Yes I'm not divorced but if feels like we are headed for a seperation. One good thing is she didn't say i will NEVER forgive you for exposure, but instead she doesn't know how long it will take to getover it.

Yes, I still have reserves left. Some days are better than others. I like the weekends since we are together more, but I really hate the nights when she doesn't talk to me at all and makes no effort.

She hasn't brought up the seperate bank account in a few weeks but she did say she wants to move away from her family (her and the kids only and not me).

Tonight should be interesting since the MC wants to get some of my W feelings out and talk about possible recovery goals. We barely made it to this session so I'm hoping for some continued progress tonight.

There is a very good chance she is still in contact with the OM, still deep in the A and in the fog. THAT is the reason you don't seem to be breaking through to her, she is an alien.

You just be your sweet lovable self, negotiate an end to the A, find out waht you can about continued contact, and make plans for Plan B.

Hi htw. Good luck tonight. You've seen this already, but what the heck here it is again. Big caveat first - as you know we're not yet in recovery, so grain of salt here. Anyway I think your W should benefit from unburdening herself in MC. Each time she unloads something that hurts you, her own load of pain is reduced. Not a great bargain for you, but the good thing is that she should eventually run out after a few sessions. Then her viewpoint and talk in MC will become more empathetic, which should help her progress.

Maybe that thought will help you keep from rising to the bait when she takes some undeserved shots at you in MC? Been there, done that, given a chance I would happily trade my own explosions during MC for a few minutes of suffering, letting WW have her catharsis.

How do you think the MC session will progress? Do you think you will get the floor for say the last 5 minutes for a few mild-mannered nonconfrontational comments?

wnh, your post was so prophetic and you to SHMI.

We went to MC session tonight and the C started digging for my W buried feelings of hurt and anger. Boy I felt vilified for the most part but at the end of the session my W agreed to an independent session with our MC. Last week she almost declined a second visit so I guess we are making some progress.

wnh, boy I had to really bite my tongue and one time I actually said "yes but" to which the MC quickly stopped me and said "no buts, she feels that way". So I kept my mouth shut for the rest of the session, but boy was it hard.

I could see the MC trying to empathize with my W for most of the session and at the end she then began to promote my "renewed changes". She also called my W on not telling me when she was upset over the years and said "he couldn't know you were upset if you didn't tell him".

She also asked my W straight up if there was anything with OM to which my W firmly denied.

So next week my W has a solo session to which I don't know what to expect. After the session the tension was far less than after our first session. We made some small talk and went to pick up a coffee and some groceries before heading home. So I was encouraged by that.

In the session she said she feels tension with me around and is only staying for the kids right now. She hasn't worn her wedding righ in 3 days now so that bothers me but I won't let it bait me.

On another note, I installed a tape recorder in my W car this morning and listened to it tonight. Turns out she is still talking to OM for non business issues (I highly suspected this) and her conversation was so nice and loving. Nothing incriminating but plenty of ga ga. SHMI you were right! She is still in the fog it seems. I need to record some incriminating evidence so I can proclaim d-day #2.

I think I have really been wanting to believe that there is no EA, but deep down my instinct (and the vents here) are telling me different. Why can't she just tell me. She is either in denial or just plain lying.

Tomorrow my W is picking up her girlfriend so I hope to get some good conversation there. She will defenitely de-brief her on last night's session and maybe make some nasty comments about me. On Friday I think she will be at OM location so hopefully they go to lunch together in my W car and I get some really good info. It is sad that I am hoping to hear something that will validate my instincts.

Well, this is a pretty big "note"....and one I think you are suprisingly downplaying......I think in a way you should feel a bit relieved, because at least you know why indeed you have been making NO PROGRESS !!!!!

You could better spend your money that you are burning in "marriage counseling" on donating to the Katrina fund, or the make-a-wish foundation....at least this way, someone benefits....you or your marriage are surely NOT benefiting from this MC with the present situation as it now stands.....and IMVHO, you are enabling the affair by continuing the charade of it.

Just my .02. Take it or leave it, surely this is not what you wanted ot hear, so I understand if you choose to leave it.

Best of Luck

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are right about this, but I am kind of confused here..........your instincts have been MORE THAN VALIDATED HERE.....are you a glutton for punishment...? What else do you need to hear to convince you of your instincts being correct?

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem, I think you are right in that MC is not going to help as long as she is in contact with OM.

All I want to do right now is continue Plan A and start snooping again to confirm an EA or PA. Well the EA is pretty much confirmed in my bood based on what I heard yesterday, but I would really like some concrete evidence.

Yes now that you mention it I am relieved that she is still in contact, because it tells me there is a reason Plan A doesn't seem to be working.

You mentioned enabling the affair, well what are your suggestions to change this. Are you refering to stating my boundaries and exposing again?

It looks as though they have pushed the EA further underground, but I will continue to look for the silver bullet.

Is is common for an EA to remain that for a long time or will the attraction quickly for it to a PA?

