Sounds like you are on target...but don't let her negotiate a way to continue the A with your blessing.

This is the sticky point. If she were NOT having the A, she wouldn't care if you taped her phone conversations. Because she does not want you to tape her phone conversations is a HUGE red flag that she wants to continue conversation with OM.

In a M, EVERYTHING needs to be an open book. All email, phone calls, letters, are up for scrutiny. There are no secrets in a M. If you had a business partner and they had a secret phone line they didn't want you to listen in on, wouldn't you balk at this?

I would explain to her something like,
"W, I know I promised not to listen in on your phone conversations but I need you to know I will still want to do this, and may do this or view other communication now and in the future. If there is something you don't want me to hear, let me know now, and if htere is nothing youi don't want me to hear, you have nothing to worry about. I want you to know I do this out of love for you and a respect for keeping our M intact."

She will go on and on about how it is disrespectful to peek into her private life. Just listen to everything she has to say. What I told my H was that because he cheated, the burden of proving he wasn't cheating and protecting my love was upon him. The more proof I had he WASN'T cheating, the better I felt. You can ask her what will you find from taping the phone conversations. If she drones on and on about respect, you can tell her that it is very disrespectful to have an R with this man while she is still M and if taping her phone calls helped her remember that, you will continue to do this.

This is not a negotiable item...you will continue to check up on her, and you should give her the opportunity to check up on you too. Pass over all passwords, cell phone numbers, phone cards, etc...

I have some definite concerns in agreeing to anything that would allow her to potentially continue contact with OM. Why on earth would she care if you're checking her email and such unless she's got something to hide?!?!

I think you're taking a serious risk in agreeing to stop monitoring her like that...instead, you should have asked her how she's going to prove to you that contact has ended then?

Trust should NOT be given...it should be EARNED. She lost it, and now she's got to EARN it back...doing what you're doing doesn't meet that requirement.

Regardless, good luck to you!

Hope,
your WW sounds like my H except he moved out then I about OP 2 months later. I have learn a lot from your posts.
Don't quit plan A yet. Sounds like you are making progress. Faith05

Hope, the others are right, trust is something SHE has to earn, not you. You are not the one who has been behaving in an untrustworthy manner, she is. You should tell her that you cannot agree to stop snooping on her until she has restored trust. You should never ever negotiate away your only mode of self protection. If she were truly interested in proving herself, she would WELCOME your snooping because it would clear her. But she does not want that, because she has something to hide. Nor should you encourage her family to stop pressuring her. That is a natural consequence of her bad behavior and you shouldn't protect her from it.

Dr Harley:

What are the signs of an affair?

Almost everyone denies an affair at first, even when confronted with overpowering evidence. When a woman I counseled broke in on her husband having sex with a neighbor, he tried to convince her that she was having an hallucination.

While seeing your spouse in bed with a lover is sure-fire evidence of an affair, that kind of evidence is usually close to impossible to find. But there are many other less intrusive ways to detect ongoing affairs.

For an unfaithful spouse to engage in an affair without detection, two separate lives must be created, one for the lover and one for the spouse. A certain amount of dishonesty is required in both of them, but the major deception is with the spouse.

So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.

One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.

I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?

con'd at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Well you all have me thinking about placing a condition on my promise now. I will have to say that she needs to share her information with me and if I feel that she is hiding something I will investigate it further.

There needs to be complete honesty in our R for it to succeed.

I just want to start turning this around and I remember someone saying Plan A is about negotiation an end to the A.

I plan on havin a session with SH later this week or next week so we will see how that goes. Hopefully Steve clues in on what has been happening and helps me handle the situation.

I need your help everyone.

I have listed to the phone conversations I made a couple of weeks ago and everytime I listen I am convinced she is enamoured with the OM. However, she make me believe there is nothing and says it is "taken out of context". There are no "I love yous" or anything like that on the tape, just mush talk and clues that she likes OM. I want the smoking gun or something that says "ah ha I got you". What shoud I do to get this? Should I ask to read her email? I have a feeling she will object. The only way she is contacting with OM right now is by phone or email.

Also, when she said she wants to seperate and I could come and see the kids whenever I wanted, that made me really scared. I can't bear to have them away from me. I don't know what my rights are. If she files for seperation what can I do to protect my kids?

I need to know this so I can proceed with a plan. I really want to turn up the heat on the EA but I need some more evidence right now. I also need to know what I should say to her if she threatens with seperation.

I have a feeling she is conversing via email, since one of the phone conversations she said "just send me an email to call you". She may be using her work cell phone to call him also.

I am confused right now and feel like I am loosing control. I don't want to LB either. Also, her damm friend is good friends with OM also so she may be conversing through her as well. I need good proof that something is still happening.

