HTW-

I agree with what a lot of the people here have said. She's got you brow-beaten, and she knows it. She gets her way by manipulating your emotions, and she's become an expert at at.

I hope that you recognize sometime soon that NOTHING will change in your current situation unless YOU change it. She's not going to leave (because she's got no where to go, and she doesn't want to lose her family), she's not going to end contact with OM (because there really is nothing forcing her to do so), she's not going to start working on the marriage (because right now the truth is she doesn't want to...she's really getting all the attention from you that she's craved before, AND she's capable of getting it from anyone else without any true repercussions). She's not going to start on the D because she knows she's not positioned in any way to win or get what she wants out of it.

So the REAL question is how long are you going to accept living like this? You complain that it's got you worn down, but in truth all she's got to do is give you one little glimmer of hope that if you do things her way she'll come back to you, and you're all set to keep up EXACTLY what you're doing.

It's something of a 2x4, but I really just don't understand your motivations here.

At this point, I'd expect the 'status quo' to remain for quite some time...many months at least. It's not going to change any time soon...not even after Christmas, because she'll continue to find reasons for not making anything happen then either.

What was that definition for insanity again?.....

Having her family responding so negatively to the A is EXCELLENT news. WW will try to spin them to her side, and possibly could over time...

Doyou have a copy of Surviving an Affair? Can you get a copy? Let your ILs borrow it, so you can let them know that by you asking her to leave is NOT giving up on the R, but giving up on your place in the triangle.

I agree with Owl, she has you wrapped around her little finger, and there is no motivation for her to change...she has you at home, being loving and generous, and the OM for her excitement...the best of both worlds, why would she want to change this? Why would she want to move out?

confused, how is your situation currently? I was looking for an update from one of your threads but didn't find any.

I know you said you WH A was over, but has he started to reconnect with you?

Owl, as to how long I can accept living like this. I don't know, but I don't see it going much longer, especially if I find continued contact.

Slowly, I'm starting to feel better about myself. My appetite has come back and although I haven't regained my original weight, it has increaed. I'm sleeping better at night, although I still occasionally wake up between 4 and 5. Last night was the first time in a very long time that I slept right throuhg the night without waking once.

I stopped playing hockey since this all started. Tomorrow night will be my first game and I'm excited. So I'm making changed and have regained some of my crushed self esteem.

Right before D-day #2 I was having dreams about my WW and OM together. About a week later I discoverd they were having a PA. I'm no longer having those dreams.

I am starting to realize that no matter how this turns out that I will be fine.

SHMI,

I am stuggling with this concept because my WW has let it be known that she wants to seperate and that she will want to do so after the holidays.

So if she is happy having some of her needs met by me and others by the OM, why does she want to leave?

I would think if she was truly on the fence she would not persue leaving so much.

I'm curious at to what others think as well..

[color:"green"]$$$$[/color] She is trying to figure out how to deal with the money aspect of leaving, that is why she has not left yet. So for now she has ENs of support family support and financial support on one side and on the OM side she is finding whatever ENs she "thinks" she doesn't have.

Once she has a plan about the money aspect, expect her to come at you Hope. It's why she would talking to the lawyers, it's why she is waiting, so she can build up some cash reserve. Or maybe she is hoping the OM can come through. Or maybe there will be a bonus or IRS check to count on. She is developing a plan or she wouldn't have a time frame.

Hope,

Unbelievable, but we STILL are in the exact situation. My wife is looking for an apartment in our town, and has stated that she wants out by Jan. 1st. She wants a LS, done by no lawyers, but what she is negotiating, is quite a bit below what I would expect to get if I filed. We, for now, have agreed to have no child custody hearings, just split time for the kids and no child support either way. 99.9% sure she has been seeing OM all along. Found 2 pair of "lovely" laced underwear in her overnight bag when she went for an overnight visit to her sister's (near OM) after our long trip to Disney World. She never wears those kind of underwear!!! Usually just women's breifs!!

God bless your stamina!! I'm just about spent. Our financial situation was fine with us both together, but if seperated, we will either both "just get by" or someone is going to get the shaft. In either case the kids will suffer unbelievably!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps she does have an escape plan...I could be wrong. But honestly, it sounds to me like she's picking a future date out of the air, and that seems to be a very likely target...you'll see all kinds of people putting things on hold until after Christmas this time of year.

