HTW,

If she is still actively wayward, then the office thing won't be a change at all. Can you find out if she is still cheating?

My H and I live in a very small town and running into the OW is almost unavoidable, esp. since her kids and mine are friends and attend the same school. I used to freak about it and I still don't like it. But, I can't control the world, just my little part in it. Even that is in God's hands.

I have talked with my H about NC. At first, he was all about how riduculous it is to limit who he talks to and didn't like restrictions at all. Now I think he finally gets it. The rule for us is that he can not go where he knows she will be until we are well into recovery. If he can't avoid seeing her, E.G. when she comes up behind him and says "hi", then he is to keep it business like and brief. Then he needs to tell me if there has been contact, no matter how short.

He wasn't happy about it but it keeps me from becoming upset and feeling lied to again. That should make his life easier just by itself. Also, the kids give him he77 when they find out he has talked with her.

Talk with her and let her know that you have a line that she can't cross.

What do the vets think?

Loni

That is the million dollar question. Now that she works out of a different office location, she would have to meet OM by driving 20 minutes or so to a meeting place during lunch or during the day and meet with OM. That takes time but it is still possible.

This NC thing is so hard to enforce. All I can do right now is stay vigilant and let her know what my boundaries are. I will let her know tonight that I can't accept anymore contact after today.

She doesn't go out at night so if she is wayward it is happening during the day. I don't know if she is emailing him or talking to him over the phone during the day.

I'm glad that your husband is finally realizing how important NC is. If only all WS would start realize this.

HTW:

The difficulty is the Fogstate WS lies to protect what they perceive the "love of their life". Even when they tell you they are not seeing the OP, so many times they do. She would be in deep depression if she was going through WD from the OM. I would say she is sneaking around daily getting her fix from the OM, at the expense of staying disconnected from you. I would press her hard and make her consider quitting her job to insure NC. The price of these affairs are very damaging emotionally and financially.

TooSoon

TooSoon, my WW came home tonight from work and barely acknowledged me. Then she changed into her PJ's had a quick dinner and went to lie on the couch.

Very little interaction with kids, she just seemed drained tonight. I know from the past when she has been in physical contact with OM she would be in a good mood and actually engage me in some conversation.

Her behaviour tonight is strange since she will be going to OM office location tomorrow for the last time. I don't know what is going through her head.

Is she down because it will be last time she will be at his location?

Is she down because of WD symptoms?

Is she just tired?

Was she in contact OM today and is now down because of it?

I thought she would be in a good mood tonight anticipating contact with OM tomorrow. Strange.

I just avoided her tonight because I couldn't read her at all. Last night she got really upset at something trivial I did so I'm just keeping my distance right now.

Maybe some turmoil building in her head. I have no idea what is going on with her right now.

She is under lots of pressure right now...

I'm in Plan A.
She know if I discover any contact that she does not inform me of and I expose to all.
Her family is pressuring her.
She is transfering from OM office location.
She is only receiving support from "new" friends at her work.

Sooner or later something has to break. If she has buried this A further underground, it can't stay there.

OM is notorious for office flings so I don't know what his plans are.

It will be interesting to see my WW mood tomorrow.

HTW:

I know the roller coaster ride you are on. I used to hang on to every word my FWW would say in my desires to save the marriage. She too was deep in the fog and would lie to me daily to protect and coverup her ongoing relationship and contact. She even attempted to negotiate with me that she keep him as her best friend since they had a special bond. She was planning on giving up her family, house, kids, furniture, stability, and even her dog to be with her OM. How do you justify throwing away 20 plus years of marriage and family life to be with a guy young enough to be her son.

It was exposure and the threat of more of it that broke her relationship and forced her back against her will and desire. It was a long and painful recovery period since she really didn't want to recover. In time, the WS slowly disconnects from their lover and slowly begin reconnecting with the spouse.

It has been said that many women fall in love with their lovers and many men fall in lust with theirs. Maybe your WW is having problems with her lover since he is not as committed to her as she is to him. That would be good if that was possibly happening. So many BS's win their spouses back after the WS is dumped by their lover, yet still recover.

You are doing well with your attitude and you sound like a veteran with tons of knowledge.

TooSoon

TooSoon, what you went through sounds similar to what I am going through now so your advice is extremely helpful. Thanks!

Like your FWW my WW has agreed to NC because I exposed back in July when it was an EA (I got the just friends routine) and she knows I will do it again if she breaks NC without me knowing.

Yes today she is working from OM office location and will probably be in contact with OM but it is for business and should be the last time there is contact...I hope. I feel very anxious today since I don't know what to expect tonight when she gets home.

