I just spent 30 minutes preparing a response but I lost it. Here is what Dr. Harley says about Plan B:

"The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."

I want to address the other parts of your post but I am watching the Colts Game.

TooSoon

TooSoon, did you forget the first sentence in that paragraph that you posted from Harley?

"While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. "

And let's recall that Dr. Harley routinely recommends Plan B as a way to restore the marriage. He is the professional. He knows the risks, but still claims that he has seen "remarkable success." Sure, it is not without its risks, [nothing is] and he lays these out. But he does his best to minimize those risks, and as he says: " I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B..."

He goes onto say:

"In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating. "

more on Plan B:

"But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.

Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder." "

Entire article: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

duplicate post

Melody:

I will try once again to defend my position. Let me state to you that I never did Plan B in my case but I was planning on filing for divorce if my left the house to be with her OM. My position is based on that premise, which may differ from those who will allow their WS to have their SF for as long as they want with the lover than openly accept them back when they are done.



Mortarman has become a bit know as an expert on Plan B. He clearly points out Plan B to be a shift of control and a form of punishment to the WS. The WS does not receive any benefits from the BS like they are used to so the WS feels penalized by the loss.


I don't have a MC track record, I simply lived an experience and have read much about affairs on this and other threads. I believe in the MB concept but MB does not produce 100% positive results.



Blackmail, scaring, forewarned, threat of loss of the kids, etc. ....what's the difference? It is all about stopping the actions of a WS and disrupting the affair and giving the WS the opportunity to fall out of love with their lover and back in love with their spouse.



I didn't say that a marriage is unrecoverable after an affair, mine did but not because of my refusal to communicate with her.




But as Dr. Harley points out, Plan B was not usually the tool that brought the WS back to the BS. It was the tool that would allow the BS to menatally allow the return of the WS who may have just got dumped by their lover.



Plan B had no affect on Mortaman's WS. She was happy as a lark with her lover at the time. Plan B was implemented prior to the divorce but it was the time of the divorce that he was awarded custody of the kids. Two weeks later his WS came back. Plan B allowed the preservation of the love for him to take her back.



Do not throw away a person who implemented MB and who stairstepped the pain to the WS by the use of expsoure. The threat of more exposure was designed to bring more pain and reality to my FWW's life. It was blackmail, threat, scare tactics, designed to humiliate, and embarrass my WS. She did not want that on her shoulders to her co-workers and parents. She chose to come back to me, the one she didn't love and walk away from the one she loved, the OM.

All of this allowed for her to stop contact, fall out of love with the lover, and back in love with me. Further, I was in so much pain, she wanted to be away from me, her own form of Plan B so I was out of her sight to eliminate any guilt she might have inside.

TooSoon

I want to talk more about this later but I must leave for work. Thanks for listening.

TS, I would assert again that removing oneself from a triangle is not "punishment," and can't be defended as such. Of course the WS feels "penalized" if they are forced to face the consequences of their behavior, that is good. That is what wakes them up. Also, you keep using Mortarman as an example, however, he does not agree with your stance on Plan B. He highly recommends Plan B.


Blackmail and threats completely miss the point of exposure. Exposure is effective because it forces the WS to see themselves through the eyes of others when asked to explain their sleazy behavior. This is ruinous to the fantasy that undergirds the affair. Just making a threat or blackmailing negates that benefit and allows the fantasy to continue unimpeded. So if blackmail scares them into stopping, it does nothing to effect the fantasy bubble, only scares them underground.

Making threats is a tactic I have seen blow up in the face of many BS, because forewarned is forearmed. It is not uncommon that a clever WS, when forwarned, gets to the target and spins the story out of all recognition. This pre-emption renders exposure useless when the target believes that the BS is a jealous nut.


Of course it doesn't produce 100% positive results, nothing does. But neither does your approach of blackmail and threats. I have seen many negative results on this forum from such tactics.

Again I would point out that you are using the inherent risks of Plan B as a reason to avoid Plan B, however, Dr. Harley, the professional, does not. Nothing is without risk, however, he still recommends Plan B with great success.

I realize that you did not ever go into Plan B, however, he has counseled many couples successfully and has long term experience in its use. You don't. You use Harley's words about the risks of Plan B to recommend against Plan B, but then ignore his next words that actually recommend it.

I am not dismissing your experience, TS, but you are dismissing Dr. Harley's long term experience and expertise that you don't possess. Surely you can recognize that Dr. Harley not only has the experience, but the expertise. He has helped many, you have helped only yourself.

Hopethisworks, I know you don't need a debate on your thread about Marriage Builder's principles and I apologize for that. But I would strongly advise that you not take my word or TooSoon's word, but the word of the pro, S Harley. Speak to him before you make any move.

