MEL, you haven't answered my question. What if I ask her to follow through with her plans on leaving (without the kids and furniture or course) and she decides to stay instead and continue the A? I won't be able to handle that.

I can't handle much more of this blatant disrespect. She has crossed my boundaries and I am feeling like I am ready to LB big time. I'm already letting some DJ come out.

I am getting worn down and she seems to be doing just fine. It makes me sick to my stomach.

Hope she is staying and continuing the affair anyway.....I think the fact she went to the OM's office and didn't leave until 6:30 says something. She is not being distant and not treating you the way she is because of who you are, its because she is in the midst of an affair fog.

If you tell her to leave and she doesn't you are no worst off than you are right now. At least she knows you are starting to be angry with her actions. Maybe it's time for the monster in you to come out a little.


P.S. And I mean monster in a nice sense as being a little more aggressive.

Askme, due to my Plan A, it has been a long, long time since I have been visually angry at my WW. My TAKER is becoming very impatient lately and I feel he is starting to takeover my GIVER.

I've been in Plan A for over 4 months now and it is starting to wear me down. This is especially true when I find out there is continued contact between my WW and OM.

I feel so disrespected and hurt. I wish she could feel what I feel even for a few minutes.

I wish she feels what I am feeling when I'm waiting for her at home with my kids and she is late from work. The anxiety, the fear, the hurt, the pain, the anger, the resentment. I just want some normalcy and stability in my life again.

I need to get control of my life again.

This is a nightmare that I can't wake up from...

You know, the phrase that you used..."My TAKER is becoming very impatient lately and I feel he is starting to takeover my GIVER. "

Is EXACTLY the phrase that SH uses to identify when plan B should be considered. The point of plan B is to end contact between the spouses in an attempt at saving whatever love for the WS the BS has...and gives the BS the opportunity to begin to discover life without the WS. AND has the added value of forcing the OP to begin meeting ALL of the WS's ENs.

My advice at this point is NON-MB supported...be warned now.

Myself, I think you should give her an ultimatum. MB does NOT support doing this, but it works depending on circumstances. I'd tell her point blank to end contact with OM RIGHT NOW...or get the heck out. Don't make it optional, don't accept a "no, I'm not leaving" response. If you have to, take a day off work while she's at work to pack her stuff in trash bags and change the locks. Make it crystal clear to her that you're tired of the sorry games you're playing, and that you've reached a limit in the crap you'll take from her. She's got a choice...a husband and a family and a home...or get out and don't come back.

I gave my wife a similar ultimatum when she was getting ready to fly away to live with OM. I told her that if she got on that plane, she could NEVER come back. I would never want to have anything to do with her ever again. We would NEVER be a family again...the kids (all older teens right now) would have to work out how they wanted to spend time between her and I, and what events they wanted her at and what events they wanted me at...because if she got on that plane I'd never share a room with her again. If I saw her again after that, the only thing I would see would be her 'with' OM. She'd lose me, our family, and not just me as a husband, but me as a friend as well. And the kids had already told her that if she got on that plane, that they would NOT come to stay with her any sooner than a year after she left...because they refused to let what she was doing disrupt their schooling...and they did this completely unprompted by me.

She got a VERY harsh wake up call that day...she could have what she wanted...at the cost of EVERYTHING else.

Perhaps your wife needs some similar wake up call? Lets see what the experts say on this.

HTW:

The title of your now somewhat enormously long thread asks "What next?" Without presuming to be any kind of expert or guru, or even someone qualified to render advice, I'll tell you what I think about "what next...."

First, keep in mind that I'm new here as a poster, but not new to your entire thread HTW, which I've been following for quite a while, actually since it began.

HTW, I just want to say this once, and I don't mean to be critical, but just take this as a sort of clinical observation based on what you've written over these past months: What you are doing now and what you have been doing since you learned of your W's A with OM hasn't really worked. You know that. Deep down, you know that, and that's why you keep asking, "What's the plan?"

You need to take some definitive action. You need to do something decisive. You need to come to the realization that there is NO tomorrow, only today, and the status quo isn't working for you, and it sure doesn't seem to be working for your WW.