Still it seems to me that you'd best just expect things to stay exactly like they are until YOU make the change...at least between now and Christmas. I will say that it IS possible that at some point she'll do something to make changes in the situation...but HTW, do you REALLY think she's going to make ANY changes in this situation on her own that will result in something better for you and your family????

Again, I think you need to start taking ACTION. See, you've heard it said that actions speak louder than words. So...look at your wife's words (gonna leave after Christmas, wanna seperate, etc...) and then look at her words (realized she doesn't have a chance on her own, etc...NOT GOING ANYWHERE or changing any behavriors at all). Now...look at your words (I love you, I'll do whatever I have to for our marriage, our family, etc...) and then your actions (real exposure took place late...did make changes in yourself to improve marriage, but have truly done little to allow your wife to face responsibility for her actions, allowing wife to continue in same vein for MONTHS hoping on a change, etc...).

You've done a great plan A, and your wife has seen a lot of it (oh yeah, change NOW will you!?)...but hasn't responded to it appropriately. You NEED to start planning a good plan B...because she's going to stay right where she's at until something motivates her to change.

Owl, I have already prepared my Plan B letter and will post it below for you and others to reivew. Mel, has already given her approval of it.

I want to consult with SH one more time before I go to Plan B just to get his professional opinion. I will not do an in house Plan B so I first need my WW to leave and then I can go to Plan B.

I know she is planning her escape since I have seen a list of assests that she would like and some notes she took from talking to a lawyer (nothing specific just the law as it applies). However the choice to leave will have to be completely hers. I will not take part in a LS unless she initiates of course.

For those who have not yet read my Plan B letter here it is..



Dear WW,

Although I have ALWAYS loved you with my heart and soul, I made you feel that EVERYTHING was more important to me than you. It never was the case, but that is how I made you feel and for that I am sorry. I have recognized those errors in judgment and have learned from them. I still believe we can have a happy, loving, fulfilling marriage. Think of how happy our family would be if our kids had parents who are in love with each other.

I've suffered tremendous pain from seeing our marriage falling apart and learning about your relationship with <OM>, but I never stopped loving you and I never forgot what a wonderful person you are and how much joy you brought me and our family. That gave me the strength and hope to go on. But the pain has became too much to bear and I cannot continue to live the way we are, so I had no choice but to separate for my own emotional well being. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at reconciliation. If we continue as we are now, there would be nothing left.

I do not want this separation, I want to be your husband. As much as I want this, you have made it clear that you don't, and as long as you feel this way, I cannot be a part of your life except as the father of your kids, it is simply too painful. As always, I will continue to be the best father I can be and do whatever is necessary to insure our kids’ happiness and make their life as fulfilling as possible. Please do not contact me except in an emergency. For urgent matters, contact your sister and have her pass on the message.

I love you WW. You will always be very special to me. You are the only person I have allowed myself to love so deeply. I look back through our life and I choose now to only remember the good times and learn from the bad. I forgive whatever pain you have caused and hope that in time you will forgive me too. I just cannot be with you or see you while you still may be involved with another man and feel the need to have a separate life without me.

If, down the road, you have a change of heart and decide you want to give our marriage a chance, I am open to discussing it with you and working out a plan to restore our marriage and make it what we only dreamed it could be, but I will need to know you are committed to our marriage and assurance that <OM> is no longer a part of your life. I still love you, and as I said before, I believe in our marriage and I am willing to do whatever ever is necessary, but until that time, please respect my wishes.

All my love,
<H>

Hope: I have read these type of letters over and over and they not only all sound the same, but I question how they really work. If she leaves and settles in with the OM, I think it will be hard for you to take her back...period.

I think a simple letter that says if she leaves, you will give her the fight of her life to take away the kids due to her being an unfit mother with her paying child support will have a lot more impact.

I am just not crazy about telling a ws to go screw your lover till you tire of each other and then I will take you back when you are done. I know this is not the MB way, but I believe in the carrot and the stick or the pain and the pleasure concept. Tony Robbins absolutely believes that people only change when their actions cause more PAIN than pleasure. You need to ad some pain to her romance and her life.

I know I am going to take some hits on this one, but you are losing your wife and it requires a more radical approach. She has even negotiated your settlement for you. Get a mean SOB lawyer and make her pay for her selfish actions or lose your wife.

TS

toosoontobecomfortable.....

No bashing by me.....

I too feel that these letters need to have some tough love in them.....but I am no expert.....I like the letter but I don't like the beginning of the last paragraph...