About hanging on to every word WW says...that is soo true. I cringe at the thought my WW wants to start talking about seperation and splitting assets.

AS to whether OM is committed to my WW or not..I don't really know. He is single has no kids and has had relationships at the office before so I don't expect him to be a long term relationship guy.

Now that my WW is transfering locations I hope it might give him the incentive to seek out other women and hopefully my WW will find out and become resentful towards him. Time will tell.

In the mean time I continue to Plan A and look signs of progress. None yet but I'm still hopeful.

My WW shows no signs of wanting to recover as yours did. How long after NC did it take for her to show interest in the M again and make an effort in the recovery process. I would like to hear more about your story.

I personally think that timelines are different for everyone since sitches are different for everyone. I hope that the OM finds someone else and your W gets to see what a loser he really is. Afterall the guy has to be a loser to be messing around with a married woman in the family car with a car seat in the back. It could almost be a scene from a sitcom if it wasn't so pathetic. Sorry, hope that didn't upset you and renew an old hurt.

imho, I would try to just get through every day one at a time. Plan A as hard as you can while being good to yourself. Withdrawal is going to take awhile and it won't be pretty. I'm sending you all kinds of good thoughts and praying for your strength and that withdrawal will be over soon for both of you.

<hugs>
Loni

Thanks Loni,

How low is it for the OM or WS to fool around in the family car with car seats in the back. Whenever I think of that it pains me to know my WW couldn't even stop herself with the thought of her kids.

Don't be sorry for bringing it up since I am dealing with it and my WW will have to deal with that at some point.

I am taking one day at a time right now, and hoping that she stops the seperation talk. I'm afraid after her contact today it will put us back to day 1 of withdrawal assuming there was no contact for the last 3 weeks, which I doubt.

I am starting to feel stronger and less concerned with what she is doing. I guess you can call it detachment, but it helps me get through the day.

Thanks Loni..

My wife will come home from work tonight having been at the OM office location for the last time. If she is truly in NC this will be the last time she sees him, unless she makes arrangements to see him outside of work.

My question is I don't know how my WW will be at home tonight. Usually she is cold and distant but I want to ask about how things went and confirm NC from her on in.

How do I do this without LB'ing and smothering her?

Gauge her mood when she comes in, but I'd say calmly, quietly, politely ask her point blank. Start with "So, how did today go?"...and then steer the conversation towards contact with OM if she doesn't go for it directly.

If she gets angry, simply tell her how you're really feeling. Knowing that it was possible he was there, and knowing that any kind of contact is NOT a good thing towards re-building your marriage, OF COURSE you want to know how today went.

Keep the plan A going at the same time...have dinner started, or something nice set up to make her homecoming a little better. Hope that helps.

Hope you don't stand a chance as long as she is even near that a-wipe. She may as well still be working in the same office with him.

With the holidays approaching, I would say your W is "nuttier than a fruit cake" and I don't envy you one bit. You're a better man than I. I told myself I'd only wait on my W unitl the end of summer but she easily beat that- without even knowing the deadline. I couldn't have made it any longer, so kudos to you for being tough.

HTW:

On DD, my FWW confirmed to me that she is having an affair and she stated, “the problem you have is, I am in love with another man”. You know how that feels to have the rug pulled out from under your feet. She refused to answer any questions that I would ask her. She said she was leaving the house that evening, but I wouldn’t let her. I knew if she left, she might not come home. All hello broke loose at that point and I was not even really surprised for I sensed it for a long time. Previously, there was too much missing time, she was coming home late from work, she was leaving early in the morning for work, she was gearing me for her to begin working Saturdays, etc. and she was completely disconnected from me.

I exposed her to some of her family and tried to get them to talk to her. They made no progress since she was so far gone in the fog and so madly in love with her OM. She was apartment and furniture shopping and tucking away money, which I found out later and preparing to leave her entire family. To sum up a long story, more exposure began breaking her down and she agreed to MC. All through MC, we were not reconnecting. I had found MB by then and I was using everything I learned in MB and in the books to break her affair. I kept insisting she quit her job. She lobbied to keep her best friend as part of her negotiations with me. She even confessed to having an affair with a co-worker before we were married and told me she was strong enough to end the affair with a married man and said she was strong enough to end this one.

