Again, I would point out that you call Mortarman a "plan B expert" except when it contradicts your own personal opinion of Plan B. He will tell you, and so will others, that Plan B was what brought his wife back just as it was designed. It worked, so you can't deny that! He will also say that winning custody of his children - i.e., facing the consequences of her adultery - certainly put pressure on her, but it was Plan B that did the trick. She did not come back after she lost custody, but after a long Plan B which caused her affair to crumble.

Plan B is contingent on this premise as outlined in His Needs, Her Needs: the OP only meets 1-2 needs of the WS, while the BS usually meets more. If the WS is allowed to get his needs met in both places, he/she has no reason to end the affair. By going into Plan B, the WS realizes that the OP cannot possibly meet his/her needs, which is what often pulls them off the fence. This is how Plan B is effective in ending the affair.

From His Needs, Her Needs, pg 168

A separation is helpful in protecting the emotions of the betrayed spouse. But another reason a separation is helpful is that the betrayed spouse withholds the fulfillment of needs he/she performed prior to the affair. In most cases, a lover meets one or two important needs, and a spouse two or three. The wayward spouse comes to realize that the lover cannot meet needs his/her spouse had met and sometimes leads to the realization that "you can't have your cake and eat it too. A separation may also result in the opportunity for unpleasant experiences between a spouse and a lover, driving down the love bank account...

If you ask many Plan B survivors here, this is exactly how they will explain Plan B's success. Mimi's Plan B forced her H to see how shabby his OP really was. Plan B allowed MM's wife to see the same thing about her OP. This is WHY Plan B was successful.


No, I am asking that he encourage her to follow through on her stated desire to separate. Remember, this is her idea, not his. Nor do you have any rationale whatsoever to claim that he has a better chance of staying married if she stays, his marriage is headed for the dump heap right now with no end in sight. I believe that his best bet for yanking her off the fence is to be found in Plan B. Plan A is not intended to be a way of life and as it is now, she is having her needs met by two men. However, since neither you or I are the professionals here, he should defer this decision to Steve Harley.

By what standard? The correct definition of "blackmail" does not support your assertion that protecting one's assets from plunder is "blackmail." The definition of blackmail is:

Extortion of money or something else of value from a person by the threat of exposing a criminal act or discreditable information

He is not "extorting" anything. He is protecting his assets and his children, which is his obligation as a father. Whereas, your threat of "exposure" does fit the definition.

Ya know, I don't really like the "wording" of this. Steve CAN'T and SHOULDN'T make the ULTIMATE decision for HTW. He can get the "expert" , weigh the options and consequences FOR HIMSELF, and then SHOULD MAKE THE DECISION HIMSELF.

In the end, Hope has to be able to make this decision for himself. Maybe y'all think that "marriage building" is different, but Golly in medicine and every other facet of health care....the person is ultimately responsible to make the decision for his or her self. I read too often that people should just do what someone else says to do, no matter what....this isn't an attack on the experts here, but just the whole mantra that someone else should ultimately make our OWN LIFE'S DECISIONS.

SH, or other "experts" offer experienced opinions, but in the end, the person themself has to do the job and make the decision. I know I don't ever ULTIMATLEY make the decision whether a patient has surgery or not (unless in situation that they can't consent)...so Hope's situation should be no different.

Maybe we are saying the same thing, but I don't agree with or understand the rational that someone should make this decision for us...simply because they are the "expert". Hope has to be able to "man up" and make the decision for himself...whatever that may be. It is HIM and HIS children who have to live with the consequences of his actions....yes, I agree, get "expert" opinions, but I don't agree that someone LET some else make the ultimate decision....Just my .02...disagree? That is ok.

