MC has helped because we needed to get some of the hard stuff out with a 3rd person...my wife sits next to me, I talk to her but look at the MC, she does the same. Takes a bit of the sting out, plus you get someone with perspective.

About the dog, hmmm...Man I don't know what to say about that. Physical stuff was never a problem with us so I can't really sound off on that. I would probably not do it yet, or just do it without a note.

For some hope for you...

My wife told me this morning that I was a great husband and thanked me again for giving us a chance and forgiving her. She has been exceptionally sweet lately. Last night she said she preferred planning a future with me and the kids to worrying about anything else. She threw a surprise b-day party for me last week. She has been beyond perfect lately...I'm having trouble keeping up with it!

Just keep being your best for her. When you finally get the NC going I bet things get better fast.

mflake, I think I will hold off on the stuffed puppy for now. It might be too much for her right now, especially considering she rejected my attempt at affection last night.

I envy your situation right now and am so happy for you. You sound like a great guy and husband. Your wife really is lucky to have you. I can't imagine what it would be like to be in the position you are in right now. It gives me hope though.

I will try and bring up the topic of MC tonight and see what she says. She doesn't want to continue with Steve Harley because of the cost so I will see if she is interested in a local MC. I agree that it is a must, but she doesn't seem interested right now. She said she can't move forward until she resolves the past issues with me (i.e. neglect). Since she sees a MC as moving forward it bothers her and she is hesitant. Any ideas on how I can approach her with this?

It has been stagnant for a while and I hope we are not due for one of those haymakers you are talking about. Time will tell.

I have a suspicion that your "neglect" wasn't as bad as either of you remeber it- they have a way of trying to make the BS look as bad as they can to justify their affairs. My wife was bringing up inconsiderate stuff from 2-3 years ago that I did...

And since she can't move forward until other issues are resolved...what better place to start than MC? Tell her you'll just focus on your "problems" first and move to her EA later. Just don't push too hard. She says she's not interested because all she can think about is how great a little fantasy life would be without all the stress of a real adult relationship.

I'll continue to share my good times here to give you encouragement. I know exactly how you feel right now!

I can't believe some of the things that she brought up in her list of neglect that she reminds me of once and a while. Things from years ago that I had no idea bothered her. I bet if you weighted them they would only comprise less that 1% of the total interaction with her. It's funny how one day it is all my neglect that caused this and on some days she doesn't deserve me? Is that fog talk or what?

Can you believe she apologized to the OM for my exposure? She was so worried about him being mad. This guy is a weasel and I read one of the emails from a few months ago where my WW caught him lying and how did he respond...by smooth talking her about how special their friendship is and it means more to him than any job...Then after exposure he was so upset that he threatened legal action towards me if he lost his job. I guess his job is important to him after all.

I hope his true colours come through, although if they do I think my WW would over look them anyway. She only seeing him once a week now, but I need to get that down to NC. I know NC will changes things for the better since I saw her coming out of withdrawl when she was home for 3 weeks. When she went back to work, she was sucked back in the fog.

Right now I think I'm at the point where I'm not withdrawing anymore deposits from her LB$, and am very slowly increasing them. I feel sooner or later she has to take notice.

One funny thing that happened last night...

We live in Ontario and my WW said she was invited to see a movie at the Toronto International Film Festival, but she declined. So now that my curiosity is arroused I asked her "who invited you". Her response was "why, so you can report a complaint to my work again!" Ouch...that hurts. I left it at that.

FWIW, it was an older man almost in retirement who invited her.

A question to an mflake or any of the other XBS. What was the interaction of your WW with your kids during and after the A? My WW has always been a great mom, but she was slacking a little prior to d-day and much more upset and angry with kids. She seems more engaged with them now, more loving and calmer. Does that make any sense?