Here was the problem and it might apply to you. Her lover was young, single, lonely, and was in love with my wife. He was educated and had a high ego. He was determined to win my wife away from the family. I threatened to do the ultimate damage by totally exposing her and him at their work, to her mother, and I promised to destroy both their reputations. On one of our MC sessions, the OM came into the parking lot and drove slow in front of my car. My FWW told him when, where, and who our MC was. That was day, I gave her the ultimatum in front of the MC. Him or your family, and if you choose him, I will be at your office the next day and everyone on personnel will know. I will then leave and go to your elderly mother’s home. This period was 60 days from DD. She agreed to give her two weeks notice the next day and she did.

Two weeks later and on her final day at work, she went into major depression, tears, etc. This lasted for over 2 to 2.5 months. She was giving me little signs of being nice and would talk to me as a wife. From DD, it took about 6 months for FWW to express her first signs of real remorse and for the first 8 to 12 months since DD, it was an emotional roller coaster. From about 12 to 15 months, there was less anxiety in our relationship and less of the roller coaster. Since, then things have leveled off to a more normal relationship. I must say though, it never leaves you inside. I do not believe she has had any contact but after what I have been through, she may have had many. She never admitted to any sex and that may or may not be true. Lying was the norm for so long that I never knew if she even knew what the word truth meant.

We are doing well today but I would never go through it again. It was too hard and I don’t have it in me to do it again. If she had a relapse, I would let her go. I am real sure about that in my mind. She is happy today and we talk about her affair in a matter of fact tone of voice. We chalk it up as a very bad period in our life. I hope my story will instill some hope into you since my wife was pretty far gone too.

TooSoon

TooSoon, no matter how many stories I hear about affairs, they all are seem so unreal. Hearing of how the situations go from absolute dispair to recovery gives me hope

The part about starting early, finishing late and working more Saturdays sounds so familiar. I didn't want to acknowledge the signs. Other signs were, working out more, dressing nicer, new bras and underwear, etc.

I'm glad that you have recovered you M and are in a position with less anxiety in your life. I know what you mean about not being able to go through this again. You've been through alot as most BS's have.

In fact I am starting to wonder whether it is worth the effort on my part even to try and recover this M, espcially since my WW doesn't seem to display one ounce of committment right now. I am starting to understand what Dr Harley means when he says Plan A and Plan B help the BS loose their love for a WS.

Last night my WW came home from work and immediately put on her PJ's, had dinner with me (very quite), played a little with the kids and then lay on the couch and slept until she went to bed. I sensed she was a little down so I took care of everything else (i.e. dishes, lunches for kids, getting kids ready for bed, ect.)

Almost a carbon copy of last night.

I didn't ask about contact with OM and will leave that for the later this week or the weekend when she seems more open to discussion. She didn't seem in a very responsive mood last night.

TooSoon, at what point after NC did you FWW start to show signs of being nicer and talk to you as a wife? Was it after the 2 to 2.5 month withdrawal period you described? I'm not here yet but hope I get there some day and would like to know the approximate timing in you case.

I feel good about my WW finally transfering office locations. Now the only way for her to make physical contact is to arrange to meet with OM outside of work which will be more difficult, but not impossible.

I am so tempted to visit OM and give him an ultimatum.

Thanks for the insight!

mflake, yes I have patience but it won't last forever. Since we are relatively early in NC I need to give this time and see what happens. I hope she really is in NC and starts to reconnect with me and show some remorse.

We will see...

Hi HTW,

Thanks for putting my mind at ease. I really think it would be a good idea to hang in there just a little while longer. Is the marriage worth saving? Was she a good wife and mother before the A? Are your children going to do better with you together or apart?

Only you can answer these questions. I know that withdrawal can't start until the "drug" is taken away. Her drug has been removed from her reach. Will she abstain from getting out the ladder to get to it? I hope not. Remember, Plan A is intended to seperate the WS from the OP. That is just beginning to happen. Now is the time to lovingly detach. Read up on withdrawal and learn what to expect from the tigress she will become. If you can detach emotionally from her, but still do a great plan A, you will be stronger and more able to deal with the fog induced, hate filled nasty comments that will come from the mouth you used to love to kiss. It is very hard to detach emotionally. Believe me, I couldn't have done it a year ago. Now I am the queen of loving detachment. You have to treat her like you would a drug addict. She is making some of the most important steps in the right direction even if she isn't happy about them.

To her, she is losing the love of her life. I know, <gag>. That is the fog. She is going to have to deal with this on her own. She caused her own pain right now. You don't have to feel sorry for her. I wouldn't. What will help you save your marriage is if she sees that you are the safe place for her to land when she is done falling. Stay firm, stay steady.

