Here is the deal, she can't help if he calls in 2 weeks, but she can help how she handles it. She can end the call quickly and then she can be honest and tell you that he called. I had several calls from affair partners after my disclosure to my wife and I kindly told them I could no longer talk to them and then I called my wife to let her know I had one of them call. It wasn't pleasant calling to tell my wife, especially when I had several I had to report, but I was maintaining honesty and that is what is the important part.

HTW: My own WW said she was in NC, but that was a lie. Possibly she was so infatuated she found it better to lie than give him up? Continued that way for several weeks. When our MC found out she'd been lying to him, and me, he was floored. I don't think he'd ever been told such bald-faced lies before. What's the point? Be watchful. I agree there's no way to be sure of NC.

Well, don't expect the truth....your WW's actions are what matter...NOT HER WORDS. I would be hypervigilant in looking for contact....you can ask all you want, just don't expect a truthful answer. I think you have been gullible, and continue to do so....when you say stuff like "she is in NC" and then tell us in the same sentence that she took a call from him yesterday....you don't appear to be enforcing any such boundaries.

I am not an "expert"-never claimed to be, I am not "wise" like the plethora of others here, BUT I have been on this board long enough and have read enough of the stories of success and failure to smell that something is amiss. Your letting your "denial" and "hope" lead you here.

Remember, your Wayward Wife can NEVER respect you if you DON'T respect yourself first...I don't purpose to have the answers for you or what the "right" thing is to do here...but I sure as he** no what the wrong this is, and I still think there is alot of "wrong" going on in your wife's ACTIONS....this is not the start of recovery, or a NC attempt...more like a guy who does not take a shower for three days and "freshens" up with slapping on some speed stick.

Goodluck, I no doubt understand and sympathize with the daily kick in the ball$ that you are experiencing.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hope, I am honestly confused about why you say she is in no contact with she clearly is not. She is taking his calls and I suspect she is still working with him. That is not no contact. Not even close. Hope?

Lem & ML,

After thinking about your comments, I have to agree that WW is not yet in true NC. Her concept of NC and mine seem to be a little different and I will have to make my defenition of NC clear to her.

Yesterday she was given approval for a job transfer to a different office far away from OM. Her transfer is effective Nov 1 and I think at that point I will insist we send a new NC letter and stick to my defenition of NC.

Even though she says she will not go back to his office for the rest of the month, I can't trust her right now and will use the transfer date of Nov 1 as our new NC date. This morning I asked her if she was ok and she said "NO". I asked her if she intends to tell me if there is contact today to which she said "I gave you my word, please don't make this harder than it is". Well her word obviously doesn't hold much water right now and that is why I am very skeptical.

Although it is tough to hear, I need to hear your criticizm of the way I'm handling the current situation. This is all new to me and your support is priceless.

Last night WW came home from work and immediately lay on the couch covered with a blanket. She was kind of staring off into space for a while. I asked her if there was contact to which she said "none". Is continually asking about NC a LB? I don't see how to get around this.

Also, my WW told me that she had not received a call from our MC to schedule her IC so I called the MC and told her of the confirmed A. She replied that she now wants to see us together to avoid differing stories. It will be interesting to see how she deals with my WW now given that my WW looked her in the face and told her there was nothing between her and OM. Two days later I confirmed the PA. She has been very sypathetic to my WW and I think she truly believed what she was saying.

When I told my WW that I talked to MC and after telling her of the A she wanted to see us togehter, my WW got upset and slammed the door saying "I bet you feel good knowing you were right". I am having trouble now getting over the lies. Do the lies ever end once the fog clears? I will not be able to live like this indeffenitely.

My in-laws are becomming very suspicious of my WW and are putting more pressure on her. They have asked me to hire a PI (if they only knew I already know). I can see the pressure building in my WW. She is defiant, but sooner or later something will have to give.

So this is my question, on Nov 1 when we hopefully recommit to a second NC, how do I enforce this? What it she breaks NC? I believe she is trying even though it is not a 100% effort on her part, but that is what Dr. Haley said in SAA. He said that NC is very difficult for WS and I got the impression it is rarely initiated by the WS.