Something I do with my H...actually heard about it on one of those news shows (Dateline, 48 Hours, whatever) that said the longest lasting relationships were those that could joke around with each other. That some couple when they reached an impasse or saw an argument going nowhere would begin adding humor, turning the argument around, lightening the mood so it was easier to come back to the topic and resolve it.

So, when she said "why, so you can report a complaint to my work again!" you could say..."I report every week, and I've started a newsletter...half the time I can't fill up a page so I have to make up stuff, how do you spell mongoose?"

But be careful and not be sarcastic, use humor out of love. It CAN lighten a moment, play it by ear...

As a woman creature I can tell you she used that cutting commnet because she knew it would bother you, and she is trying to manipulate you into thinking twice about reporting her again...

Oh, your wife is an evil alien now! She knows she's wrong though, just so hard to admit it!

My wife was way more impatient with the kids during her A. The highlight of her day was to have OM call her from a truckstop at kids naptime every day. Just think, I was working hard so she could be a stay at home mom and she's doing this stuff? Weird, man, weird...

I would take your wife's improvement with the kids as a good sign. My FWW had a 2-week break with no talking to OM and she improved during that time, then slid back in when they started talking some more.

I hear you on that 'neglect' remark. We're M 13 years, and 1% of total interaction over the years is about right for us too. Then why does WW make it sound as if the the entire 13y was horrible?

On getting the contacts down to less frequency, how do you do that? Is it pressure from OMW? Guilting WW? Making yourself so attractive she's less interested in contacting OM? I can say from experience that putting pressure on WW was not a great idea, at least in our case.

WNH, HAve you exposed your wife's A yet? If not that is the most effective way of killing the A.

I would defenitely NOT try "guilting" your WW. They already have guiult thrust upon them and are trying to run from it so any more from you will only send them deeper into the fog.

What kind of pressure did you put on your WW? You can't physiclly stop the A, but you can help remove the fantasy and expose it to the light of day where it does not thrive well.

Well last night I tried talking to my WW and boy does she still have lots of anger and resentment towards me. I started by asking her if we could be friends and just talk like friends. She said we are friends so then I asked her how she was feeling and that I sensed she may be upset at something?

She responded by saying we do talk like friends and she get upset when I involve her family. I told her I am no longer involving her family. So I then asked her why she won't tell me how she feels and her reply was "friends don't tell each other how the feel". Well she certainly didn't have a problem telling her girlfriend how she was feeling when I recorded her infamous phone conversation. What kind of dumb remark was this? When she says stuff like this it make me crazy.

She also said "why should I tell you how I feel, so you can spread it to my family, I can't trust you anymore". I then restated that everything I did was because I loved her and wanted to save our marriage. She got really upset with that remark since she has heard it many times from me.

Then she told me that she feels I am using the kids against her since I was such a poor father before and now am doing everything with them (i.e. playing, baths, reading stories, spending time in a loving way, etc.). I simply replied by saying I love her and the kids very much and am trying very hard to be the best husband and father that I can be.

Finally, I said what can I do to help improve things to which she replied "nothing, just leave me alone". My reply was "I can't leave you alone...I love you too much for that".

And that is how it ended. It seems she is having trouble dealing with this "new husband and father". Steve Harley told me that when a WW gets upset at your improved behaviour that means you are being effective.

Even though she was vile with me throughout the conversation, I stated everything in a calm and loving manner. I must admit that this is getting much easier now since I have had so much practise with it.

This morning we woke up and talked about some non-R stuff while still in bed. She seemed to be in a better mood.

I noticed something interesting however. During one of my taped conversations between WW and OM inoticed he would say "you little s***" to her in a nice way. So I told my WW of something funny my DD did and said "what a little s***". My wife proceeded to sigh deeply and became quiet afterwards. Could this be a trigger for her?

Later we went for breakfast with the kids and she seemed really focused on the the kids almost trying too hard to make them happy. I don't know if she feels she needs to compete with the way I am treating them? Does that make any sense? Is that how she see my actions with my kids?