Sending you lots of prayers and hugs,
Loni

Hi Loni,

As I read you situation I get the feeling that your WH is slowly coming out of the fog and that you are doing a much better job Plan A'ing.

My M is defenitely worth saving. My W (not WW) is a wonderful mother and loving wife. I miss her (emotionally) dearly and hope one day she returns. My children will be devestated if we are apart since we both love our kids so much and they rely on both of us.

Although many times I have vented my frustration here, I want more that anything to recover my M and build a new and better R with my WW. During tough times I do feel like giving up, but that passes and I get back to the job of trying to recover my M and defog my WW.

My short term goal is to get to the end of this month without my WW bringing up seperation talk and to try and maintain NC. That should give us about 3 weeks of NC and maybe time for her to defog a little. As far as I know my WW has only seen OM 3 times (each for work) since October 7th with yesterday being the last time she is to have physical contact with him. If she has taken this underground, then everything I have just said means nothing.

In Plan A the BS tries to negotiate an end to the A and I hope to have done that.

My WW doesn't really have angry outbursts, but she does produce mean sarcastic remarks. Last night I used her car to pick up some groceries. When I got home she said "why did you use my car". I explained that I routinely use her car to pick up groceries and I wanted to fill it with gas as I normally do. She said "that BS and you know it".

So that is what I am dealing with.

Then this morning while lying in bed togeter we had a brief conversation about small things (no R-talk). She seemed pleasant and nice.

I'm sure if I gave her reason to she would have many more AO's towards me. I'm trying to keep those to a minimum by continuing a strong Plan A.

I feel we need to get out of the house and have some fun just to break up this constant state of tension. She won't go out alone with me, but I will suggest going out with the kids to have some fun.

I have become much, much better at detaching lovingly. It is sooooo hard but I'm realizing that I can't control what she does, just the things I do. The added benefit of this is that it puts less pressure on her and makes me feel better since I'm not focusing on my WW 100% of the time.

I don't call her during the day since whenever I do, I get the feeling I'm bothering her and since she really doesn't talk much to me it makes me look needy and clingly.

I'm trying to be a very safe and loving place for her to land. I just hopes the landing comes soon.

People always talk about the "safe place to land" concept, but I still don't fully understand it. Are they refering to being there for the WS when they go through withdrawal and start to realize what they have done? If anyone could expand on this it would be apprecaited.

During WD from the OM, my FWW would occasionally be nice and cordial in the home but it was primarily for the kid's sake, not for mine. She begrudged me for exposing her and forcing her to quit the job she loved, but I held firm on my grounds that it was not to hurt her, just to kill the the relationship with her OM.

I took her to an overnight concert about 45 days after DD and it was like taking a stranger. She barely talked to me. We had SF but it was mechanical. She was trying but remained connected to the OM. I was looking for any kind of normalcy but it was slow coming. She recommitted to staying with the family at the time and she quit her job, but it wasn't in her heart.

Looking back, she was likely in some contact with the OM for a period, but I continued to warn her that her pain will not subside if contact continues. I think it took 4 to 5 months past NC before she began showing signs of being remorseful and maybe a full 6 months before she admitted she made a mistake. (Her pride was working against her at the time.) This was big to me because I was having difficulty forgiving her since she wasn't sorry for her actions in the affair. I chose to forgive her anyway.

I remember seeing new bras and panties laying on the bathroom floor during the affair too. Missing times, lots of shopping trips, etc. She was working out daily on the treadmill and she was drinking heavily in the evenings. She would not let me kiss her but I could have sex with her. It was very difficult and confusing times.

In time, she began sharing the details of the affair. She said there was kissing, hugging, and I love you statements being stated. She maintains there was no sex but it was leading to that, she felt. I busted her in January and the I love you's began in December and there may not have been an opportunity for them to have sexual fun. She says up till then they were both acting like best friends but it was in an evolving state. Since she was older and married, they were both treading lightly with each other. They were drawing in the park, having daily lunches, etc.

During one of our massive fights over her being with the OM, I told her to leave the house. I packed every piece of clothes she had into green garbage backs and put them in the LR for her to take and in the trunk of her car. She left the house and stayed all night with the OM. She was distressed and was heavy on her period and says she slept on the couch at his house. Do I believe her? I will never know the real answer if she slept with him. If she did, she will take it to her grave. There is a side to me that believes she never did because we had huge fights over the affair and she would say anything she could say to hurt me but never admitted to sex with the OM. She came back the next day and said she knew she didn't belong at his house. Her clothes were stuffed in sacks and she began putting them away. It took her a week to put them back and she hated me daily for that. The BS gets blamed for everything the WS causes to happen.