The more I read about WW's the more she is acting typical to one. I feel she is bringing this underground and turning all of the blame on me. I am falling for it and I can't believe it. I don't want to always talk to her about it since it's not a good plan A. The fact the she told me she needs more space tells me she won't let me read her email.

Should I ask her to promise NC and then ask for proof from her? She may not even agree to this then what? Sorry for all the questions, bu I need to get this ship straightened out again.

Thanks

I would ask for no contact and then continue to do as much snooping as possible. I would NOT "ask her" if you can see certain things, that will get you nowhere. You need to snoop when she thinks you are not looking. She very sounds like she is in an affair.


An adulterous spouse has much more to fear than a faithful spouse. She should know that most judges don't take kindly to adulterous spouses who try to remove their children from their nice homes so they can carry on an affair. She has much more to fear than you, I'm afraid. I would let her know that in a seperation, you would not allow the kids to leave easily and would fight for full custody.


Wow, how many times have we heard this? This means: back off so I can carry on my affair in peace. Don't ask to read her emails, just do it.

People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

My WW uses email on her company laptop. So I would need to get her password to log in to the desktop and then I would also need her email password. How would I ever secure those passwords?

Also, do you think it is ok if I ask her for more details (i.e. where she was, who she was with, what she did, etc.). I'm sure she wont want to answer these questions and they will make her feel more controled.

I don't think she is ready for NC yet, but I would like to aske her to see what she says. What do you think?

Last night my WW was working on her laptop and I decided to tell her about my exciting trip to Chicago the day before. It was kind of hectic and I just talked about what happened, what I did, who I did it with and how I felt. I just talked for about 1 hour and she seemed to listen and comment as we went along. I don't remember the last time I just talked to her about my experiences for that long. I gave her all the detail and I felt good afterwards. It was really a one way conversation, but I wanted to be open and converse with her.

Today we are both home and she seems a little more open to me even initiating conversation with me. I did a few things for her like pick up a coffee and wash her car. We are having a better day together and she doesn't seem as distant or angry with me.

She is going out to dinner with her girlfriend, which I am not too happy about, but I didn't LB and just said Ok. I know where she is going and she said it was with her friend only so I am fairly certain the OM won't be there. When she gets home I will ask her for details to see if she was lying or not. She will defenitely be talking about me and it probably will be all the bad things I have done to her recently (in her mind anyway). I feel my Plan A is pretty solid so hopefully she won't have too much to complain about and maybe there might be the odd good thing.

I haven't told her ILY in a while, but I am still kind, thoughfull and considerate to her. I want to show her some more affection, but I don't want to smother her. There is a defenity balance between showing some affection that she my receive and smothering her.

This morning I was able to sleep next to her and touch her a little without any negative feedback from her. I didn't overdue it just let her know that I am there. Right now I'm just planting the seeds and maintaing my garder.

She doesn't seem as anxious or frustrated lately, but I don't know what to make of that. She had wanted to wash her care togeter, but when I did it for her she said "we were supposed to do it as a team". Funny, we haven't done anything as a team in a long time.

I find that I'm not afraid to talk with her now. I will bring up topics and even if she is not interested I will keep the conversation going until I get some feedback from her. I noticed in the taped conversation with the OM he just talked about stuff and she listened and kept the conversation going also. The only thing was she was much more interested in what he had to say and did it in an enamoured way. That hurts...a lot, but I try not to let it get to me. This guy really can't compete with me. I just need to do all the things he is doing and do them better.

She once told me that OM blew up on her when she was investigating a relationship he was having with one of his subordinates (how ironic). I'm just waiting for the day when he blows up again on her and shows her the real person he is. Remember he was really angry with me and WW when I submitted complaint to his work. He also became very defensive when he was interogated, so I know he may have a bit of a temper. I need to exploit that somehow. I feel if he blows up on her, she will start to see the real him and if I keep Plan A'ing it she will see the difference.

So that is the update. So far a good day.

YEs, negotiate and ask for NC. There will be no recovery until NC happens. I've seen it too many times where the WS negotiates the door to be left open a crack and the OP barges right in eventually.

And I would have a friend drive by or visit the place WW is going tonight...very likely she is meeting OM. Tell your friend to take a camera.

The only people I can ask to go by and take a look are my in-laws and they are unavailable tonight. She told me she would be going to either or two possible resteraunts and then to Walmart to buy some clothes for our kids. I will look for the clothes when she gets home and ask some questions about dinner that will make it hard for her to get around. She also told me I can call her during dinner if I need to, so I may just do that and ask to speak to her girlfriend.