Before I tell you what *I* would do, just understand that no one, not me, not any of the other folks here who have been giving and dispensing advice and "plans" to you really have any stake in the outcome of your marriage or your life. We all (presumably) mean well, and certainly intend you no harm, but in the end, it's YOUR life, and you MUST take control of it, or events will continue to overwhelm you. No one can push you to that point, but you need to grow a sense that whatever you do, everything will work out for the best. One way or the other.

Now, what would *I* do if I were in your shoes? (And while I haven't shared my story yet, let's just say I was sorta, kinda in your situation about a year ago when I discovered my W's A; we're almost fully R now and things are good, but mileage and results may vary, so this advice may not work for everyone) Here's what I'd do, if I were you:

I would say to your W: "W, you have two choices, and only two choices:

"Choice 1: Quit your job, get another one, and cease all contact with OM, immediately. No more cell calls. No more personal visits. Nothing. Nada. You give me all of your e-mail and cell phone passwords. I get to know where you are at all times. Complete transparency. No more secrets. When you earn my trust back, by demonstrating that you are trustworthy, perhaps then I'll stop asking or snooping, but for now, these are my conditions."

More on Choice 1: "You also need to get into IC. When you've figured out what it is about YOU, dear WW, that made you think you could do what you did and not have it impact our family, then we will begin the process of MC."

That's what I'd give her as Choice No. 1, and I'd do it immediately.

I know that you have written about the fact she makes more than you, and if she lost her job, it would be a huge economic shock. But if she doesn't leave and get another job, and continues to see OM, or speak with him, you're headed for divorce, and believe me, (and I'm speaking as a practicing lawyer now, with more than 25 years of litigation and trial experience), if you're afraid of adverse economic consequences, just wait until you hit the divorce trail. You ain't seen nothing compared to that, and if you stay together and she gets employment elsewhere, even with a pay cut, you'll be way, way ahead in the long run. You can always make money....You can't always make a marriage.

Bottom line of choice 1: She needs to be DONE with this OM. Now. She needs to recommit to the M, otherwise you go to Choice 2:

But first you calmly and clearly give her choice No. 1. YOU lay down YOUR boundaries and your conditions about what YOU need.

If she doesn't agree, you go to Choice 2, and you present it NOW also:

Choice 2: You tell her to leave. Get out. This is the consequence of a refusal to do what YOU need her to do. If she won't leave, you pack a bag for her, put it in her car, call a locksmith, and send her on her way. And just so she knows you're serious about Choice 1, you also return to your attorney, and have him immediately file for dissolution, so you are the petitioner, and have him get a custody order so you have full time custody of your kids.

If she chooses to go, well, then let her be with the OM for a while. See how life is without you. Let her family really give her the cold shoulder and see how she likes it.

Your post at the top of this page complained that you didn't know any longer what the "plan" is. You asked, "What is the plan here?"

Understand, no one has YOUR plan. That's why it's YOUR plan. You need to have a plan, and sure, it's fine to ask what others would do, and it's also fine that others offer their own advice or convey what they would do if presented with your situation. But none of us really knows your W, none of us really has lived a day in your skin, and none of us can really devise YOUR plan for YOUR marriage.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I have seen you take some good steps (exposing, telling her family), only to see you shrink back from any real conflict which would communicate clearly to YOUR W what it is you need and demand from YOUR marriage.

If she can't or won't see things the same way, maybe it's time to start thinking of what you need and where and how you'll ultimately go about getting what you need. If she needs something different than you, or is content to muddle along, all the while threatening divorce or separation, well, it's time to make the decision for her.

Believe me, in the end, she'll respect you for making a decision, any decision, and you will also respect yourself a lot more for standing up for what you believe in.

Your old M is gone. You won't get that back. Again, sorry to be so blunt, but all of us who have had to deal with the pain and anguish of infidelity ultimately come to the same realization; it just takes some of us longer to get there than others. Those who can successfully reconcile, realize that it's not their old M that they have, but an entirely new one, a better one. If that is possible for you, that will be great and a blessing in your life. If it's not, then you need to come to grips with the fact that one partner can't make a marriage work alone.


That's what's next.

