That sounds great, conversation is a lost art. People nowadays are used to phone, text, video etiquette, but we've lost some of the nuances of actually conversing face to face.

Here's a few advanced techniques...think about using "how come?" rather than "why?" I don't know what it is, it just sounds better. And if she starts to cry, grab a tissue, but let her cry...no touching her or hugging her unless she asks, or you ask her if it is OK. Crying is a release for us testosterone-challenged, and we often feel better afterwards. Hugs and touching will often stop our crying...too soon.

Remember to not get defensive if she is angry, crying, or emotional...we have an instinct that tells us we have to let these emotions out, even though it may seem like it...it's not directed at you...just a release...we WILL feel better afterwards.

That must be why after each time we have the relationship talks and she cries, she is more approachable afterwards. I am starting to understand now. I alwasy thought her emotional anger was directed towards me during these conversations. I never would have thought that she just needed to release.

Then if she feels better after these types of emotional converstations why should BS keep them to a minimum (i.e. less R talk)? Is it too much to deal with at one time?

HTW

Is there any possibility you could leave the kids with someone and take her shoes shopping? Okay, I am shallow, but that would work for me. Shoes shopping involves a lot more than it seems. After all, she would have to try on the shoes, see how they look, check with you to see if you like them, etc.

Then maybe you could go out for a bite to eat, and discuss the shoes.

Well yesterday was a little better than the day before. Upon arriveing home, my kids came to hug and kiss me at the door and I said hi to my WW. She still seemed cold and distant. We had dinner and I asked her questions about her day with the kids. She wasn't very enthusiastic, but she wasn't ignoring me either. She has been cleaning the whole house top to bottom the past two days so I said "you must have been tired this morning?", she asked why in very confused way, to which I replied "becasue you have been working so hard at cleaning the house over the past couple of days" (JL, that's my appreciation LB deposit!).

She asked me if I had scheduled the MC session yet and I told her no since I was waiting for some time to settle as she suggested. She also asked me what I used to record her phone conversations to which I explained. I'm not sure why she wanted to know this, probably to prevent it from happening again. Everytime she made a negative remark, I remained positive, calm and nice to her, no LB'ing.

After dinner I helped clean up with the dishes and played with the kids while my WW made some cookies for her brother's wedding next weekend. I put on some songs and danced with my kids. We had a great time. That is one thing the OM will never be able to compete with me, family commitment. We were all supposed to go the the library, but it got late so she said "you can go and I will give the kids a bath". I went and picked up some kids books and a book for myself called "What's so Amazing about Grace", by Philip Yancey. It has some wonderful stories about grace. Really, plan A is all about grace in that you are giving and loving with no expectations in return. I also brought home a coffee for her and left it on the kitchen counter (she loves coffee and another LB deposit).

Finally I put the kids down and lay down in bed to read this new book and when she comes to bed she says "thank you for the coffee". Wow, that was the first time she has said thank you to me in a very long time. I was shocked and just said "you're welcome". Maybe she is noticing my kindness and thoughtfulness. During the night she made some contact with me (legs touching) which felt wonderful (I know it sounds corny, but it did). I didn't try to approach her at all (no smothering), just slept on my side of the bed to let her know I'm here when and if you need me.

This morning I got up for work and covered her with the blanket as she was somewhat exposed. I am trying to be caring, thoughtful and kind to her and eventually when she opens up a little more I can begin to expand the conversation and become a little more affectionate. Right now the affectionate things that I am doing are peripheral since I don't want to push her away. I was thinking of kissing her on the forehead before going to work, but I changed my mind since I'm not sure if she would appreciate that right now.

So that was my night in a nutshell. Better than the day before and hopefully tonight will be even better.

I plan on calling Steve Harley for MC between my WW and I in a couple of weeks. Does anyone know what he might say to us given the fact that I suspect and EA between my WW on OM at work while she denies it and says they are only good friends. Will Steve tell her she needs to impliment NC for the marriage to work? She will see him 2 days out of the week, but that is still 2 dyas too much in my book.

I want to ask my wife again to see if she would consider changing her role in the company so the contact stops or should I just tell her she needs to stop contact for the marriage to work?

Will Steve talk to both of us together or seperately to gather information? Any info would be helpful.

Thanks.