Ok, enough of this thread.....I fear I can't make anymore beneficial comments here.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LM, agree 100% with ya. The buck stops with HTW and the responsibility for his life lies completely in his own hands. I am only saying this because he IS counseling with SH right now and he doesn't know of recent developments with HTW. Even so, the decision ultimately lies with him.

p.s. I am not one of those blind followers who believes everything a "professional" says. my doctor thinks I am a b*tch because I NEVER EVER just accept what she tells me. I RESEARCH everything she tells me. In fact, I decided not to take her advice to take statin drugs to reduce my "out of control" HDL, which is 98. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Mel:

Is it your "HDL" (good cholesterol) that is 98 or your "LDL" (bad cholesterol) that is 98? If your HDL is 98, $hit...you are gonna live till your 100 with regards to Coronary Artery Disease...I have never heard of an HDL (the good cholesterol) being 98.

Now if your LDL is 98, than I can perhaps see what your MD is talking about....but technically, if you do NOT have Diabetes or have not had a previous Heart Attack, then an LDL of 98 does NOT warrant taking a Statin drug.

Geez....I am such a f-ing nerd..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem

LM, it is my HDL. My sister's is higher than that at 102! Believe me, I know the difference since I have been tracking this for years. It has been higher than a kite since I cleaned up my diet a few years ago. Even LDL of 98 is not high, the limit is now 100. My tgs are 61, down from 1800 in 1998.

Mel and the rest:

I have tried to allow for the cake-eating WS in my posts regarding Plan B. I agree with lemon, I think we are all saying a bit of the same thing and ultimately, Hope must make his own decision. My definition of cake-eaters who wants to receive the best of the EN being met by the BS and the lover. By me saying this in the earlier post means that I do accept Plan B to have a place in the system, but if you reach the point of Plan B, you better be prepared to spend a life without your existing spouse....due to the stated risks of Dr. Harley.

TS

Yep, I agree that we agree that we agree.....I think.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I truly believe that enough people DON'T understand what Plan B means (although admittedly, maybe it is me who is clueless, as I never dropped the $185/hr for counseling), and that it ultimately MAY VERY WELL MEAN that a cheater does NOT come back to the marriage.

Perhaps it is just me (not sure the exact Harley definition OTHERS believe or interpret), but if I ever did Plan B, it would NOT be as a means to get my WS back to the marriage. By this point, it would mean that I am first and foremost saving myself from the devestation and destruction of this unhealthy and dysfunctional life with an infidel. It would be just a "temporizing" measure and "cooling off" period before a divorce proceeds.

It would take EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES to come out of, and not just a "promise to do a NC letter" or some other Bull$hyytt like that, that sadly too many desperate Betrayed Spouses fall for.

I feel that FAR TOO many people who do Plan B do it with the specific intent and "expectation" that it will bring their cheater back....and NOT for the specific intent and "expectation" of "relief" and "salvation" that it should bring.

Too many BS are NOT ready to deal with the VERY REAL possibility that their WS won't come back. So they waffle, they do "modified" Plans and they play "games", they find Bullshyttt ridiculous reasons for contact no matter how miniscule...they spend countless wasted "life" hours interpreting every stupid and assinine word the Cheater says.....as if whay they SAID had any meaning <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And you know what...........? When this PREDICTABLY DOESN'T WORK....THEY STAY MIRED IN HEl*. This would NEVER work for me....But then again, that's JUST ME... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Shytt, maybe it is intended to bring the WW/WH back, but that would NOT be ***my*** primary use of it.

Too many people I think LET the Wayward back too easily, setting themselves up for a false Recovery. They are then left sad, depressed, devestated and YET still living off the Cheaters actions and still bathing in the dysfunctional world their Wayward creates. In this case, Plan B never truly does WHAT I FEEL it can do (save one self's dignity and sanity and ulitmately LIFE).

Now, I guess I just realized something about all of this. ***FOR ME***, I think the Plan B AS I INTERPRET it would be a saving grace if I was still in the trapped world of a Betrayed Spouse living with a Cheating Spouse. Saving the marriage would be the gravy, not the meal.

Maybe I am interpreting this all wrong, and not as Willard and Steve intended it..you know what? So what? It would be what works for me. It would be me getting what I need from it in a healthy and self respecting manner.

Ultimately, this is what it would be about for me, if I were to be in a Betrayed Spouses shoes again.

