk a little and didn't offer any suggetions at this point. I could tell when I returned home from work that she was frustrated since she was taking a deep breath every once and a while. She would do this a lot in the weeks leading up to d-day. These are the time where I feel most uncertain and scared for our M since I don't know exactly why she feels stressed. IS this a sign of withdrawl or is she having conflicting thoughts. She also had lunch with her girlfriend yesterday so there is also the possiblilty that they discussed the OM and that may have stirred her emotions somewhat.

In the past I would ask what is wrong only to get a curt response. This time I just let her deal with it on her own and continued Plan A. She seemed to be a little better by the end of the evening after we helped clean up the kids toys (a disaster area). We engaged in a little pillow talk about fun stuff (i.e. kids, old movies, favourite foods) and then went to bed. Sometimes we have great little coversations and I just want to hold her, but it pains me to hold back.

She is in a predominately TAKER mode right now, however, her GIVER still breaks through now and then. Conversely, I am in complete GIVER mode.

Since she said I was "smothering her" and "needy and clingy" I sleep on my side of the bed now and don't make any attemps at touching. I pray for the day when she comes over to my side and puts her head on my chest. I miss things like that soo much. Today I plan on bringing home Chineses food for dinner since I know she loves chicken balls.

I have ordered His Needs and Her Needs and should be receiving it very shortly. I will try to get her to fill out the questionaires, especially EN, since I really want to make sure I focus on her top EN's.

Hope - Sounds like you are doing an excellent job. Just keep it up.

I don't know what her EN's are, but a very nice new dress, and Chinese chicken balls would work for me. Hehe - just kidding.

I see one need from your posting - conversation about her work. I would zero in on that a little. And when she remarks that you never cared about it before, I would reply - "I made many mistakes before. I took things for granted" (or something along those lines, whatever is true in your case).

You are doing well. Just keep hanging out on your side of the bed at night. Let her come to you. When she does, you might stick with just holding and comforting her. See? Something to look forward to.

You should see how beautiful she looks in that new dress <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I didn't tell her that because I'm afraid she won't accept my compliment right now.

For the first time in a long time she has discussed issues from her work with me at the dinner table over the past two days. I just listened and asked some questions to get some details. I also commented on the issues and took an interest in what she was saying. I basically LISTENED to her, which I never did before. I hope she continues to seek me for conversation.

I am a little hesistant to ask her about her work, because pre d-day i would ask "how was your day" and she would sometimes get stressed and take those deep breaths. I don't know why she does this. Was she thinking of the OM or stressed at me smothering her? These past two days she has initiated the conversation, but I would like to take upon myself to start. Maybe I will trying talking about my day first and then put the ball in her court.

She doesn't trust me right now because of the exposure and snooping, so I'm trying to rebuild her trust a little everyday. I think if I tell her something about me that is very personal (i.e. feelings, worries, hopes) she may begin to see that I am honest and trustworthy again.

I am so thankful for this site since it allows me to blow off steam and discuss how I am feeling. I don't really have anyone I can talk to about my situation, so this site is invaluable. The feedback and support from all of you is priceless. Thank you all.

Hope,

May I offer an opinion. I suspect it might conflict with some others here but it is your call to do with them as you wish.

First, the smothering thing is STANDARD WS fog talk. It means "it pains me to lie to you so would you please back off and let me live my fantasy." So while backing off can be a good thing, if she looks beautiful in a new dress tell she looks beautiful in the new dress.

Second you are definitely in plan A as you are totally in the giver mode, but you I want you to realize this is why plan A can never work in a marriage and is a short term strategy and why plan B is necessary. Ones taker will eventually need to see the light of day. I am not telling you to go to plan B, but I am suggesting that you understand it, and be prepared to use it if necessary.

Plan B is to give your "giver" a break and save love for recovery, because recovery is very hard. You can see being in the total "giver" mode is trying and takes your strength.

