From the sounds of things, I don't think that NC ever took...which make it likely that the affair hasn't really ended.

Your wife still hasn't owned up that she did anything wrong, she is still working with OM so contact is very likely (at least very possible), she's not made any effort to reconcile or begin re-building trust, nor does she sound as though she's gone through any withdrawl...at least that's how I'm reading your situation.

Based on all of that, of course you have every reason to be scared of another d-day.

So what are you going to do? "Hope for the best, plan for the worst." Start working on a plan to determine whether or not contact is still taking place. And start working on a plan for what actions you'll take if it IS still ongoing. And, decide what you'll accept as proof that contact HAS ended...and what you'll do when/if you reach that point.

My suggestion is that you try to get more proof, and don't be afraid to ask about the NC...and be ready to deal with it if contact is still going on.

There was never any NC, just a fake attempt by her to minimize contact. I don't know what the contact is like. I know they talk for work reasons, but I don't know what else. I may place a tape recorder in her car to find out what she talks about on her drive.

She has agreed to MC but seems reluctant and doesn't think it will do any good. I would agree that she hasn't gone through any withdrawl. I saw some improvement after exposure when she was home for a while, but she has quickly digressed.

This is what I would like to happen:

1) D-Day #2 with undeniable proof of EA or PA
2) Request NC with OM which would entail quitting her job (I don't know how to enforce this one)
3) Enforce Radical Honesty

What happens of I request NC and she decides to ignore me and continue working there? That will really tick me off.

Hope: I'm with Owl. More intel could be painful, but it could be key to later success. Also, if it should become necessary, do you have more options for further exposure?

Sorry things are, at least for now, going the wrong direction. Keep your hopes up, things can change directions quickly, even in a couple of days.

For us, at a certain point I was watching and waiting for a trend to develop. It eventually became clear that the trend was downward, and there came a point where I was 80% sure we were going down the tubes anyway, so I may as well be damned for taking more action rather than for doing less than I might. Not saying you're there, but if that time does come I'm sure you will recognize it. It's a powerful motivator for further action.

quoting you here.. "I just spoke to a MC who called this revisionist history. I am not disputing my neglect, just the amount and severity."

You are disputing to yourself? Or to WW. If with WW - I'm far from an expert - my take would be to go to an extreme the OTHER way with your WW. Don't they say that in martial arts you use the opponent's inertia to your own advantage? What about saying "Yes i'm pond scum, nobody in history has ever been neglected more than I've neglected you, and now I've come to see that I have a lot of work to do. Can you please consider giving me some time to address my problem?". Caveat: I think this is contrary to MB. But in our case that approach seems to have slowed and halted the downtrend. Could be a small sign or two that things may have started to turn upwards.

You may want to consider repeating that or something similar until she really hears it and agrees with you. I think it puts you on her side, disarms her a bit, slows down her urgency. And there's just a tiny tiny possibility it could make her think "wait he's not THAT bad" etc. In our case that approach been useful. Many on MB may disagree, your mileage may vary.

wnh, things seem to be progressing slowly downward. It is almost as if she has a renewed confidence about her and is closing me off.

I will be installing a tape recorder in her car today and see what I hear since she does most of her conversations from her work cell phone.

I really want some good evidence so I can take this to the next level.

I don't know how much more exposure I can do, but I have asked her family to back off and if I find more evidence of contact I will let them go ahead and do what they feel is best. I could also re-expose to her work, but I don't know how successful that would be.

I think if I finally catch her in the A she won't be able to deny it anymore and I should have some more bargaining power (I hope). Also at that point I will feel better about doing what I have to do to save our marriage.

I hope our MC appointment can knock some sense into her but I doubt it.

I can't tell if she is in the fog right now or not. Some babble yesterday with her revisionist history, but other than that she is pretty cool.

The last time prior to D-Day she was very frustrated and angry most of the time even with the kids. Now she is not as angry and doesn't seem as frustrated. What could this be a sign of?

Another thought in addition to the recording idea you'd mentioned..some on MB forums have succeeded at getting access to work cell phone records. If so you could see the talk (and text msg) phone numbers in and out and how many minutes.

Last night after my wife gave the kids a bath, they said their prayer together and she always says "let's pray for" and lists some people who are sick or deceased in the family. But she also said "and mom and dad" which I never heard her say before.

At bedtime I told her about this and I said it was good to hear. She didn't reply.

I haven't brought my kids to church in a very long time so I think Sunday I plan on bringing them and will see if my wife would like to come.