Oh, and by the way, about the subject of getting equity out of your home, she might not be able to sell it, but believe me, as someone who has practiced in the real property field as an attorney for 25+ years, there are other, much more immediate ways to drain the equity from your home, including simply taking out an equity home line of credit and then immediately draining it by drawing the line down. And if you think that banks won't give her an equity line by herself, think again, because most banks don't really care which spouse sends in the application for an equity line, and if your spouse is like many others who cheat, she probably won't feel any twinges of conscience either about signing your name to such an application or getting a crooked notary to notarize a forged signature on a deed of trust. Which is why if there's going to be any legal filings done, you really ought to do it first, so you can record a "lis pendens" (notice of pending action), which will put all third parties, including prospective lenders and purchasers, on notice that divorce proceedings are pending. If a lis pendens is recorded, no lender will ever loan on jointly owned property until the lis pendens is withdrawn.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on so much, and really, I know it's none of my business, but IMHO, it's time for you to make a more definitive move. And if your WW just doesn't understand, perhaps she needs some time away from you and your kids to realize what she'll be missing.

Wow, I was posting mine at the same time Owl was posting the same sentiment. Crossed in the mails.

I guess that means there's two votes for this point of view. Not that this really matters. Just highly coincidental and ironic.

I think both Owl and RJ made good points.

HTW,

What do you think?

RJ,

What's your story?

Hope, if she does want to do that, then its probably time to visit a lawyer and get her removed, I am sad to say. I agree that you can't continue to live like that. Nor can your children thrive in such a toxic atmosphere. Hopefully, she has enough sanity left to realize she can't subject her family to this any longer. If not, then your first order of business is to protect yourself and the kids from her destructiveness.

Hope, how about this. Your inlaws are supportive. Ask them if they will suppport you in providing your wife a place to stay if you tell her she needs to leave the house until she makes a choice between you and the OM. If they say yes, them them you are going to tell her that she needs to make a choice and if she says she can't you are going to ask her to leave without the kids to go stay with them. Hopefully they will help you out. Then when you force her hand she can't back down knowing you have the inlaws support.

HTW

I have followed your posts for a several weeks and even given you my opinion. I have to agree with Owl, Rejected, Mel, UVA. You have to give her the ultimatum. She cannot continue to eat cake in front of you and the kids.

Follow the advice of Owl. Clearly state only 2 choices. If she refuses to make a choice then pack her stuff and lock the door. With new keys of course. Follow rejected111's advice and see your attorney.

My situation is nowhere near what yours is at the moment, but I can tell you this. If I see a significant reversal of behavior I am doing the same thing. As a matter of fact, I am not going to put up with the neutral position I am in much longer. One day in the not too distant future I may give mine an ultimatum.

Go for it and realize, you can live without her. It is all her choice, but you have to know you can go on with or without her. You call the terms. Not her.

HTW:

I did the same thing as you people just described. I packed every stitch of closing that my wife owned and told her to get out of the house and that I was done. She went to the OM's house that night and said she was appauled to see how much a slob he was. She came back the next day and she was shocked at what she saw. Our entire LR was full of garbage bags stuffed with all her clothes. She knew she needed to get her own apartment and the next day she put down a deposit on one. I convinced her not to sign the lease and to try again in our marriage. She agreed to try again, quit seeing the OM, and said she would stay home.

Everyday, I would ask her if she talked to the OM at work and she would say she was avoiding him completely. I felt like we were making some progress. I think a week or so later, we had a MC session and the OM showed up in the parking lot. She not only continued to talk to him at work but she told him the time, place, and the name of the MC.

This incident gave me some strength that I didn't previously have and that was the strength to completely let her go. I was completely at the end of my rope like is being described on this thread and I told my wife in front of the MC that I was tire of her daily lies, I was done with her, and that I was falling completely out of love for her. I told my wife she was at a Y in the road of her life. I told her the roads do not parallel and they will never meet again. I told my wife if she chooses the road to the OM, she will always be considered an adulterer with no way to redeem herself. I told her if she chooses the road back to the family, she can redeem herself. I said either way, you must choose today. I told her I will quit fighting for the marriage as of that day, it is either the OM or her family. I then said if your choice is the OM, I was going to her workplace in the morning and I was exposing the affair to their bosses, personnel, and her co-workers. I then told her I would leave there and go to her elderly mother's house and tell her. I said I will then call every family member on her side and expose and humiliate her wonderful do-gooder Christian way to everyone.