In time, I heard where the lovers went, what they did, where they ate, what movies they saw, etc. She told me times and dates and went into great length to share the details to make me better understand. This was all part of the rebuilding period. I needed to know the detail and she needed to clear the air. I even made it ok for her if she had sex since the betrayal was worse than the sex act itself. She did not admit to the sex and maybe she never had sex. DD will be 24 months in December and I still wonder inside but I choose to move forward and try not to think about it.

Today, she says she was over her head completely and knows that the whole thing was a big mistake. She knows today there was no future but back then, she even talking about escaping to Canada to get away from her marriage and family with the OM. She was trying to get way from me. I lost 30 lbs and couldn't eat nor sleep. She could see the pain she was causing and her way of dealing with it was to leave me. She pretended to be trying to work on the marriage but was apartment hunting with the OM at the same time. She put down money on an apartment and I convinced her to give it one more day at the house.

I think I agreed to allow her to stay on her job if she would stay home, which enabled the affair to continue. I was desperate but hopeful. 5 to 6 weeks later with daily pain and ongoing MC sessions, I gave her an ultimadum, him or I. She quit her job then and WD kicked in. She hated every part of my being at the time. A few months later she would throw it in my face that I took away her best friend and the job she loved. I just had to take it and move forward. My MC told me in time she would feel remorseful and for me to be patient. She was right, the remorse came, her consciuos came back, and then she tried to justify to me why she did what she did. She said it started as an accident but it grew beyond her control. She fell in love and she described it in the same manner when she fell in love with me. She said she thought about him from the time she woke up to the time she went to bed.

I paid moneyto find out everything about the OM. I knew where he worked, where he lived, his age and address. I then called his parents and the results of exposure began to work. His parents blamed my wife 100% and I told my wife that. She said I was lying, but her OM began saying the same thing that I told her that his parents told me and she began seeing the OM was not 100% loyal to her, etc. She was getting pressure from the family I had told and the relationship began to crumble one day at a time. It was the threat of 100% exposure to her mother, her entire family, and her employer that made her stop the affair. The embarrassment and humiliation of everyone knowing was too great for her and she agreed to stop the affair.

Use the tools that MB tells you to use. Don't be afraid of the damage because that is already happening in your marriage. Radical problems require radical solutions. There is hope but it takes months and months of pain to undo what is perceived by the lovers as real love.

It is weird to rethink the events but I hope it instills hope with you. My marriage was gone as I knew it for over 20 years but it has been saved. You must fight hard and treat it like the enemy has invaded your family.

I bounced around but I wanted to show you how bad it was and how it can turn around in time.

TooSoon

I have a new development to report...and I need help.

I just found out from my MIL that my WW is planning on waiting until after Christmas to seperate with me. My WW told this to my MIL and she (MIL) is extremely upset with my WW.

What do I do now?

I don't know if she is still in contact but her whole family is questioning why she is acting this way and why she wants to leave.

I told her I would not expose to her family if she remained in NC, so should I expose or try to find out if she has broken NC first. If I expose when I promised not to that will be a major LB'er.

I don't know what to do and feel like this is slipping away from me.

HTW I'm thinking there could be some good to that. Could it be good to know that nothing's planned for 6 weeks? Seems possible that could get your WW through withdrawal and a few steps into recovery... Personally, in my sitch, I would welcome a timeout without threat of separation or D for 6 weeks.

Hope, I don't believe for a minute that contact has ended. She has only gone further underground. She is not a woman who is in withdrawal; she is a woman who is entrenched in an affair. As this continues on and on, your W grows deeper and deeper in her committment to the OM and in the destruction of your marriage. All because you can't catch her.

In short, you are concerned about exposure being a lovebuster, but you won't have to worry about lovebusters real soon here, because your W is going to leave you. She is going to leave you unless you nip this affair in the bud boldly.

HTW

My heart breaks for you to hear something like that, but let me offer you some perspective.

I firmly believe my wife is making alternative plans also even while we are working on marriage. I have come to the conclusion it is the foggy state of mind. Until that changes, she will most likely if not actively have a plan, at least passively being thinking about a plan.

If you know NC has been broken then I would say you may need to expose. Hopefully someone else will chime in on this.

Not that I am an expert and I am sure some others may have better advice.

Don't let her lack of commitment destroy what you are working on. Remember, Satan is against family. I don't know your belief system, but I would suspect you know this to be a spirtual battle as much as anything. Stay strong. Let's see what some others see.

I will pray for you right now and hope some wise counsel will come your way.

WOL