He said taking a vacation with WS right after NC is like "sleeping with the enemy" for a WS. So my concept of NC, at least as it applies in my case is to negotiate NC with WS in the hope that they got through withdrawl and allow the fog to clear. If I can get to that stage, I may have a chance to save my M.

Hope, will she send the nc letter now and agree to stop taking his calls? I think that if she breaks nc in the future, you should consider going to Plan B before this gets further out of control.

What about calling Steve Harley for counseling instead of this lady? She has sure not been supportive of you in the past and even equated your exposure with WW's adultery. Your W was able to con her and she won't be able to con SH.

She told me she doesn't want to go back to Steve for counseling. She didn't like her session with him. I guess he saw through her lies.

Can I give you something to think about? I wonder if your money wouldn't be better spent coaching with SH on your own for a session or two to get a PLAN.

And here is why I think this: I think your MC is scary and has only aggravated the problem with her lack of understanding about adultery. I don't think the affair would have evolved this far if she had addressed the real problem, instead of making your W feel like an entitled victim.

I don't envision that your MC has the savvy to guide you out of a paper sack much less this carefully mined field. SH DOES. Even though she may not talk to him right now, he can guide you in the best way to proceed. She can't do that. She is easy to BS, he can't be.

Counseling is a waste of time at best if it is not effective counseling. And I think your MC even caused harm.

My WW birthday is on October 18 and she has already told me a few weeks ago that she doesn't want anything since she wouldn't appreciate it.

Is there anything I can do that would acknowledge her birthday without being over bearing?

I was thinking of a card from the kids at the very least.

Probably just fine Hope...Don't overanalyze this too much.....this is kind of like the guy dying of a terminal Grade IV Glioblastoma Multiforme, and worried about missing his Hypertension water pill.

I feel for you, as you seem like a guy who is walking around on egg shells afraid of his own shadow with your WW.....Remember....SHE HAD THE AFFAIR !!! SHE BETRAYED YOU. You are the hero, not the villain here. Stop acting like it.

You seem so afraid of losing what you ALREADY have....Think about that for a little bit. I feel for you man...it is sad to watch. I don't have anything of additional value to say to you...My personal recovery book had nothing to do with this site, but it saved my life. I once told you the title of it, I advise you to start reading it asap, along of course with any other "Dr Harvey" sanctioned materials. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Your tank is obviously "not dry" yet, but please do not forget to take care of yourself. Your self esteem and dignity are no doubt taking a "hit" here, in the end you have to respect yourself.....before you can ever hope that your WW will do the same. She does NOT respect you now.

Remember, women do not want, weak, needy, clingy men. You can't be that, and expect to win the WW back. I am not sure what veneer you are portraying...but please be mindful of that (Dobson----a man of pure genius) !

You don't want to miss the forest for the trees.

Your life is NOT over, you are not dying of cancer, AIDS, or the Avian Flu (well yet at least <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)...you have your health, a job, and 2 beautiful children......certainly more than many other people....don't forget all of the gifts God has bestowed upon you.....DON'T FORGET. There is always, always someone off worse.

I operated on some 61 year old man on Sunday night that died right in the trauma bay (essentially dead on arrival, but we cracked his chest for lack of anything better to do).....MVA...not his fault.....He was going to retire at the end of December (early, with his house paid off, and 2 daughters out of college and married)....His wife is shattered, I fear beyond repair.....Now she has problems.....Perspective, my friend, perspective.

Sourmale<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks lem for putting things into perspective as usual. There is a deffenite line between Plan A (thoughful and caring) and tough love.

In September I took the approach of just letting go and hoping things turn around. They didn't and conversely got worse. I'm no longer turning a blind eye to this and I will confront my WW when I feel she is over stepping my boundaries.

D-Day #2 has put me one step close to Plan B. If she is unable to follow through with NC, then I an B.

You are right, perspective is everything, but I guess I'm in the fog as well so it is hard to see through right now.

I will get there.

Hope:

You will and I have no doubt....you in the end will not have a choice to "get there"...one way or the other. I just want for you to be able to do it with some semblance of self esteem, self worth, and self love....perhaps too much self here...but Lord knows you have not done enough of that these past months.