An interesting thing happened as she was leaving. She said "are you mad that I am going out with my friend". I thought about it for a moment and I said "No, but I don't want you to talk bad about me with her. You will probably talk about me, but try not to talk about the bad stuff". Then she said something very interesting which was "bad stuff, there is no bad stuff, you're perfect. Remember it's me and not you".

I felt like saying "what about all the damn things you reminded me of that made me a bad husband or that letter you wrote me that you brought up all the things in the past that hurt you, or that you never felt loved. If I'm so perfect, what about all those things". Of course I didn't say this, but I took a mental note and will remember to use this in the future if required. What do you think about this comment WW made? Could this be fog talk? Also, if she is disengaged, why would she care if I am mad at her?

So as she was leaving I said "have a good time" and she gave me a kiss. That is the second kiss in three days, the other one was just before I left on my trip to Chicago (not that I am counting <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />)

She is in a better mood today, more approachable, less distant and angry. So I just want to continue Plan A until next week when she returns to work to see how that affects her. She is supposed to ask for a transfer away from OM so I will give her a little time to see if she comes through with this plan. If not, then I will start to turn up the heat again and create a small crisis for her.

Let's assume that WW agrees to NC, what conditions do I need to have her meet? (i.e. full disclosure, access to phone and email, etc.)

Also, should it include talking about OM with her girlfriend. I would hate for her to be in NC and her girlfriend to tell WW that OM misses her or something of that nature.

Well I just received a call from WW to let me know which resteraunt they had chosen to dine at. They were in the process of ordering their food and she let me say hi to her girlfriend. I feel much better about that and will let her know when she gets home that her thoughtfulness was much appreciated.

Well WW arrived home last night and we talked a little. I told her thanks for calling me and telling me where you were. She said "I know you don't trust me" and that her girlfriend made fun of her and said "what are you in f***** jail or something". My WW told me that sometimes she feels that way. I can't stand her girlfriend. We talked some more and then went to bed.

My WW also said that my DS has been saying to her lately, "mom why are you always mad a me" and "why do you talk like that to me like that". She blames it on trying to get work done from home and having no support from her family. Then she asked me if I yelled at the kids last night to which I said "no" they were very well behaved. I think it bothers her that she is yelling at them at times and I haven't been.

I really want to know what they talked about, would it be smothering if I asked my WW to give some details on their conversation even though I might not get the truth? I'm sure they talked about OM.

I am a little anxious about WW going back to work on Monday. I don't know what to expect and how she will react to seeing OM again. Will she be happy, sad, frustrated, angry, confused...who knows.

I forgot to mention something that happened to me last night while we were sleeping. At around 2:00am, while in a semi-sleep state, I moved over and cuddled with my WW. I didn't realize I was doing this and by the time it happened I kind of froze and just stayed their for a while. She seemed to be OK with it, so I just stayed their snuggled up against her. After a few minutes, I took my arm away from her becuase I didn't want her to feel smothered and moved away, just a little. After a couple of minutes she then came a little closer to me (not really cuddling) and then a few minutes later she sat up had a drink of water and decided to sleep with her head at the opposite end of the bed (where my feet are).

I heard her taking those deep breaths again (stress or anxiety maybe) and she was restless for a while. So I just stayed where I was and eventually fell asleep again. When I woke up in the morning, I found her sleeping back in the normal position again. I got up, got ready for work and gave her a kiss on the forehead before I left for work.

Am I making too much out of this or what do you think of all this?

I just called home to see what my WW and kids were doing. She said everything was going ok, but her family was being A**H**** again. When I asked why, she said as she went by her parents house to pick up the kids after going to get her hair done, her father asked her "did you go to your work". She doesn't feel like this will ever change and is really mad at them and me for doing this.

I just stuck to my guns this time and said, "you know why I did this". She wasn't to responsive to that answer. But I'm kind of glad that she feels the pressure from her family since it might help end the EA. She said there is nothing I could say to her family to chnage their opinion of her. In fact, if she were to follow through with NC and show me that she is interested in keeping me from being harmed, I would talk to them and explain that she needs their love and suppport to help our marriage succeed. But until that happens, I need their support to maintain some pressure on her to end the EA. My MIL wanted to call my WW girlfriend to rip into her and tell her to stay away from my WW. I told her to hold off on that for a while since I'm not sure what effect it would have.

My WW also said, "I don't want to get into this right now (my exposing to her family) since we have been getting along better lately". It was good to hear her say that and shows me that my Plan A is working.