Man your wife is losing it. Sounds like she's trying to push you away to justify the OM. I hate to be negative, but it sounds like there's more to her EA than you know. You're a decent guy who likes to think the best of his wife, but this isn't really the person you married right now.

I don't think she can act like she is much longer. The guilt/misery will catch up to her eventually. You might even need to push to crack her, I don't know. Isn't there anyone in your lives who will tell her what she's doing is wrong? That really helped us.

If there is a d-day 2 just remember many of us have survived it. Look at it as a step in the positive direction.

Good to start snooping again. I would've never stopped. I still snoop on mine 5 months after NC, and she knows but doesn't mind.

Just remember all of us are on your side, even if what support we can offer is somewhat flimsy.

mflake, good to hear from you again. Yes she is defenitely pushing me away so I'm backing off also. I have been kind of aloof towards her today and will do that again tomorrow. I think she got used to me being trying so hard that this should confuse her a little. I think I am way to predictable right now, which is not really attractive to anyone. Time to throw some change-ups. I was getting tired of being ignored and feeling like an idiot. My self respect was taking a beating and I want it back. I need to add some mystery to my life. I was telling her everything I did with no success. Now I will only tell when asked.

She doesn't tell me anything and I am getting tired of asking only to be shrugged off by her. She is a grown woman and her actions will have consequenses.

I'm not abandoning Plan A, just need to pull back a little before my Giver gets burned out to fast. This will give my Taker some room with LB'ing.

Yes I'm beginning to think this is more than an EA or is going that route.

We have MC scheduled for Tuesday night but I'm not getting my hopes up. She doesn't seem really interested and I don't think it will go past one session.




I don't know about that. She seems to be doing fine acting the way she is right now. I don't see any stress in her life really, or she is doing a great job of hiding it. If she has any guilt or misery I defenitely don't see it in her. The only person I could see trying to talk to her would be her younger brother, but I don't know if will do any good since she won't have anything to do with her family right now.


I'm kind of hoping for a d-day 2 just to get this whole thing out in the open once and for all.

By the way I started to work out again and it feels good. I have also taken up playing guitar which I have wanted to do for a while.
Good to start snooping again. I would've never stopped. I still snoop on mine 5 months after NC, and she knows but doesn't mind.

Just remember all of us are on your side, even if what support we can offer is somewhat flimsy. [/quote]

A funny thing is happening to me over the past day or two and I don't know if this is a typical stage for a BS or just me. I am more at ease with the whole situation. I'm starting to see that I can't force my WW back to me, she needs to make that choice herself.

I'm starting to see what she feels smothered by me. The questions about the R and OM. It is like I need her, but I am realizing that I don't need her. I love her very much and would love for her to want to be with me, but I don't feel like I need her anymore. Now that I am realizing that I am starting to feel more at peace with myself.

I haven't totally become at ease, but something has happened over the past day or two that is giving me peace about the whole situation. I don't know if it was becuase I felt so hopeless earlier in the week and felt like I had hit bottom after hoping she would recover, but I'm starting to feel like whatever happens, I will be fine.

I don't know if this feeling lasts or it is just a temporary stage in the BS process. I'm not as preoccupied with what my wife is doing or who she is talking to. Don't get me wrong, the anxiety is still there, but it is no where near what is was.

I can actually sit down and watch a TV program or eat a full meal. My WW is suffering and I can tell that even though she is putting on a strong facade. I don't know what is going through her mind, but she must be torn with feelings.

Can anyone comment on this...

Yep, feeling more at ease sounds normal. That's because you've made yourself better so you like yourself more. It's ok to like yourself even if your WW doesn't right now.

A bit of the cold shoulder may help shock her out of it. They seldom like to receive their own treatment.

Update...

Well nothing really unusual happened this weekend except that I sense my W contiuned attemp at disconnecting from me. She wants to open up a seperate bank account and is still cold and distant.

We talked last night for about an our about the R and it seems the major items for her are the resentment or my past neglect and the alienation to her work and family due to exposure. She said she used to be so proud to be my husband and now she is ashamed of me.

She said she doesn't want to show me any affection and doesn't want any from me. Her birthday is coming up and she asked me not to get anything for her since she would be unappreciative of it.

We are basically living as seperated in the same house even thought we are sleeping in the same bed. It is an awkward feeling.

I'm really at a loss at what to do now. How do I stop this slide into the abyss?

She feels like she has no one to go to and feels unsafe. She doesn't trust me.