She seems to be in a constant state of defensiveness and anger towards me (with some breaks). When she gets home from work she barely acknowledges me, even after I greet her. Why is she so distant? Could she be in withdrawl?

Yesterday she worked at the OM office location, but I don't know what the interaction was like.

I'm posting an article for you to read, maybe you already have. It is written by Dr. Willard Harley. It is called Why Women Leave Men.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html

It doesn't really matter if you think you that you didn't neglect your wife, she obviously does think that you have and that is the issue you need to face.

The article basically says that you can cheat on a woman, become a hopeless drunk, beat her, steal her money, verbally abuse her and she will keep coming back for more. Neglect her and she is gone. Women seldom divorce for issues other than neglect.

The thing that is bothering me about this situation is that I don't see a safe place for your wife to land. She says that you neglected her for years and years and you dismiss that . . . saying that less that 1% of your interactions were poor. This may be true, I wasn't there, but diminishing your wife's complaints isn't going to get her back. She doesn’t feel safe with you (rightly or wrongly), or with her parents, or at work, or with her girlfriend that you despise. I wonder who she is to discuss this stuff with? Could you get her to come and post here?

I also find it interesting the even Steve Harley wasn't sure that your wife was having an EA. Maybe just at the beginning of an EA, I think that is how you described what he said. He has been doing this a long time and if he isn't sure then maybe she really wasn't. And if she really wasn't, how do you think she feels about what you have been doing? Writing letters to her employer, to her parents . . . Exposure is a very important weapon to stop and affair. If there wasn't an affair and you used it anyway I can see why you wife is a little miffed.

I don't know if she was having an EA or not. I have my opinion, I think she had a friendship with another man while married. That is a recipe for disaster even if it wasn't an EA, and if very well could have been.

I say this all because what you are doing doesn't seem to be working. It may be time to get some help from a real-life professional counselors. Maybe your wife will feel safe talking to a MC.

CN, I did read the article and you make some excellent points. I really didn't think there was OM until a week before d-day, but there were plenty of signs. I think it is more of a one sided EA, since my wife seems enamoured with OM based on her phone conversations.

I have admitted my neglect to my wife and asked for her forgivenss on several occasions (once on a lengthy letter pre d-day that she practically ignored). She doesn't know what to do and I would love to go to MC. I will bring up the topic tonight with her.

She defenitely doesn't feel safe with me right now and doesn't trust me either. I don't know how to fix that other than being honest, kind, considerate, etc.

What do I do if my wife refuses MC?

Tonight I will talk to her family about being more supportive of her and less critical.

It probably WAS a trigger...and I can't understand WHY you would deliberately use a phrase that you knew was associated with the OM?????

I've had to deal with a lot of that...they had a couple of 'catch phrases' they used about each other...and my wife has slipped up a couple of times and used them on me. Now I KNOW that the A is long over, no contact, nothing like that. The real problem was that the OM's personality was a lot like mine...so these 'phrases' make sense too. I never made an issue of is...and it pretty much ended on it's own.

I've always taken a lot of care to avoid using his 'pet name' for her...it's not the same one that I've used for her all these years, so it's not a problem.

Basically, I'd suggest that you take care not to deliberately 'trigger' her...it's really only going to make matters worse...IMHO.

Owl, thanks for the 2x4. I don't know why I did it. It came to my mind at the time and I let it out. Stupid on my part and I will never let it happen again.

I hope things eventually get better. This is starting to get depressing.

The comment about being effective when she gets angry with you is perfect. Yep, your hard work is having an effect. She is having trouble being angry at you so she's getting frustrated. Just assure her that you're the new you for the long haul and keep it up.

I'm absolutely certain you neglected your wife somewhat in the past. I'm a firm believer that women are more covetous of your time than anything else. They need to feel like they're the most important thing in your life. So, no matter how neglected she was, perception is reality for her. You must change her perception (which is very hard to do). For example, if she sees you as being fake in your new behavior, then you are fake. It's your job to convince her you're not.