So, Hopethisworks....in conclusion, I only give you my opinion of Plan B based on what **I** feel would be best for **me** and how I interpret it. I don't think I can credibly give you advice otherwise, as it would be me, perhaps telling you what you want to hear...some others may see that as "support", I don't, as you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Maybe this is not helpful to you and I apologize upfront if this is the case. I believe you are a very smart man, and realize that, hence you are paying the real money to counsel with the "experts".

I hope this clears up some confusion at least from where I am coming from.

Lem

edited for clarity and spelinng <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> mistakes.

In my sitch, my then-WH was living at home at the time I decided to go to Plan B. (BTW Lem, I think Plan B is so multi-faceted, and so many things to different people, that you are no more nor less right in your interpretations than those who hope it will bring their spouses back. It is very close to one-size-fits-all. JMHO.) Anyway, it had come to the point where I had done all the nice things I could do, said all the nice things I could say, and it made no difference.

Yes, Plan A is more effective if they are still in the home, but if it doesn't work on its own, there comes a time when they must be asked to leave. Even forced to leave, if need be. Unless the BS wants to continue to be part of a harem, which I certainly didn't.

There really is a point where having a WS in the house becomes more damaging to chances of reconciliation (to say nothing of the BS' sanity), than it is helpful. Only the BS can decide what that point is for them. It takes caution and much thought to make sure Plan B comes neither too early nor too late.

But if the A does not end on its own soon enough, it must come.

This has turned out to be a very interesting thread even beyond the troubles and challenges of HTW.

When I was desperate and wanting to believe that my FWW was willing to try and work on our marriage, I soon found out that her version of working on the marriage included her keeping her relationship alive and active with the OM. I found out she was apartment and furniture shopping and was making her plans to move but playing me for a fool at the same time. Finding this out, I skipped Plan B and moved directly into Plan-F.

My version of Plan-F is defined as this: I can't take anymore pain and abuse from my WS so get the F_ _ _ out of the house and go live happily ever after with your boytoy. Sorry to be so rude but that was the real feelings I had. I simply reached my breaking point. I did not have it in me to allow my then WW to move into her little apartment to have full access to her lover and for me to then think I would ever want to take her back. I say this based on the agony leading up to this point.

My comments are not intended to belittle anyone who graciously accepted their WS back after the very same actions. I just don't think I could have done it.

TooSoon

Conversely, I don't think anyone would belittle you for deciding you have had enough. In your case, Plan B would simply remove you from any fresh pain while you proceed posthaste to Plan D.

All the best to you.

Toosoon:

If you get villified here for posting this above (perhaps portrayed as not supporting "Harley or MB principles", I will be in the Fox Hole with you getting "shelled". I agree 100% with your feelings on this, it is how I felt.

It is ok though, I think Neak above stated it best that Plan B is multifaceted....I would have probably went Plan F also, but honestly, my "breaking point" was far earlier than yours, and I would not (could not) even let it get that far.

My Plan "F" was after a second betrayal and essentially having risked my career and livelihhood to intervene in this f-ing mess created by these heathens (XW and OM). I take the full responsibility for this, but nevertheless...that was my "breaking point".

I used to feel guilty for my "breaking point" being so far above the Mendoza line as to what others have tolerated....but I am "over it" now...and it is the very same people who have the tolerable and "moveable" "breaking points" that taught me this....ironic isn't it?

This is a great thread. Hope and others are gonna learn alot from all opinions, even yours and mine.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem

everyone has different pain thresholds. we are all just doing our best with teh cards we have been dealt. everyone has their own breaking point.

Hey guys...HTW, mind if I step in way late in the battle? This is going to be a long post and I hope you dont mind the threadjack. But I want you (and others) to see something they might not be considering here.

Rather than take on individual things said above, I would rather just summarize what I see is Plan B, how it works, why it works...and what it did with my sitch.

First, the last couple of posts...all of you are actually very close to saying the same thing. I liken it to the blind men that are all touching the elephant at different places. One had the trunk, one had the tail, one had a leg. All of them had different perspectives when describing this thing that they were touching. But what they were describing was an elephant.