Our MC time was up and we left without my FWW making a decision, but it was that ultimadum, followed up with those threats of more exposure, that caused her to call me on my cell phone five minutes after we left and she said, "I will quit my job tomorrow and end the affair." She did what she said and gave her two weeks notice and quit. On the last day of her job, painful WD began but that was the beginning of our Recovery.

I think you do reach a time that an ultimadum is necessary and it will end the daily abuse to the BS, one way or the other.

TooSoon

Let me just say that this is the POST OF THE DAY.......and the stone cold truth.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

HTW, I think you have been given all the support and best advice possible, with this post by RJ111 as the culmination for you. You know what to do, you have been given the keys....open the door for your new life (of self recovery and taking back your dignity) or continue to be mired in this he** you undoubtedly live in.....but DON'T COMPLAIN about it, as you have been given the way to a better life....you remain where you are as a result of YOUR WON DOING and INACTION.

Not much else to say to you.

Goodluck....you will need it if you are to stay on this present "dead-end" course.


Lem

Good luck and Gods Speed HTW. We are pulling for you.

OMG...

These posts were so hard to read because I know that I have had the hardest time imposing limits on my H about the A. I have been so afraid of losing my M that I didn't realize my M is dead and gone. If a new M is to be born from this then I have to develop a backbone and state me limits that he can choose to respect or not.

God, I hope that I can be strong enough to follow the advice that you all have given HTW. I will pray for it as I pray for HTW to find the end of his nightmare.

My H's A appears to be over but the NC has to stay in effect or my H will have to hear my own ultimatum. I also need to not be afraid if he finds me snooping on him and explain that the loss of trust is on him and his behavior. That when he has shown me, over time, that he is trust worthy, then the snooping will stop.

Sry to threadjack. The advice given was so awesome and I couldn't help but take it to heart and kick myself in the butt for not growing a backbone with my H.

Loni

Good luck to you too Loni and Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

Thanks TSTBC

loni

Hope,

Man I loved reading those posts. I agree 100%, I just wish I could be so eloquent and a bit less crass. I did the plan A for 4 months as well, it was all I could stand. If FWW ever contacts the OM again she's out.

Tell her to make the choice, not "Will you make the choice now?" but "You must make the choice now." Don't give her any time to think about it or run for "closure" and see how she responds to the new, in control, you!

You've been such a good guy and tried your best to do everything the right way- your WW should see that and respond but she's too darned crazy.

I also think the MC you saw is an idiot and didn't do you any favors.

Hang on to your inlaws- they are quality people all the way around and no doubt knowing them will benefit your kids regardless of what your wife does.

Your tone sounds encouraging, screw plan B and tell her what's what. If she's that insane you really don't want her around anyway do you?

I was reading Torn Asunder a bit this morning and the author does not believe in allowing the affair to run its course. He believes in forcing the WS to make a choice, the Lover or the spouse. He said the problem with the BS allowing the affair to continue, it sets the stage for your WS to become a cake-eater and the WS gets used to getting the best of both worlds. Why should they choose when they can have it all?

It is interesting to pick up the book today being in a decent stage of recovery versus reading it during my high point of despair. It seems so much clearer to me today than before. It is pointed out, the WS must be distanced from the lover for the marriage to have a real or any chance to recover because the lover and the WS cannot do it on their own.

TooSoon

Hope....how are you doing? I again encourage you to take keed to the advice given here. I have been there my friend and although I keep saying it was "her divorce" I went and "cleaned up" some old e-mails (yes saved from over 3 years)...and I saw myself out of patience with her. I could not take it any more. Now, be aware, I was unaware of her long ended PA at the time but I assumed that her EA, which I thought was harmless (long before I found this site and myself!)..might have had something to do with her insistance on a divorce but we really did not like each other. It seems I forgot my part! However, I was willing to work on us..on me...and I did...through the divorce...through other relationships....

Hope...I remember reading your beginning posts...and thinking "this guy is me"....keep your chin up...and let us know how you're doing. What ever you decide to do, as long as you're not kidding yourself, will be supported here....I assure you that if my XW wavered becuase she was in a PA...she would have found her crap all over the front lawn....exposure would have been easy asher parents drive by the house 10 x a day...

SMOMW:

Are you remarrying your XW, is that what I am reading? If so, are you nervous due to the marriage history and her pattern?

TS