I hope to get some juicy info tonight as my W will be driving with her work girlfriend and facilitator of the EA.

Right now I need to really maintian a stron Plan A so that Plan B (if needed) will be more effective.

I'm glad you did some snooping. I'm not surprised as to what you found.

I hate to say this, but where there is smoke there is usually fire. Most married women do not secretly call other men for friendship. Most do not meet them out for dinner. Now your wife could be the 1 out of 1,000,000 where this is truly just a friendship, but those odds are even a little long even for Vegas.

If you feel bad now dealing with an EA, wait until it turns PA. Most will. Men and women that are that emotionally connected usually end up having sex. They just do. Then you have to worry about pregnancy and STDs and all that mess.

I don't know how long you should wait to do something. If you expose again too early you will blow your methods. It seems that your wife will continue to deny until you have glossy photos or something. If you stay quiet, then you may be enabling her bad behavior.

Maybe Mel or someone will pop back in and give you better guidance.

I'm sorry for your discovery, but at least your W's behavior now makes complete sense. It is them against the world and you are getting in the way and for that you must be punished.

I guess part of me is still in denial. Could she be in denial herself and believe it really is just friends?

Now that I have tasted some new information, I am even more determined to find out more. I don't know how this will eventually play out, but it will probably get much worse before it can get better.

My first step now is to gather as much information regarding the EA as possible and hopefully I will get concrete evidence that can't be denied, even by her.

It was hard to make out the whole conversation because of the road noise, but I could make out that she was giving OM information about what she heard from her director regarding his performance. There were no ILY or I miss you but the tone was defenitely loving.

This time I will be much more patient. I would love to get into her work email but that is almost impossible since I need the password to her laptop then her email password.

Hey Hope, sorry to have been away for so long with so much stuff happening with you.

My wife vehemently denied PA with MC (for first 2 sessions), me, and everyone else who knew about her affair for five weeks.

Just as we suspected your WW is in the fog big time and still ga ga over the OM. Get some more evidence, then re-expose. If you can, catch her in a lie at MC and if necessary play your tape(s) for the MC to hear with you.

Now, you're a real nice guy (like me) but it's time to bring out that inner ******. Not by LBing all over the place, but by being sneaky and subversive while being nice to her the whole time. Enough is enough. Quit entertaining the idea that someone has to forgive you for exposure. That's BS.

You are being wronged.

Your wife is lying to you.

She loves you and/or the life you provide enough to stick around.

It will turn PA if it hasn't already.

Again, no progress until NC. Your case is a perfect illustration of this principle. When you do get NC, you're in for some nasty surprises. You'll have to deal with them to stay married. You must get NC. Make sure the MC understands this.

In case it makes you feel better, an old buddy of mine from high school just found out his wife was having PA with three men, two of which he knew personally. Also, they are our age with similar age children. Epidemic? I look around and see marriages dropping like flies.

I'm hoping to get some real incriminating evidence, but so far it has just been loving talk. If I played it back to my WW I'm sure she wouldn't see anything wrong with it.


The problem is getting to NC since that will require my WW quitting her job. She has absolutely no intention of doing that right now. I will be restating my boundaries soon and letting her know that continued contact with OM hurts me deeply. She probably won't care, but I will let her know anyway.

Ouch that is wretched news. And it sounds like more ugliness to come. Sorry to hear that htw. Can I make a suggestion? Before your W's IC session, perhaps you want to have a 1-minute phone conversation with the counselor (she probably won't charge you anything) and tell her what you know, so that she can conduct her meeting with W accordingly. I did exactly that. Counselor was shocked that W would lie to him like that - and it made a huge difference in the way counselor handled my own WW. Not sure if you want to talk with W first so that IC can be in the open with her? Alternatively if you don't discuss it with W first, then IC will of course need to be a bit discreet in what she knows.

Here's a thought; Could it be your W feels guilty about bashing you in MC, while still being involved with OM? The more involved she is with OM, the worse she may feel about bashing you unjustly. Maybe subconsciously, but the guilt may be there. The more W bashes you (either in MC or not), the more guilt she takes on - winding the spring a little tighter. Then when she finds out what you've known for awhile, she may realize how rotten she's been, and the spring may pull things back towards where they should be. Ok just a thought FWIW. Experienced MBers think WW's load of guilt leads to fog, so not sure if that approach is good or not.

Good luck, and I hope the tape has something helpful to you.

My situation seems to be getting worse by the week. My WW has pretty much stopped wearing her wedding ring and barely talks to me at all. I told her I want to be happy together and she told me she can't be happy with me that she has lost her pride.

I found some papers in her purse that she contacted the bank regarding mortgage approval and what she can afford.

She has really dug her heels in with her family. She wants nothing to do with them anymore.

I feel like a wreck but I'm trying to put on a good face. Last night my Taker really wanted to come out and get angry.

Plan A doesn't seem to be working for me and I realy see Plan b in the near future, but I don't think it will have any effect on her either. She seems so determined to go her own way now.