If, down the road, you have a change of heart and decide you want to give our marriage a chance,

I would change it. We know that Plan A has the carrot and stick....the stick being 'end of contact with OP'....and I like the stick part of Plan A. I understand that we want something different for Plan B.....but what is the stick of part B.....that the BS has NC with the WS? (I am serious in asking this question.....I think others might be asking it as well).....

I would change that sentence...."When you are ready to give our M a chance...." and I do think somewhere I saw a letter that made it clear that the BS would not wait forever.....I don't see that here......is that something that should be included?

Just throwing my 2cents in for the sake of discussion....even though I have no experties.....

All the best to you "hopethiswork"...I really hope it works for you.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

THIS WAS THE POST OF THE DAY.........NOTHING THAT I SAY COULD IMPROVE ON THIS.....BRAVO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If you ASKME I think the lemonman done put the slam bam thank you mam on that one.

Lem,
I knew you would be here shortly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.....

I am questioning the Plan B letter as well....I think if I gave it to my H he would be happy to just walk away.....and it sounds to me like many of the WS here would do the same....

I recall the post by Dazed... and how his wife had somewhat of a reality hit her when she realized that she would not be able to have even 50-50 custody of her daughter. To me it appeared that she was happy to go back to no action because action by Dazed was going to cause her pain.....

I am not saying Dazed should just threaten D....but there is something here about WS facing reality....look at hurting's H...he does not like the reality either......

Just food for thought. A tough Plan B letter....hmmmmmmmmm
Daisy


edited for spelling.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mortarman believes in Plan B and promotes it as a bit of a punishment, although Dr. Harley says it is high risk because the WS gets used to living without the aid or need of the BS. I hope I am not confusing posters but I beieve mortarman got his WW back by winning custody of his kids and his WW did not want to lose her kids. Plan B was not the tool, it was the Pain of losing the kids was greater than the pleasure of the OM. (Tony Robbins Teaching 101)

My wife feared the pain of more exposure and gave up the pleasure of her OM. (The stick and the carrot again).

How many of our WS's cared when we couldn't sleep at night, when we were losing massive amount of weight, when we were on meds, when we were crying our eyes out, when we pleaded to come back to their families? None of them are bothered during the fog. Bring reality and pain to the affair and you can break the affair.

Plan B is for those who will accept their spouses back no matter what they do. My FWW was actually going to sign a six months lease since I told her these affairs end in about six months. She was planning her return if she got dumped by her OM. I wasn't going to let her come back if she left anyway.

Bring pain, humiliation, embarrassment, and loss to the WS and you then have a chance of breaking thru their fog to help them see the light.

TooSoon

Interesting hypothesis TooSoon. I wonder how we can test it. Maybe we can examine some of the cases here and see what causal connections held constant during those cases. I will have to ponder some more on this.

P.s. the hypothesis I am thinking of is not the Tony Robbins' view, since most of us accept it, but whether Plan B really works...at times...to bring the WS's back.

UVA:

The case is made by the promoters of Plan B that once the BS cuts off the WS completely, it puts the entire burden on the OP to fill all the EN of the WS. It also penalizes the WS and they are not able to have the familiarity of the family as they knew before Plan B.

Plan B is the final last ditch hope and effort before Divorce. If your WS is laying in bed with his or her lover, they are getting what they might have been looking for. Mature love is hard to compete with new, fresh, exciting, puppy-like, & euphoric love called fog. I took the position to try and keep my FWW in the house against her will. I would call it simple black-mail. If you leave, I will ruin your reputation by more expsoure, etc. At that point, I didn't feel like I had anything to lose. The threat of the Pain I was going to bring to her exceeded the pleasure she was getting. It is not that easy though, we went through several months of some exposure, MC, and he77 prior to the ultamadum of threatened Pain. It did work though. It took many months after that for WD and 6 more months for her to feel some like for me. The remorse and the falling back in love came later.

TooSoon

Since I think clear and concise communication is better than muddled letters with mixed messages, I've taken the liberty of further editing your "Plan B" letter.
***********************
Dear WW,

I have always loved you, and I still do. It is my hope that we can still have a happy and fulfilling marriage. But as you know, over the past months our marriage has suffered tremendously, due to issues of lack of trust and infidelity. During this time, you've been either unwilling or unable to commit to our marriage 100%. This is no longer acceptable to me.