I asked her what her dream come true would be and she said to take the kids and move far, far away.

It truly feels like a hopeless situation right now. She doesn't feel like she will ever feel love for me again. She just wants to be friends.

We have a MC session tomorrow, but I'm worried it might do more damamge than good since she will bring up these bad feelings again and the MC might say there is no hope for us.

She also told me that everyone of her friends told her to leave me because of what I have done.

I don't know how to deal with this. I'm trying to pull back from her but it doesn't seem to be helping. She just seems to disconnect more from me.

I could really use some adice.

Thanks

Hope: How about encouragement instead? I think there's a likelihood that this will clear up in time. After all, what you did was for her and for the M. Not out of selfish reasons, and not to intentionally hurt her. She can't see that now, and may not be able to see it for some time, but don't you think that eventually she'll come to realize that?

Right now, could it be she's subconsciously punishing you, and that eventually she'll see that she's punished you enough?

Looks to me like tons of patience and adding love units is the only viable way to go right now. Maybe a tender note for her birthday? Listing all the beautiful things she's done for you and the kids over the last year? Slide in a mention of a couple of wonderful things you've shared together?

You can do this Hope. You're strong, smart, and now wide-awake. You have changed, and can change other things that need to be changed. And the most important thing is that you don't give up easily. Hang in there brother!

I don't get this...she's ashamed of you for exposing her affair? How exactly does that work??

Bluntly, when my wife made comments like that, I'd politely, calmly, but bluntly challenge her on them. How can telling her family and friends the truth about what SHE was doing? How is that something she could cause her to be ashamed of YOU?!?!

And again, why would her friends tell her to leave you for being honest and fighting to save your marriage? I'd highly doubt that they said this...or I'd point blank ask her to tell you EXACTLY what she's told them...odds are, she's not being honest with them, and THAT's why she's hearing what she wants to hear at this point.

Don't sit there and constantly FIGHT with her...but also don't just calmly accept it when she DJ's you...challenge her on it. Tactfully, calmly, with your end goal of fixing your marriage in mind, but don't sit there and let her try to convince you that YOU are the one who is doing shameful things here.

Most posters in MB are much more experienced and smarter than me, and probably better looking to boot. So in the spirit of a minority opinion (many will say this is just plain wrong) I'll just say that yr WW already thinks you're guilty as heck of a few things. Why not just at least partially concede on those few points - since there's no chance you'll be able to dissuade her? You might consider playing along, with the benefit of helping her see you have at least the virtues of open-mindedness and reasonableness. On other points where she's not so convinced, maybe you can validate her - and also find a way to make points that support your behavior without directly challenging her own statements or LBing? Not easy, and maybe wrong. FWIW.

Let me see if I can clear this up for you.

His wife denies an inappropriate relationship occurred . . . nothing more that a polite friendship with a coworker (we have all heard that one before <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ). She certainly denies that she had an affair, emotional or physical. Steve Harley of MB fame isn't convinced that she had an affair either (they counseled with him).

First, exposure is supposed to be done to put pressure on an established/verified affair. Here there was no certainty that the wife was having an affair. (To me it sounds like she was in a one-sided infatuation). Secondly, exposure is supposed to be done in concentric rings. First contact people that can put pressure on the wife e.g. friends. If that doesn't work then progress to family. If all else fails, then try work. This isn't what happened here. Exposure was instantaneous and done to everyone he could think of.

Can you see why she possibly might be felling a little distant from him?

Yes everyone having an affair gets mad when they are exposed. If you aren't having an affair and your spouse does this . . . how would you feel? If you aren't having an affair and your spouse tells everyone that you are . . . writes letters to your boss accusing you of having an affair with a coworker . . . how are you supposed to react? How would you?



Her friends possibly see him as an out-of-control, unstable, jealous nut; not as someone doing anything they can to save their marriage.

Like I've said before, I don't know if his wife is having an affair. If Steve Harley wasn't convinced then I will tend to be a bit skeptical too.


I wouldn’t fight with her either.

CN, I think I may have messed up everything beyond the point of repair. I think you may have nailed it, even if it was a one-sided infactuation the exposure may have really hurt my cause.

I don't know I she will ever recover from this. I don't know what else to do and feel hopeless right now.

I think we may need to have an in house seperation for a while just to let things settle down a bit.

She doesn't feel safe with me right now and I can't blame her.

Our MC session for tomorrow was cancelled by the C and I don't think I will renew it since I don't think it will do much good right now.