You are taking the worst that life has to offer right on the chin......you may be staggered, and wobbly, but your still standing..still "fighting", still "hoping". It probably in your life will get no worse than this....perhaps not the comforting words that you want to hear..but true nonetheless.

Sour <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

lem, I have defenitely taken one on the chin and it stings. Yes, it is darkest before the dawn and I'm looking for the sunrise.

My MIL said to me today..."when you have a beautiful dress and you take if for granted it can get stained."

I'm trying to clean that stain right now, but it is ground it deep and it may ruin the dress.

I think I have always had issues with self esteem, but this had taught me to be more assertive when necessary and less passive. My only focus in the past 4 months has been my WW to the detriment of my kids, friends, family and especially work. You are right, I need to change the focus on myself, but I'm not ready yet.

Today my WW came home from work and right after dinner she went to the couch with her blamket and fell asleep. She is still sleeping and looks as beautiful as ever. Even after all that she has put me through, the one constant is my love for her. Could the excessive sleeping be a symptom of withdrawl?

After reflecting on our M, I came to the realization that I never really opened up and became affectionate to her for fear of loosing her. Now it seems that is what has made her wayward.

Lem,

Yes, I am a Cavalier.

Hope,

"when you have a beautiful dress and you take if for granted it can get stained."

Bullcrap! MIL is trying to defend her daughter sleazy A. Remember, even though you may not have been the best husband, you did not deserve to be treated like dirt by your WW. But as we know blood is thicker than mud. MIL is just trying to excuse and protect her daughter. MIL is in her own fog.

"After reflecting on our M, I came to the realization that I never really opened up and became affectionate to her for fear of loosing her. Now it seems that is what has made her wayward."

Again, nonsense. You are not responsible for your WW's affair. She had other options. She chose the option that she deemed to be in her best interest--and only in her best interest. She was only thinking of herself. She cheated because she was/is selfish and was/is only concerned with her well being. You are not responsible for her affair. You may not have been the world's best husband, but the affair is for her to own. It is hers only.

On second thought, thinking of MIL comment makes me sick!

Who's dress are we talking about? Monica Lewinsky's famous blue one?

Come on here...excuses excuses for a bad behavior.

Mom may have taught her daughter that little trick.

It's more of the spin and blame of the WS and the foggy family.

YOU DID NOT make your W a WW. She made that choice to become a WW all by her wittle poor self.

And by following your stupid MIL's advice...how in the heck does an ignored dress get a stain on it?????HOW DOES THAT WORK???WHAT KINDA LOGIC IS THAT?

I'll tell you. Maybe she is also the mom of Monica...that blue dress sure did get stained didn't it?

I'd say back to your MIL this..."Yea you're right. A dress can get stained. And the DNA stain on it is from a stinkin' affair..Put that in your daughters' beret and smoke it!"

I am sorry to have to report that this innane drivel from the MIL is currently being submitted to the "Wayward Spouses annual ceremony of Moronic Sayings".....your MIL is not a Wayward Spouse, but the level of stupidity that this comment garnered was enough to trigger an investigation and submission.....Hope..my friend, you now have 2 submissions to this annual ceremony.....your WW and MIL...the FIL have anything genius to say about any of this.....?

I am not making light of your situation (well maybe, I am <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), but you get the point...laugh a little, otherwise you would just cry..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I never thought my MIL's comment about a stained dress would raise the ire of so many.

Lem, I'm sure I will have a few more submissions to the "Wayward Spouses annual ceremony of Moronic Sayings" as the weeks progress.

Don't forget to include my WW insistance that it is not an A but a "MOMENT OF WEAKNESS" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

In hindsight it is a dumb comment considering the circumstances, but in all fairness to my MIL and in-laws in general they have been extremely supportive of me.

My MIL and BIL wanted to give me some money to hire a PI to see if OM was involved. If they only knew that I already have the goods.

My IL have said they will completely disown and cutoff my WW the breakup of my family is due to an A.

My MIL is a woman of truth and character and that is why my WW is in conflict with her right now. She watches my kids and I see her praying the Rosary daily. My MIL sees through the lies and is confronting her. My WW does not like this and has become confrontational with her.