I just don't know how I will go into Plan B since I don't want to leave the house. Should I ask her to leave or can I don Plan B while living together for a short while.

If I were you...

I would continue taping the conversations

Call the Harleys for a phone consult

Continue with Plan A

Make plans for Plan B


As an explanation...Plan A and Plan B doesn't "work", they are not manipulations, but a way to help your S fall in love with you again. Plan A is to show your W what a M to you would be like. Yes, she has complaints, about the past, show her a new and improved HTW. Your LoveBank is low. Move to Plan B before your Lovebank gets TOO low. Plan B is a way to protect what love you have left.

What I imagine is going through your WW's mind (after talking with my FWH)...She has given up on the M. She is not wearing her ring because it is over for her...that is the only way she can work it out in her mind that she can continue this R with OM. My guess is that he is using her...using her to get information for him. She is more into him than he is into her. It doesn't make it less hurtful.

A tactic A partners use is that they deny, deny, deny at every turn. They have probably talked aobut what to do during a D-day and exposure, they have worked out a strategy...and this is her tactic. She may be in denial, but my guess is she is going to deny this until she is faced with undeniable proof.

OM probably got VERY upset about the exposure, because it seems his career is paramount, and you upset that. I think the powers that be would be VERY interested to know that WW is passing along private/secret info to OM. THIS is one reason why employers don't like A's in the workplace.

Your WW is not going to get it, not a fast learner. I think you need to come up with a plan for separation (and Plan B, but she doesn't need to know that at first). Appeal to her career intentions. Ask her to move out so the kids can stay in the house, so she can concentrate on her career, and you can stay back, work on the house, get it ready to sell. THis way you both can find better houses, have more money to split. You can come up with a plan where she can spend time with the kids, and give her some starting up money...for a security deposit, etc. It may REALLY appeal to her to have a love shack... Put it all in writing.

Then after she moves out, BAM!, Plan B. You keep any visitation schedule or any other plans, but you just make sure when you talked about plans before, you didn't include any scheduled dates or MC with you.

I would recommend you NOT go back to MC, she is welcome to go to IC with the counselor, but it is a waste of money for you both to go now... My guess is that the counselor saw through the crapola and will confront her next time... She may not want to go back, or maybe they can establish a rapport where she spills her guts and the A, so the counselor will have a firmer handle on what fog they are dealing with...

Please don't give up hope this early, and don't expect things to "work". You can not manipulate the A...this is all up to THEM...but it WILL end, it's just a matter of time...

SHMI, I can't tell you how much your imput and that of others mean to me at such a difficult time in my life.

I will try to continue Plan A for a while longer even though some days I truly feel like a doormat.

I have this feeling that if I don't get undeniable proof of EA then I can't mover to Plan B. She needs to know I know for absolute sure.

The wedding ring thing really bothers me, but you are right she has given up on the marriage already. She needs to justify her actions.

I will start thinking of a plan to seperate my W from us but I don't think she will do anything less than 50/50 with the kids. If the A progresses then it might be easier.

She told me in July that she would not cheat on me while still married, so I think she wants to seperate to elevate her A with OM.

She has pretty much alienated everyone who loves her right now and she is very stubborn. I think she foggy and will not even reason with her own family.

I can tell she is very stressed about the whole situation.

Thanks again and I will let you know how things go this weekend

This is the worst day of my life.

I just confirmed that my WW is having a PA!

I listend to the tape recorder I put in her car and I could hear everything. I feel like throwing up.

What do I do now?

OK, I am gonna be honest with you here, and tell you that IMVHO in the grand scheme of things, NOTHING ELSE IS DIFFERENT today than yesterday. You kind of self deluded yourself into thinking things were "okay" if this was just an EA.....your marriage and the course of where things are going is no different today than it was yesterday...she was always talkign to him, and the "business" trip she took last week, was no doubt a chance to keep "business contact" going....I don't have marriage builder approved advice for you, but I would suggest you do an honest personal inventory of yourself and what you have done and what you can continue to do (Plan "A" behaviors) and still stay sane and be a productive father and person (work duties, etc..). This is a tough thing to swallow, but sadly to most of us reading, we are not the least bit suprised.....you shouldn't be either.

NOTHING is changed in your situation....your marriage is just as "recoverable" as it was yesterday....just realize that.

LM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am so sorry. What do you do now? Make a copy of the tape and take it to her. Its time to insist that she leave the job, Hope.

What did you hear on the tape?

htw I'm very sorry. What can I do to help?

To me PA versus EA didn't make much difference. Still don't know which my own WW had. Anyway to me it was the lying and disrespect that made things miserable. And there may not be much difference between the lying/disrespect that comes with an EA compared to a PA.

I imagine you'll be pretty wigged out for awhile. And not completely in control. Can I suggest you try to just relax and breathe? Tomorrow do the same. And the next day. Maybe don't do anything for awhile?

Your friends are thinking of you.