I'd like to suggest that Meloday and TooSoon start a new thread to discuss this...interesting information, and I'll be glad to follow it, but this thread is dedicated to helping out HTW.

HTW- Hope things are going well for you. I think that ML did ask some good questions as to what your wife was REALLY doing...from your posts, it appears to a few of us that she's not consistent in her desire to leave, nor has she truly formed a plan for doing so.

Here is my .02 worth.....

These are the types of issues I am dealing with right now so it is great to read this debate. Mel, you are not thread jacking at all since I am finding this insight very useful.

Each time I talk to Steve he suggests that the A is a secondary issue and that I should try to slowly chip away at my WW emotional wall. I don't think he would ever recommend tough love. That is one of the reasons why I find it difficult to impliment tough love.

The one thing my WW says she misses by not seeing OM is his "kindness". If I start being a tough [censored] to her it may just reaffirm her belief that I have not changed.

When asked by our MC what my WW liked about me when we married she replied:

1. Kind
2. Seemed interested in me
3. Hard worker

Mel, I plan on talking with Steve before I go into Plan B. I get a funny feeling Steve will advise me to continue Plan A while seperated and here is why.

Based on what I know, I don't think my WW will shack up with the OM. She will either find her own place or live with her parents. The reason I say this is becuase she has made it very, very clear to her family that there no longer is OM. They have told her they will abandon her if they find out OM is actually still in picture. If she looses her family she will have nothing.

That doesn't mean she will not still see OM, but I don't think she will move in with him.

TS, you said your WW had to get away from you becuase of the pain you exhibited. I feel my WW is the same way. Although I try not to show it I am in deep pain that has manifested itself in weight loss, anxiety and lowered self esteem. I'm trying to put on a strong front for my WW but she can see through it.

Rejected111, your Plan B letter assumes that my WW will move out and leave the kids behind. She will not go for this and I won't do an in-house Plan B. The only way she can get access to the kids and assets would be through a LS. She has given me every indication that she will do this, but we will have to wait and see if she goes through with it. The one thing I know for abosolute certanity is that she will not leave the house without at least partial custody of the kids.

Yesterday evening I was having fun and playing with my kids when my WW came in the room after cleaning up in the kitchen. My DD told my WW to "leave us alone" because she was having fun playing with me and my DS. After hearing this I told my DD that it wasn't a nice thing to say to mommy. My WW immediately said "no it's ok, don't blame her since you promote this".

That comment from her really made me upset. How am I promoting what my DD says by having fun and playing with them. I'm sure she felt hurt by what my DD said, but was it my fault? Should I have asked my WW to join in and play with us?

I can't believe the crap a BS has to put up with sometimes.

Sendme, your story sounds intriguing to me and you also sound alot like me. I had anger issues as well but they weren't displayed as AO, but as passive agressive behaviours. That has been one of my biggest changes so far. I used to get upset and withdrawl from my WW when she seemed to always put her job ahead of her family or when she would make DJ towards me.

If she had made that comment yesterday prior to all this, I would have withdrawn from her and displayed some passive aggressive behviour. It did upset me, but I realized it was coming from a WS and didn't let it provoke me.

I would also get frustrated with my kids when my W would treat me poorly. I no longer do that. I understand that they are not the cause of my frustration and don't deserve that.

So I have made plenty of changes but I don't think my WW cares.

Owl, my WW wants to wait until after the holidays to discuss the seperation. I told her to leave now if that was her true intention since I can no longer handle the disrespect and pain.

She said she would go without half the assets and shared custody of the kids. So that is where we stand right now.

Our R-talk last week was very draining on both of us and I haven't discussed the situation with her since.

SHMI, thanks for the comments, espcially the part about how I made her feel.

Hope, the reason that I want you to talk to SH is because he knows your case better than any of us and he is the professional here. Plan B is not tough love, though, and has nothing to do with whether or not she lives with the OM. That is unrelated. He may very well advice you to stay in Plan A for the reasons you gave, though. When will you be talking to him?

Also, Hope, could you answer my last question? Why are you saying that WW wants to seperate when she has just told you that she won't leave? This is not consistent and I am trying to understand why you keep saying she "wants to seperate," just after she has told you she won't leave.

Mel, when I was refering to "tough love" I was refering to taking a strong stance while in Plan A. Things like asking her to leave without half the assets or the kids. I also don't consider Plan B to be tough love.