As a result, I think we have no other choice but to establish a period of "no contact" between us, at least until you are ready to commit to our marriage completely. I intend to remain at home with the kids, and I will care for them as I always have. I expect you to move out and find a place to live. I will do everything I can to reasonably assist you in any way I can, but please understand, I cannot and will not tolerate a situation where you are involved with someone else, whether you are living at home or elsewhere. It is not fair to me or to our children.

You know what type of life I want for us and for our children. When you are ready to commit yourself to our marriage and our family, and work on achieving that life, you may then contact me. Until then, please respect my wishes and do not attempt to contact me.

All my love,

<H>

******************************

By the way, I would scrupulously avoid using the words "separation" at all. Even though this may have the same legal effect, in some states, when two spouses have the mere intention of residing separate and apart, it amounts to a legal separation. In states which follow community property (e.g., California and a bunch of other western states), a separation (whether legally declared or merely informal) has the effect of making one spouse's earnings, accumulations and the like earned or acquired after such a "separation" separate, rather than community property. So, from a purely legal point of view, you probably want to avoid calling this a "separation" even though that's really, in essence, what it is.

Hope...

"what kinds of changes did you make that your WW noticed and what made her re-engage with you and ultimately put you on the path to re-marry?"

the changes I made were long term. First I was no longer an angry man. That was all she knew, I was angry my whole life and especially angry when she forced me to leave my home and divorce. Second, was I had begun dating. She was angry about it. that's right angry. I did not get it. Nonetheless I treated her like I treat all people, nicely. However this was after I did my modified Plan B. That's right. I would not talk to her about ANYTHING other than my boys. At one point I slipped up and gave her crap about her office PA she was involved in because I overheard people from her office making fun of her and I truly did not understand how she could "crap where she eats"...Then I decided that was me being "honest"...so when my calendar came up to 8 months of no contact (except for my slip up)...I just started being nice to her, like I was to everyone else. She tried talking to me about me but I would not go for it. At one point she gave me a hard time about "being so happy"...and I told her I did not understand why she was not ecstatic, she got everything she wanted...divorce, single, boys, house, etc...me I told her I accepted where I was living (I moved from my home area to live here, after 18 years she was tossing me back with no family here)...and I accepted what I was. After a couple of months she asked me not to show up playing "happy music" when I picked up boys every morning "looking fantastic as I get frumpy"...she was not happy and was angry at me. I was used to it and told her "I do not accept your anger XW, reality is I am getting by as best I can, reality also is that my statement over a year ago stands"...that was "it's always on the table".....

so my changes were that I knew myself, recognized the errors of my past, I did not play games, I was sincere and had gained her trust. It was after much pain...and then...after only a few days of wondering if we could make it work...D-day #1.....and here I am..

So...I say...I took care of me....and that is where you are...know your weaknesses and address her concerns with you, learn from them AWAY from her madness. Then the long road back can start getting walked down....

Hope this helps.... drop me a note at coombse AT GMAIL>com...I can tell you many things...some good, some not so good...feel free...

She is pursuing leaving?? SINCE WHEN?? I don't see her pursuing leaving at all. In fact, I see her saying - just yesterday - that she refused to move! So when will she be moving since she is "pursuing leaving?"


I am curious about what has happened that has ever led you to believe she was "pursuing leaving."

TS, Plan B does not penalize the WS, but allows them to experience the consequences of their decisions. It is not "penalizing" a WS for the BS to remove oneself from a love triangle. And I do think it is fairly effective, Dr Harley has one of the most effective programs in the US and I would put his track record up against yours any day.

I don't like the idea of blackmail and threats as you suggest. I believe that forewarned is forearmed. I can't count the times I have seen a WS pre-empt a BS's exposure effectively neutralizing that weapon. I believe that a BS should not make threats, but should simply take strategic acts to bust up the affair. Many marriages do recover after Plan B, so I would hardly say that a marriage is unrecoverable after Plan B. It most certainly is not.

Neither would MortarMan claim that Plan B was not the plan that brought back his wife. Sure, getting custody hurt his wife, but she did not come back after that. Instead, she came back many months after a very effective Plan B. I have never heard him say that getting custody was the key instead of Plan B. In fact, he is an ardent supporter of Plan B since it saved his marriage. And so is Dr Harley, who has years of professional experience in this.

Hopethisworks, although you will recieve advice contradicting tried and true Marriage Builders principles, please remember who is the professional here and who has the track record. Let Steve Harley guide your actions.