Recovey update (for hope!):
My FWW has stopped just this side of manic in letting me know how happy she is. She says feeling forgiven has given her a new outlook. She is so sweet and loving (she was never mean at all) now that I'm in shock. I think she sees her second chance as a fresh start and is determined to make things better. She told me she can't wait to see what adventures we will have in the future...also a new theme for her.

If you have neglected your wife in the past don't do it anymore. You already apologized for it so all you can do at this point is to show her attention and stop neglecting her. Show her by actions that you value her. Words are meaningless right now.

Stop love busting your wife if you are. Eliminate annoying habits that you know bother her. Stop involving her parents in your marriage. I can't imagine it is a good feeling having one's husband tattling to your parents about the day to day issues in a marriage. Stop that right now.

Ask her to go to MC with you. If she says yes, you make an appointment that is convenient to her and you both go. If she says no or isn't sure, make an appointment an go alone. I think that she needs to see that you are invested in the marriage. Going to a MC really sucks . . . it isn't fun to know what a failure you have been (speaking from personal experience here . . . I hated MC, but it worked).

mflake, she has told me on a couple of occasions that she thinks I will revert to the old me. I think she needs assurance that I won't. I can tell her that this is the permanent new me, but I don't think she will believe it. Maybe as time goes by she may become a believer.

I will not deny that I neglected my wife in the past and that I didn't spend as much time with my kids as I do now. It took a wake up call for me to realize all of this. I wish my wife could see this is genuine and real. I'n not hesitant at all with showing my kids how much I love them, but I am with my wife, beacuse she has built up this wall around her.

It seems whenever I try to have an intimate conversation she gets defensive and angry towards me. So it is hard not to be hesitant towards somebody like that. I would love to shower her with affection, but I keep getting knocked back down. CN was right in that she doesn't feel safe with me right now. I need to show her I am a safe place for her.

You see she has never heard me try to talk to her like the way I am now. In fact she said yesterday in an angry tone "where are getting this stuff...is is from that book". She was refering to His Needs/Her Needs and Lover Busters. She is used to the old me who would not try to have these types of intimate conversations. The same old me who would get defensive when she became angry or upset and go into a passive agressive withdrawl from her.

I don't do that anymore. Sure her anger and frustration towards me is uspseting, but I don't react like I used to. In the past I would turn that anger and frustration back on her. I don't do that now. Instead I try to calmly and thoughtfully see why she is so upset and that makes her more upset.

I have not told my wife that these changes are permanent becuase I'm affrad she will blow it off, but she needs to hear it from me anyway. The love I am showing my kids, the same love that she sees as clear as day and is resentful for is the same love that I want to show her...if she lets me.

I don't know why she thinks I am trying to use the kids against her. Maybe she feels I am trying attract their love away from her. All the stuff I am doing with them(i.e. baths, reading stories, playing, taking to school, etc.) is Part of my Plan A. These things are supposed to benefit her, so why would she be upset? This confuses me? How can I convince her otherwise?

How do I show her that I value her? She doesn't want affection right now and she doesn't seem to be interested in conversing with me.


I never really thought of going to MC alone, but you may have a good point there. At least I will be able to deal with my issues and hopefully she will see that I am serious about improving our marriage.

It'll take some time for it to sink in with her. She's been getting attention from another man and that has been very distracting (and flattering) for her. She sees that there may be viable alternatives to you. She got used to resenting you for your neglect and now she can't do that anymore and she's frustrated, which is good.

You've got to stick with it- you're doing a great job so far. Don't you like yourself better with the improvements you've made? She'll like you better too. I don't blame her for being skeptical. Just tell her you were lacking in some areas of being a husband and you are correcting them. Tell her others of us have corrected ourselves where we needed to.

CAUTION-- Do not get into "it's my fault" mode. She could have pursued options other than the one she took, so keep that in mind.