What you did you didn't do out of malice. You did not expose to hurt her. It may have, but that wasn't the intent.

I don't know what will fix this except time. Act consistently, be loving when you are able. Don't love bust her even though she is treating you pretty poorly.

I would keep looking for signs that there was more going on than she admits. Keep treating her with kindness and keep your eyes peeled.

You did the best you could. You may have even done the correct thing. I just don't know. You situation is different from most that I have seen here and I have read a lot of them.

No matter what, you are not a villian. You are just a hurt husband trying to get his marriage to a better place. She can fault you for method but not for intent. Your intent is to save your marriage. You wouldn't be spending so much time here if you didn't really care.

I'm not trying to come down on you at all. I was just trying to explain how this would look to a spouse on the receiving end of exposure that wasn't having an affair.

Hope, I'm sorry to hear you're troubled with questions about your actions. You've done nothing wrong, even if WW would have preferred some other or lighter approach. Remember she did push you into a corner, put you into a huge state of mental confusion, and force your hand. Of course you won't say that to her.

My take: given her upset condition, in order for WW to stop moving away and start moving towards you again, you may need to take some lumps from your beloved. You're a big boy and can handle a few whacks, whether deserved or not.

I suggest you reschedule MC. The counselor isn't a judge or jury or guru, but to WW it will seem that way. Don't know why, that just seems to be the way WW perceives it. She will benefit from pleading her case in front of him, and she'll probably argue it as if you're on trial. She will unload lots of things she probably hasn't told you. She needs that, and even if it's painful or a complete fabrication, you need to hear her out, because it will benefit her greatly.

One possible scenario: WW will dump on you, and MC may whack you too. You sit there feeling humbled, but you don't fight back. The most you will say is "I was scared and worried, and confused, and I didn't know what to do. I felt I had to do something. You're sure I made the mistake of my life, and I don't disagree. I still don't know what's right or what I should have done. But can you please try to understand I did what I thought was best and did it because I love you? And at the right time, please consider forgiving me for it?" Or something to that extent. You've probably said that before, but because you are in a MC session she will be more likely to listen. Especially after she's vented for a half-hour.

WW needs to work this out, and MC is a great place to do it. I think it may help for you to take your lumps, even if they aren't deserved. Again I say many here will disagree, but I ask you to please consider rescheduling MC, or at least asking others here whether they agree.

CN, Thanks for putting it into perspective. I will keep my eyse open and keep trying.

wnh, I have been taken many lumps lately, trust me.

In our R-talk yesterday my W said a few things that she said upset her a litle.

First, she gets upset when I am in a good mood when she gets home and say "hi babe". She says she doesn't want me to feel like things are fine, but I told her I am learning to be in a good mood most of the time as opposed to how I used to act.

Also, she said she thinks the kids love me more because I do more fun stuff with them while she has to do housework like cleaning the toilets. I told her I try do do as much house work as I think I should, but if she wants me to do more I will gladly do it. Domestic support is not one of her great qualities, but she does enough just to get by. Now that she said this I will try increasing the amount of work I do so she can have time with the kids.

She feels like I am too easy with the kids so they love me more. I have been doing a lot more fun things with the kids since my Plan A and I feel she is interpreting it as "giving away the store" . Her one example was when my 3 year old DD said "daddy can you put on my shoes" and I said "sure sweetie". I guess I should have said "you can put on your own shoes". Was that wrong?

Currently I do the following most of the time:
- load and unload the dishwasher
- vacuumm
- tidy up
- make the beds more than her since Plan A

I just get the feeling things are spiraling quickly downward. I don't want to give her a desperate or scared feeling but that is how I feel. I need to disconnect a little so I don't push her away more.

When I see stuff like her not wearing her wedding ring or wanting a seperate account or her buying real estate magazines it makes me anxious. I need to get over that feeling.

I hurt for you Hope. That last bit is especially painful. At the risk of being boring I'll say that even though she's giving you lots of lumps, it would help her to do it in front of a MC. MC might hurt you a bit, but the counseling might shorten the duration of the pain.

I have to admit my W has stopped going to MC after I exposed. She says "you've emptied my love tank, you'll have to do all the work". Ok that gives me something to go on. That I can do. I just want something I can work on, to demonstrate to W that I'm putting my all into it. Heck if she asked me to run a 3-minute mile I'd be working on that. After I've put in my best effort, at some point - not now - I may ask her "as you can see I've been fighting hard for our M. What worthy goal are YOU fighting for?" Or something like that.