That sounds GREAT!! It's a matter of baby steps...chipping away at the fog and fantasy. She WANTS to hate you. She has fantasized in her mind htat youi are uncaring and there is a fantasy romance out there waiting for her. I HATE romance novels. They set a person up to believe that R are like the novels...read one one time...ugh. Sure, an R is like a romance novel IN THE BEGINNING, but after the newness wears off...then the deep emotional connection happens...

Keep doing the little things. I got quite a bit out of "Men are form Mars, Women are from Venus." The man has it RIGHT ON when it comes to women. We are wired differently, and what may SEEM like a mistake to do with us, is actually the right thing to do... He wrote that men and women keep score differently...I guess this goes along with the LB units...women score EVERYTHING as ONE point. You buy us a car...it's one point, you buy us a single rose, it's one point. Men make the mistake of buying large expensive gifts thinking this will hold us over for awhile...that it's worth 500 or a thousand points...but it's the small, seemingly insignificant, on a consistent basis (every day?) that fill our LB.

And compliment, compliment, compliment. Make them real...not just "You look nice," but rather, "When I leave in the morning and see you sleeping, you look like an angel." Or, "The house looks GREAT! I know you worked very hard to clean it, you make it look easy, and no one could clean the house the way you do it."

I have never counseled with Steve or Jennifer, but many folks on here have given reports. WHat SEEMS to happen (your mileage may vary) is the first session is factfinding, they get as much information as possible. And if you both are available they often talk with you separately. Never fear about their stance on A's, I have never known them to take ANYTHING other than a hardline on A's. But they do it in the gentlest way. There are many a WS that that are OK with talking with them again...they are gentle and respectful in their approach.

SHMI, I can't tell you how much your feedback means to me, especailly coming from a woman's perspective. It helps me immensely.

Do you think if I compliment her like you have suggested that it may be overkill since she wants to hate me and I'm ruining her fantasy that I am uncaring and thoughtless, or should I just do it until I break through? I really want to compliment her, but it's uncomforatble complimenting someone that isn't very receptive, but if it will build my LB$ then I will defentitely do it. I will make it personal as well, that is a great tip! (i.e. you have such a pretty smile that it melts my heart).

She just called me at work and asked me if I can get off early to make barbeque for the family at dinner time. She also asked me if I took her engagement ring since she couldn't find it in her jewlery box. I said no and asked her why she thought I would take it, to which she replied "I thought maybe you would take it away from me". I said "I would never do that to you". She still sounded cold on the phone, but I was still Mr. kind, nice and thoughtful <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tomorrow I plan on picking up some Chinese food for dinner so she doesn't have to cook. She loves chicken balls so I will get her plenty. I'm finding the more I do this, the easier it gets, I just wish she would start to appreciate it somewhat.

Plan A is all about grace under pressure.

Hope,

You have discovered my FAVORITE word and it is "GRACE". It has a way of soothing the mind, an image of coolness yet deep kindness, doesn't it? Use the word often when you are talking to yourself.

As for your deposits, keep them coming. You are planting seeds in the garden Hope and it takes awhile for them to germinate. So have patience and give this time. I suspect you are also finding that doing these things makes your mind more at peace doesn't it? You know you are doing things properly and it will give you strength to know that you are.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Compliments are GREAT, I'd try at least one a day. She may balk at them at first. When FWH and Istarted getting along better, cutting out LB and trying to fulfill each other's EN's it made me happy and angry at the same time. Happy, because we were finally getting along (we fought every day before) and angry because I thought of all the time we wasted and the times he DIDN'T do thise things before.

It may get worse before it gets better, but just keep it up.

Keep a close eye on your Taker, that may feel taken advantage of if your ENs are not fulfilled over time. If you find this happening, you will need to quell it, or take care of it..self-soothe yourself, energize yourself so you can keep this up.

Those are some GREAT Plan A ideas! You are doing a GREAT job!

What are her top 3 ENs again? Concentrate on those. When FWH and I took the EN questionnaire we found that our top ENs were those that had been neglected. It may be interesting to take the questionnaire again and see how our top ENs have changed...

Some more ideas? Try harmless affection...affection away from the bedroom...while you're both sitting on the couch lightly touch her ankle or toes or arm. Lightly stroking or putting an arm or hand on a part of her body...it shows her you care and not only for SF.

Speaking of SF...foreplay for a woman is all the OTHER things you do thorughout the day...the compliments, playing with the kids, picking up her favorite video, keeping her in your prayers, etc.