She treats me like a son and in fact my BIL called me last night to tell me he would be willing to use his holidays to spy on my WW. Sure he is her brother, but a wrong is a wrong to him regardless of blood. These are people of extreme character and that is why my WW is distancing herself from them. This is what my BIL told me last night "you know how my parents feel about you so don't be afraid of my sister's act. If there is OM involved they will support you".

My MIL's comment was wrong, but that will not change how I feel about her or my IL. She doesn't know the whole story either and that has been further clouded by my WW babble to her. I highly respect her for she displays character, honour and truth.

If it wasn't for their full support during this time, I don't know where I would be.

I feel better today for some reason. I think it has to do with that fact that maybe, just maybe, this A maybe dyling a slow death.

My WW can't hide behind her lies anymore and she knows I know the whole truth. My WW family is on to her and turning up the pressure.

The OM knows that I know and he might be scared for his job or personal safety. They both know I am capable of exposing again and if I need to I will pull the trigger to blast a light through the darkness.

I keep praying and stay vigilant.

Hope,

You are making a big mistake by not telling your ILs the truth, even though you believe that would cause discord between you and your wife. So what? She'll get over it.

But in the meanwhile your are deceiving your ILs by not disclosing the truth when they know something is wrong but can't quite put their hands on it. In short, you are being very direspectful to them. When they learn that you knew and never told them while they were killing themselves trying to figure this out, they will feel betrayed not only by WW but also by you. Your credibility will then take a big hit with them and they may be less supportive of you. Do not deceive them like your WW deceived you. Treat them like the adult rational beings that they are. They may be your best allies in this. They will not abandon WW and can only help you in this, if their characters are as you say they are. So tell them the truth. As you should know, half-truths and lack of disclosures can be as deceiftful as bold-faced lies.

Well I was in the area of my WW work and called her up to see if she wanted to go for a quick lunch. I was afraid she would say no since she rejected my invitation to go out a couple of weeks ago.

She hesitated for a while and then she agreed. I picked her up and we went for a quick lunch. It was awkward and she seemed to have trouble looking me in the eye at times. It was all small talk, but that is to be expected right now. She just doesn't seem to have any interest in me right now. I hope it is just the fog and when she gets through her withdrawl she will start to reconnect a little.

Tonight I offered to get some take out for dinner with the kids and she also agreed.

If she is going through withdrawl, should I just give her some time and space. She doesn't really seem to be angry or anxious and I remember reading that these are symptoms. She just seems to want to get under her blanket and sleep when she is not eating or doing something else around the house.

I'm curious as to what others have experience with withdrawl be it a BS or WS.

Thanks

I hate what she did to me. She took everything I had and smashed into a million pieces.

My trust, my love, my friendship, my sense of safety, my future...everyting. I hate her for what she did to me and she has NO remorse.

I hate living like this everyday, trying to be the best husband I can be while I get indifference.

Her priorities are out the window. It seems her number one goal right now is looking good.

If she is happy, it is not because of me and that makes me sad. It is a riptide in the form of hopelessness that sucks me into the depths of dispair.

She had the nerve to call me a liar today. Can she not see that she has betrayed me to the core or my soul. I feel crushed by the weight of her selfishness.

I really wish the OM harm and I can't help it. He took everything I had used it for his own self fulfilment. I feel a rage when I think of him and what he did to me and my family.

She said he took her away from her problems and made her feel special. He was so natural.

I don't know if I want her anymore after all the pain and hurt she has inflicted on me. She probably feels like she is making some huge sacrifice to try and work this out.

How can I ever trust her again or feel safe with her?

I know the OM e-mail and want to send him an email to warn him that I will do ANYTHING to protect my family.

How can someone who does something so dishonest, wrong, sinful and immoral, not be remorseful or repentent?

I'm in a bad place right now and don't want to stay here too long for I fear what it will do my soul.

Betrayal by the one you love the most is a hurt that cannot be healed.

The pain is too much. The hurt is unending. The sorrow is deep.

Can we recover...maybe

Can I recover...I don't know

And with all this...I still love her.

How can Love be so cruel?