Now for some more advice besides compliment her when it is warrented. You said
Don't worry about rebuilding her trust. When she is through with withdrawal she will see why you did this. You see her actions are confirming that you did in fact catch her in a affair and a rather deep one in some respects. But, here is the advice I would offer you. The next time she starts to bring up you disclosing this. Let her finish her diatribe, and then calmly look her in the eyes and tell her this:

I know I have not been the worlds best H, but I am working on my failings. I know disclosure hurt you and I agonized over it but... I want you to know a few things:

1. You can trust that if you, our kids, our marriage are in trouble I will do ANYTHING to protect them, you or the marriage. Trust that.

2. You can trust that I love you deeply and will endure a great deal of pain for you, but trust that I will not tolerate being lied to either directly or by omission.

3. You can trust that I told everyone I told for ONE reason and ONE reason only, to solicit their help in saving our marriage, because I love you deeply.

4. You can trust that if and when you quit grieving the loss of your affair, I will forgive you, love you and do my best to be a better H than I have been.

5. You can trust that I expect you to help me be the best person I can be, but that I will NOT allow our marriage and family to come apart without a fight.

Then thank her for listening to you, and tell her you do love her more deeply than she realizes and you are very tired of hurting. Then simply walk away and give her her space.

Deliver the message often that you will protect your family and she can trust that.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Thanks very much for the advice. My problem is I don't know if she is in withdrawl right now or not. You see she has been home from work for 1 week and will be home for another week before returning to work and eventual contact with OM. Whe said she won't quit her job and I'm afraid I will loose some of the progress I've made once she contacts OM at work. Part of the problem is that I can't fully prove an EA even though some of the phone recordings with her girfriend are very suggestive. I don't know what to do. I understand that for recovery to begin, NC must be established. I will be receiving HNHN in the mail soon, should I offer it to her for reading or just read it and leave it out?

Thanks

read it and leave it out.

Don't try 2 educate her, it won't work.

Leaving the stuff you're reading out for her 2 find, gives her the chance 2 check it out when you're not around - in case she might feel embarrassed 2 ask you directly.

Of course, if she asks, by all means answer her! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Hope,

2L is right in my way of thinking, but I really think you need to deliver the speech to her and do it every time the issue of disclosure comes up. I think her behavior alone makes it obvious that something was/is going on. Your tape convinced her BIL, further, if it is "just an early EA" you still did the right thing before it became deeper.

Quit apologizing for doing what you needed to do to protect your family. It is time you stood up and accepted the situation and accepted that you acted properly EVEN if she does NOT believe it and EVEN if there was no affair. You see you felt there was an affair and you responded.

In reality there clearly was an affair going on and you have the tapes to prove it. Further, she was keeping secrets from you, and 2L has a great discourse on the difference between privacy and secrets. Ask him to give it to you.

2L is right you cannot educate your W, but you can surely tell her your boundaries and your motivations for taking the actions you have taken. That is not educating her, because you would not be telling her what to do, you are just telling her what you WILL do. Those are called boundaries.

Time for you to realize you did well, and you did the right thing EVEN IF (which I doubt) there was no EA. She needs to hear what she CAN trust and that is you and your love for her.

God Bless,

JL

Here's the stuff JL was referring 2:

"The Difference Between Secret And Private

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree.

The Difference Between Truth and Honesty

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today’s date, whether or not you’re married.

Honesty is about feelings. If you’re honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability."

-ol' 2long

2L & JL,

Thanks very much for the insight and support. That is what makes this site a must for M in trouble (or even for those that aren't). 2L, that very clearly defines the difference between privacy and secrecy. I will endeavour to use that the next time my WW questions my snooping.

I have also just ordered the book Love Busters and can't wait to read it. I wish I had this information several years ago, but then again I didn't think there was a probelm until just recently.

Update,

Well last night I found out my WW is still talking to OM and you could hear her happiness when she talks to him. It reminds me of how she sounded when we first met. It kind of made me sick to my stomach.