JL, when i think of "grace" it puts me at ease and gives me a sense of understanding, acceptance, tranquility and peace. I think of the word "grace" alot to help me get through this difficult time and I believe my WW sees something in me that she hasn't seen much of before and it is cofusing her right now. I looked up the defenition as it relates to Christians and it states "unearned favour of God". It's unconditional, pure love.



JL, you are correct in that I'm at peace with myself whe I do these things, even though it's met by a cold emotional wall that surrounds my WW. I used to be slightly introverted, somewhat shy and passive aggressive. This has changed me. The fear is subsiding, the anger is not what it was, and I feel a certain calmness about me. It truly is the strangest transformation.

Thanks

SHMI, this is exactly how my wife feels. She told me this during one of our conversations. She said she felt wonderful when I did those things, but that feeling was opposed by the feeling of resentment that I never did them before, so I retreated a little.


Yes, sometimes I can feel my Taker taking over, especailly during trying days. I will give myself a rest when that happens.


I don't know for sure, but I have a strong feeling they are Affection, Conversation and Honesty. I hope we get to fill out the Questionairs during our session with Steve or Jennifer.


I was doing this before our last confrontation, but has since stopped. I will try to pick it up again shortly once she becomes a little more open a receptive.


I'm slowly starting to understand this. Too bad it took all this too happen. When my WW asked me why I wasn't doing these things before, I said I got a "wake up call" to which she replied "yes I woke up to". That one hurt...

Thanks...

Hope,

It is not strange at all. You ARE taking action, you KNOW you are on the right course and what you may not realize yet is that no matter how this turns out, you will KNOW you gave it your best shot. It is so much more rewarding than being passive/aggressive and it is more productive as well.

Use the word a lot and finally expect it to get much worse. And when it does...smile, even laugh, but of course do it "gracefully" if W is around. Do you know why? Because your W must go from withdrawal to conflict before she can reengage with you. You are disputing with your actions the assumptions she has used to justify her behavior AND she knows deep down her behavior is really hard to justify. So it will make her angry to be shown that she has been lying to herself. It will make her angry that you are capable of this behavior but perhaps have not shown it before. She will be angry that she was wrong about you.

In the end, she will have to face the fact that YOU CAN be who you are, and eventually you will be able to explain to her how YOU have changed internally and these things do change you. Being on this site has changed me in profound ways. And it will you as well.

So let the anger come and realize that this is progress. This is the stress of germination of those seeds you are planting and nuturing even though they don't know you exist.

Hang in there.

God Bless,
JL

JL, you should be a motivational speaker!

So you think my wife is in withdrawl, even though she is still in contact with OM? How do I know when and if she enters the conflict stage? What should I expect?

Just trying to prepare myself fot this.

Thanks again.

Below are some of the things my WW has said over the last 2 months in chronilogical order:


"I feel funny around you"
"I want to get up now" she got out of bed after I asked if there was OM
"It's not you, it's me"
"I don't deserve you"
"Please don't do those things for me, it make me feel bad" flowers and affection
"I want to feel like we did when we dated"
"Do you have any regrets about us"
"I think I'm loosing my mind"
"He's smothering me" talking to her girlfriend
"He's needy and clingy" talking to her girlfriend
"I'm loosing my temper and yelling at the kids because of him" talking to her girlfriend

After D-Day....
"Tell how you know so I can explain"
"How do you know that"
"He's just a friend"
"If you don't tell me how you know I won't talk to you"
"This isn't going to work"
"You can't tell me who my friends should be"

After Exposure...
"What did you tell them"
"I never hated you before, but I feel hate for you now"
"How could you do this"
"This is all your fault"
"I don't know where to go"
"You can leave if you not happy"
"I can't stand you"
"Your trying to control me"
"I feel like I'm being watched"
"You are trying to force my hand"
"You are doing this to make me leave"
"I'm not quitting my job"

There are probably many, many more, but I thought I would stop here.

If it wasn’t so sad it’d be funny, huh...

If you haven’t heard these yet, don't be too surprised when you do:

I never loved you.
He’s like a brother to me.
I love you but I am not in love with you (the infamous ILYBINILWY speech)
He understands me in a way you never have.

I am not happy.
I have feelings for both of you.
I don’t want to hate you.
Our M is a mistake.