I just received an email from my WW's boss telling me that she received my complaint of WW and OM. She said they will investigate accordingly, however will not be able to disclose the outcome due to employee privacy rights. I sent this complaint in over three weeks ago so I hope she doesn't bring it up with my WW now since we seem to be doing better lately. This would set us back some.

I wonder if my WW is waivering between conflict and withdrawl since she seems to be more willing to argue as she did several months ago. Her Taker is defenitely in charge, however her Giver very rarely makes an appearance. On the other hand, I have been in full Giver mode for some time now. Hopefully, this will eventually pay off.

I have been making a very concerted attempt not to LB, while my WW is LB'ing all the time with disrepectful judgements, angry outbursts and some independent behaviour. Last night had an AO when my DD cut her hair using a pair of scissors while I was taking a shower. According to my WW, I should have let her know I was in the shower. Maybe, but she didn't have to become upset with me as she did. Later, after she had finished a phone call with her SIL, I asked what happened and she told me she was upset with something and that "it would be a good call to listen to if you are still recording my converstaions". I didn't shoot back with anything, just let it go.

I seem to be having some success in supplying her EN of conversation. We have been talking more, even though it may not always be deep and thoughful. However, the affection EN is a much harder one to crack. She has that emotional wall up and won't accept my affection right now. Yesterday morning before leaving for work I gave her a quick peck on the forehead. Well this morning as I was about to leave, she turned around and placed her head in the pillow preventing my kiss. I didn't pursue it and just left for work. I don't know if she did that on purpose, but it did hurt.

I have a picture of her on my desk that is bitter-sweet to look at. She is smiling and looks so beautiful, but then I remind myself that she won't let me close to her both physically and emotionally and it hurts like crazy. I sometimes feel like turning it down.

Things seem to be improving so very, very slowly and I feel like I am walking on egg shells not wanting to make things worse. One minute we are laughing while having dinner and a couple of hours later she is angry and upset with me. My Giver is taking a beating, but I just keep thinking of the end goal.

The fact that she said "we are getting along better lately" has given me some hope that Plan A is slowing having an affect on her. I miss the days where I could go to work without worrying about what she is doing or our relationship. I wish she could see how this is affecting me, but she really doesn't seem to care or have a clue.

Update...

Well things seem to have taken a turn for the better as this was the best weekend WW and I had since I exposed her EA. Saturday we were busy with her brother's wedding and my Plan A seemed to be finally making some progress. She is engaging me in coversation now and has even twice started her question or commnent to me by using the word "Honey" as in "Honey, could you go to the store for me". I haven't heard her use that word in several months!

As we were taking some family pictures with the kids, she held my hand and was very nice to me throughout the day. At the wedding reception, she even asked me to dance when the first slow song was played. For those of you who don't know my story, she is extremely resentful of a time when I neglected her a wedding we went to and has said she doesn't want to dance with me for this reason. So when she asked me to dance, I was extremely suprised.

She looked bery beautiful in both her morning and evening dress and I made sure I let her know. There were plenty of beautiful women there, but she was the only one I had eyes for.

Yesterday, we had lunch at her parents and everything went well again. Everyone had a good time and she talked about me in a nice way to those who were there. She also placed her head on my shoulder when she was a little tired.

By the end of the night we went to bed and as she was reading her novel, she reached down and held my hand. I couldn't believe it, she was showing me affection! I hadn't felt this from her in months. So I returned the affection by stroking her arm and kissing her forehead. It was a very loving and affectionate moment for us.

At that point I couldn't resist and I told her ILY. I figured it was the right time even though I knew I shouldn't have. She just looked at me and said, "I had a very nice weekend with you". Not exactly what I wanted to hear, but it's better than being ignored. A few minutes later she asked me to make love to her and we proceeded to have a beautiful and intimate time with each other. She actually kissed me passionately which we haven't done in several months either.

At the end of it all, she asked told me she was nervous about going back to work since everyone would be asking her where she has been. Then she asked me if I was nervous of her returning to work, which I said "a little". She replied with "even after tonight". An I said "yes".

I think I will tell her tonight that I'm not really scared of her returning to work, but scared of her being in contact with OM.

This morning before she left, she kissed me on the forehead and said "thanks for last night". Considering how bad things have been recently, this weekend was amazing. It took a while but I finally broke through her emotional defense and supplied her with her EN for conversation, now I have finally broke though her wall of affection.

So it looks like the wispers and seeds are finally having an effect :-)

Long time lurker here. I am sorry for what you are going through. Reading your thread just a quick comment...

Since you seem to progressing well, are you going to try and cancel your complaint to her boss? If not that, just try to update her boss (if the boss is obligated now to do something about it) and remind the boss to tell her that the complaint is 3 weeks old?

Just forseeing a possible setback to all your work...