So last night I restated my boundaries and she swore she had no feelings for him. I just don't buy it. She said if she found out I was taping her phone conversations she would leave me. She brought up more of the pain from the past and her resnetment and tried to listen and tell her that I was sorry for all her pain. There just seems to be too much resentment to overcome. Every time I told her that I was doing this because I loved her she said if you loved me you wouldn't hurt me like you have.

At the end of the night she said she missed the intamacy and asked if I would snuggle with her. We did and it let to SF after which she didn't want to snuggle any more. That hurt me and we went to sleep. In the morning she seemed in a good mood and then she got a message from her work that there was another commplaint about her and OM. That was me the called to see what the status was. Well now she is super uspet with me and stressed big time. Things seemed to be going a little better and then this happened. This is so frustrating, you feel like giving up sometimes. I don't know what to do anymore since she wont trust me at all now. I feel disgusted because I heard her give him our home phone number so they can't trace it.

I need some adive...please

Are you sure the new complaint is you? Based upon the research I did for you, your WW"s employer uses the same third party vendor that mine does for receiving calls of this type. If you call them to follow-up, it does not register as a new call, it registers and is reported as a follow up call. If this was called a "new" complaint, it is possible someone else doesn't like WW and OM's behavior, either.

Regards,

BB

I spoke to my WW this evening and told her that I just called on Monday to follow up my original complaint. That was five days before her manager called her with this new complaint. Usually they get answers withing 5 days, so you may be right Brit's Brat that this is a new complaint. Wouldn't that just be splendid! I just wanted to know what has been done. If that qualifies as a new complaint then so be it, like you stated BB it shouldn't. It will be interesting to see what this is about.

I notice a lot more babble when she is upset. One second she is saying she will leave me if she finds me recording her calls, then she says "I love you too". I think she is sinking deeper into the fog right now. The only way out is for her to quit her job, but that is not an option right now.

Sometimes she says things that makes me think she wants to believe my feelings are for real, but doens't want to accept it, like...

"Show me how you would love me"
"What things would you do to make me feel loved"
"What do you love about me"

I think she may be fishing for evidnece that my deep love for her is real.

I can't believe how bad she has made me out to be. What happened to all of the positive things I did. I know I neglected her, but she makes me sound like it was malisious and intentional. Is she trying to justify her EA?

Oh god ya she is trying to justify her behavior. In fact she probably is also rewriting marriatal history too.

The way our company works, we get the complaint as soon as the call center receives it and we send it on to the appropriate person for investigation. If this is with respect to your call, I would have expected her manager to have called her that same day or the next day, not five days later.

Regards,

BB

Yes she is trying to justify her EA and at your expense. Learn how to 'reverse babble' and when she states like you said above, let her know that it is her job to make you feel safe not you make her feel safe. Give her back her babble and don't carry her burdends. The A is her doing and is NOT your fault.

L.

htw:

"I can't believe how bad she has made me out to be. What happened to all of the positive things I did. I know I neglected her, but she makes me sound like it was malisious and intentional. Is she trying to justify her EA? "

Orchid and I talked about something like this on the phone yes2rday when she called in 2 Pep's gathering in Burbank.

My own W has just recently started 2 really see and appreciate the stuff I've been doing all these years. It 2k a meeting with a DV mediator 2 spark this change, and it's taking time, even still for the seed 2 blossom.

Look, all M's have problems, but it's important 2 remember that once a WS becomes a WS, the problems become magnified and used as justification for the A, no matter how small they might be. And for a very long time after the A comes 2 light, it won't matter what you do 2 try 2 "change yourself" and make amends.

But the thing 2 do is 2 keep doing those things. Someday she'll come out of the fog and wonder what she was thinking... ...redhat said something 2 that effect yes2rday, based on conversations he had with SH. Even2ally, all As end. Some of us can wait for that, some can't, or decide they just don't want 2.

-ol' 2long
p.s. I had more 2 say, but I'll have 2 get back 2 you. Just got a call. My dad passed away this am.