I can’t do this.
We can do this.
The children will be happier if I am happy.
You’re just peeing on your territory.

I wish I was dead.
I wish you were dead.
Can we be friends?
Who my friends are is none of your business.

If you talk to OM I will divorce you.
How long are you going to go on about this?
It’s time you get over this.
I want to move on.

Sorry, I’ve run out of time. But there are many, many more.

I forgot to include:

You never really loved me.
He is better in bed.

Well WW and I just had a fairly long emotional conversation. I just let her talk and kept the conversation going just like SHMI suggested. I listened and did not try to give her advice. I asked the question "how come" for clarification and repeated some of what she was saying, which was:

WW: "You treated my like **** for 8 years"
BS: "You really think the 8 years have been all ****?"
WS" "No, but I never felt loved"
BS: "So you never felt I loved you?"
WS: "I know you loved me be I didn't feel loved"
BS: "Oh, you know I haven't been the best husband and have taken things for granted, but I love you from the deepest part of my heart"
WS" That doesn't mean anything to me now"
BS: "How come?"
WS: "Because I don't want you to show me now"
BS: "how come you don't?"
WS: "Because it makes me angry and resnetful that you never showed it to me for 8 years"
BS: "So you feel angry and resentful since I didn't show you how much I loved you"
WS: "yes, you never loved me that way"
BS: "I want to tell you that I did love you that way, I just didn't know how to show it. I wish you could see all the ways I want to show you how I love you"
WS: "I don't want it now"
BS" "Even though I feel this way you won't accept it"
WS" No, I put so way more effort into showing you how much I loved you"
BS" I hope you can leave a small part of your heart open for me"
WS: "Sometimes I think maybe if we just seperate for a while that I may miss you and the feelings will come back. Then I feel like I'm not sure I want to give up just yet"
BS: "I don't want you to give up cause I know we can have a better marrriage than we ever had"
WS: "I don't want to be like so and so who live in a unhappy marriage"
BS: "Neither do I"
WS: "I'm just not happy anymore"
BS: "I know your not happy...I want us to be happy and I know we can"
WS: "I can't just change how I feel"
BS: "Ok so let's see what the MC says to us"
WS: "OK, but if they act weird I won't go"
BS: "It will be by phone"
WS: "By phone?"
BS: "Yes, they have an excellent reputation and it will take about 1 hour"
WS: "I'm not telling them anything intimate"
BS: "Ok"

There was much more, but that was the extent of it. She is very sad, but there is still some hope. I hope Steve or Jennifer can convince my WW

Yep, she is trying to negotiate keeping BOTH of you.
She wants her space.
"I want to leave so I'll learn to miss you"
"I just need to get away to think for a while"
"I feel pressured and I need to get away to sort this out"
blah, blah, blah

What she is asking for is to get away so she can continue the A without watchful eyes.

Part of Plan A is to negotiate NC with the OP. Have you told her there is no room in the M for OM, and she will have to have NC with him (no email, phone, seeing him, etc) for the rest of her life if she wants to work on the M?

The other tough part of Plan A and MBuilders is that you, as a BS, have no control over the A. The A has a life of it's own, and it WILL die a natural death. You can help that come earlier by exposing, but they will do what they want...no matter what you do.

Think about a Plan B in the future...how long can you keep up a Plan A? How much storehouse of love do you still have for her? Perhaps if things have not changed by the holidays? (Ugh)

I have told her I can't accept contact with OM, but in order for that to happen she must quit her job and she is not willing to do that. I will restate my boundaries again, but it kind of feels useless since she is going to break them anyway.


I think she may try to take in underground now that she knows I was recording her phone conversation. My IL's are very upset and my WW feels like I have turned everyone against her. Not being able to anything about the A except exposure is a hopeless feeling. I will continue to complain to her work should new revealing information arrise.


I don't want to leave my house for Plan B. How can I get her to leave if it comes to that?

I want to restate my boundary to my WW regarding OM who is her co-worker. I would appreciate some suggestions. Here is what I am thinking:

"I know you have denied there is any relationship between you and OM or that I have taken things out of context. However, based on the things we both know, I can't accept any continued contact with OM if our marriage is to work. I cannot force you to make the right decision, but you should know there are consequences to your decsions"

How does that sound for a boundary?

Have you called the Harleys?

I think it is fully warrented in your situation.