The last time I spoke to him was 3-4 weeks ago to which he suggested that I continue with Plan A and deflect seperation talk by saying "I can't agree to a seperation until we have exhausted all possible solutions". That is why I'm also finding it hard to do the opposite which is asking her to leave. I plan to call him again just before the new year. He did say he would recommend a seperation if my energy level drops significantly and I find myself loosing my love for my W. But I think if I can take it he may very well suggest remaining in Plan A and if she is out of the house it will be less stressful for me...I think. Just my opinion.


Mel, she does want to seperate. However she wants to do it by spliting the assets and sharing the kids 50/50. When I told her I don't want to split the assets or the kids she said "I won't leave without the kids and where will I stay". I told her to stay with her parents to which she said "why don't you stay there".

So she wants to seperate on her conditions not mine. These are her wants:

1. 50/50 custody, although she wants to be primary residence
2. Split assets so she can buy her own place

She wants to wait until after the holidays to discuss since it is "best for the kids that we don't ruin their Christmans". Yes I know more babble!!

oh ok, I got ya. I don't consider protecting your assets as "tough love." I consider it to be counterproductive to hand her those things to help her destroy your family without any effort. That is not "tough love," that is protecting your family from her. That is your job as a man.

And I do not believe she wants to seperate at all. If she really wanted to do this, she would do it. She hasn't done it. Just remember, talk is cheap with a WW. She might be using the assets, etc as an excuse to not leave, but you don't see her taking any action to rectify that, do you? It is because it is all babble.

As I said before, I'm no expert but since I've been following this since day one I would like to put my 2 cents in.

Everyone seems to think your wife is using her emotions in this process. I don't that's an issue at all. She seems to be a person who has made up her mind that she's ready to start over. She's using a very logical process in everything she's done. She has shut you out. That didn't work so she had an affair. That didn't work so now she's moved onto the next step and talked to a lawyer, taken notes and is working towards a legal seperation which will split everything down the middle. She can start over with a clean break. She acts more like this is a business transaction.

Has she always been this way? The non-emotional businesswoman? Very stubborn and knows what she wants an goes for it? If that's true than I think trying to appeal to her emotional side like most people seem to be pushing you to do isn't going to help one bit.

I don't have any anwswers for you but this is just something that I've been wondering about her for a long time. If any of this hit home maybe you should see if anybody has other ideas like convincing her to go on a weeks vacation, just the two of you... away from the business climate and stresses.

Mel, she is making her plans in fact I have just found some floor plans and prices for new homes in her purse. She is planing it well and now I am getting fed up being Mr. nice guy. I feel like she is playing me for a fool really.

The more I think about it the more she needs to leave the house now. This is really upsetting to me.

GWTF, she is stubborn and can be non-emotional. I think yoiu have pegged her pretty good and I feel like I'm being set up by her. She is buying her time and I don't like it at all.

Hope I have been telling you she is making a plan.

And I had to add, it's why I suggested protecting yourself with a lawyers advice.

HTW:

I have to agree with you here. I think you are being played for the fool. I do NOT believe that any of this is "fog".

I do agree with ML that IF your WW was ****** bent on leaving she would have left by now, but I have a different take on it than perhaps ****some**** others. I do not believe that your WW not leaving has anything in any way, shape, or form to do with being "confused" about her love for you, or perhaps your Plan A efforts....I think she does not respect you at all, and truthfully, thinks of you as a pathetic man. I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS THE CASE (YOU BEING PATHETIC) , BUT HER ACTIONS SAY OTHERWISE.

Yes, I know that MOST everyone (including the "experts" SH and WFH) say this is not the case and this is about you previously not meeting her needs, yada yada yada...and that this is not really "her" and is all an "alien" doing these things, and an "addiction" fueling her.... but I truly believe that right now it boils down to her cowardice.

She is a coward, like all Waywards, and she doesn't have the f-ing stones to leave and set up shop....she doesn't have the stones to fight out custody, or fight out against you for assetts right now....right now, "putting up with you" is easier than leaving and really starting a War. BUT....as you stay and "stick it out" and continue on your current path (i.e NOT PLAN B), being the "nice guy" as you say....secretely dying a thousand deaths and killing yourself trying to "stick it out" she assembles her forces (i.e looking at houses, continues f-ing the OM, and without a doubt getting legal strategies lined up).

You see, right now, she has you catering to her every whim (cake eating in the buffet line), and yet I almost see you trying to convince yourself that you can "stick it out" longer, as long as SH says so.....in the end, whether or not you do this, I would have to ask you at what point you look at this with eyes wide open and stop "denying" what this is really doing to you. NOONE CAN TELL YOU WHAT THIS IS DOING TO YOU BUT YOURSELF (even if they are the "expert").

MelodyLane, you can save your breath, yes I know that SH is the "expert" and has saved 130,000,000 marriages already, and I am not saying that HTW should do differently than the advice he has paid handsomnly for, but I have watched this car crash from the street, and am really starting to worry that HTW is in "denial" about what this is doing to him. As a highly trained and experienced physician having thousand of cases under my belt, I have taken people to the Operating room based on WHAT THEY HAVE TOLD ME...Their abdominal pain was a "killer" and they just felt terrible....and you know what I found when I sliced open their abdomen fully expecting to do an appendectomy....? A nice, completely normal appendix.....ughhh. I consider myself an "expert" surgeon and yet, I can only sometimes go on what people "tell me"...and sometimes I have been wrong becasue of this......what I sometimes wonder is why noone ever brings up the fact that many Betrayed Spouses HERE simply deny their "true feelings" and LEARN to become "experts" themselves in denying their own true self damage, that they can even fool the "experts" in their hopes of getting the answers they want....surely, you would not suggest that this is NOT a possibility...?

HTW, I know that you want to save this marriage more than anything in this world, but I fear, you are just AFRAID to death of Plan B, and in your own denial, may shape the situation as to get the "expert OK" to continue on the PLAN A path, as to you, this would still keep your Cheating Wife in the house and be "easier" for you to "deal with".....perhaps this will give you more hope to "PLAN A" her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.....but as this rate, I fear that all this will do is allow your cheating wife to build up more "reserves" to eventually "nuke you".

I am not an expert on this, but F-it...I have an opinion, and I am gonna let you hear it.....for the record, I agree that you follow through with whatever you want to do, and get the "expert" call before you make your next move in one or two months......Please remember, that despite EVERYONE'S best intentions (Mine, ML, TS, SH, WFH, etc..), NONE of us has the ultimate stake you have in this.....we don't live with the decisions that you make.....I will leave you with this final pearl that I have learned from this.......YOU SHOULD MAKE A DECISION BASED ON WHAT YOU WANT.....NOT WHAT YOU DON'T WANT....

Goodluck....

Lem

Melody and Hope:

I agree this is not threadjacking and it will help Hope with his decisons. It falls within his case.

In response to Melody early post to me:



I agree that Mortaman is an expert on Plan B and he totally believes in Plan B, but what I don't agree that Plan B brought his wife back to the affair. He is a very smart guy and I have read many of his posts. He is a stratagist and good at it. He was smart enough to implement Plan B as his wife was seeing her lover. Plan B was in effect for some time but it was him winning custody that brought her back to him and the family. I can search out the post that he told me this, if you would like. I agree that he credits Plan B with winning back his wife, but I don't. I believe it was Morts ability to make a case that won the kids from his wife, which then became the affair killer. Maybe we can get him on this thread to talk about it too.



If you read back, I stated I exposed my wife to a hand full of people, some family and some not. I did this to help them put pressure on her to help her out of the fog. My FWW was lying to them and me both so it did not work. It was over two months later that I threatened to expose to everyone if she didn't stop the affair. Call the threat anything you want, but she did not want to endure the wrath of more exposure. It worked without having to further expose.

I had already exposed the affair the OM's parents so she knew that I would continue with my threat. Remember what I said. My FWW was not bothered by the damage to the family, she was not bothered by the affair, she was not bothered by the pain she brought me and the kids, she was not bothered by her private meetings, deceptions, and lies, because she was too deep in the fog. She did not want her mother, he bosses, her co-workers, and her family to find out about her dual life and that is why she walked away. She was looking for a way out of the affair and this was her only way out, humiliation or not.



If HTW says to his wife, if you move out, I am going for full custody since I can prove you to be an unfit wife, isn't that blackmail? Do you deem this as wrong or good tactics. I say good tactics if it works. If she is going to move out to be with the OM, what is the difference??!! This is a WAR!



I interpret Plan B as a way to preserve some love within the BS to be able to humbly accept their BS back when they are tired of their fling. Mort says it is a power shifter and a tool to break the affair. I am not saying Plan B is wrong for some people, I just don't see it as an affair buster, simply a love preserver. Now for the cake-eating WS's who want the best of both worlds with no intentions of leaving their BS, it may be a good tool to use because it takes away the best of both worlds. I will give you that much on Plan B beyond Dr. H's printed information.



I have never dismissed Dr. Harley's position, without him I wouldn't be married today. Please reprint the information that Dr. harley's specifically states that Plan will break the affair in the same manner as exposure.



Melody, you are promoting Plan B to Hope and you are asking he remove his wife from the house. If you keep her in the house, Hope has a better chance of staying married. If she is hellbent on leaving, sooner is better than later.

TS

My FWW stating this might have been an excuse for her to to be with the OM.

Meloedy, another word for blackmail, threats, etc. is called "Tough Love"...or productive tools.

Well said Doc!