You guys are really describing many facets of Plan B. Let me give you my sitch in order to explain. Rather than talk a lot about plan A, let me just say that a good Plan A (without being a doormat) is essential to a good Plan B.

Okay, I have to constantly remind people that Plan B is about the BS! It is the first time in this whole mess that the BS takes COMPLETE control oer the situation. No longer subjected to the selfishness and nastiness of the WS. All decisions are now being made by the BS for the marriage and the family. The BS no longer has to treat the WS with the respect of asking that spouse to contribute, the WS' opinion....nothing. The WS gets no say at all!

Plan B is a tactical withdrawal from the battle. It is pulling into your defensive position and protecting what is left of your love, protecting what is left of the family. It begins a time of rest and reconsolidation for the BS. Plan A was a direct fight for the marriage...for ending the affair. Plan B is time to step back and lick your wounds. And at the same time, lob the nukes onto the WS and the affair.

In my sitch, I initially did Plan A for about 9 months. In that time, my wife had moved out and left the kids and I. Steve Harley had begun counseling with both of us and had stated that it wasnt good for her to go. I wasnt to tell her to go nor help her. But if she decided to leave, she could.

Of course, she wanted me to sign a separation agreement. I initially didnt want to...but did eventually (right before she left). Now, why did I do that? I did it because I got to write the separation agreement. Do you know what I put in there? I put in there that the kids stay with me, that the marriage isnt over, that we are to continue to work on the marriage AND that my wife was to not have any contact at all with the OM until a divorce was final. Later on, when we went to a pre-court hearing, her attorney argued that I had signed a separation agreement, and that I agreed to pay her money to help her support herself. Well, I did. that was a big part of the agreement! She couldnt afford to get out and be with OM with what she made. So she accepted the agreement with all of the things that were in it.

Of course, when she continued t osee the Om and I proved it, she was now out of the house, no money from me...all because she had voided the agreement by not living up to it. Shortly thereafter, after spending what money she had taken with her on a breast augmentation (yeah, I know...WSs truly do lose their brains!), my wife had to declare bankruptsy.

In the meantime, the kids and I have hunkered down in our house. I am Plan Aing when I can, still trying to get my wife to end the affair. Still trying to get her involved in family activities. but we begin to see less and less from her. Originally, I thought it was because of school and work. but some intel missions proved that while she was working more in order to pay her bills, the Om was now a lot more involved in her life.

But there was the every two to three weeks wehere my wife would come over and say she wanted to reconcile. It wouldnt last but a few days, but that let me know that my Plan A was working and that she still loved me.

After being separated for 3 months, it was now Christmas time. I had begun to get on some meds in order to handle the rollercoaster. This was a huge change for me, and allowed me to prepare for Plan B. In the meantime, my wife was getting more belligerent. She wanted me to divorce her, to give her everything. She kept trying to convince me to give up.

Sometime in mid-December, I realized she was making some movement toward possibly going to court. The OM is pressuring her to end things. My intel I had out there was telling me I needed to protect my position. I also realized that the things I needed to do next would not allow me to Plan A anymore. So, I wrote the Plan B letter...and began my withdrawal. I had my attorney draw up divorce paperwork, as it was the only way to get the initial custody that I needed to get of our three kids.

That was December 17, 2002. I really thought that my marriage was over. Three days later, my daughter had a play at her school. I fretted over how I was going to maintain my three day old Plan B with her coming. well ,I didnt have to. My wife didnt show. Instead, she was packing, heading out the next day for a 4 day trip to Florida with the OM to meet his family.

My wife later described that trip as a Buring Bush moment. Did it end the affair? Nope. It was several more weeks before she sought reconciliation. And we still had to go thru two false recoveries over a two year period before it ended for good.

Over those two years, I would continue working on her. She had moved home, but after an initial honeymoon period, she would pull back from me. We would have good moments, and then bad. I knew that the bad times, she must be back in contact with the OM. By this time, the OM had moved back to Florida (we live in Virginia). So most of the contact was via phone. But some happened when he came into town.

But, she was back home. I had stopped all legal proceedings (many yelled at me for that, saying I was blowing my awesome legal position). I just kept on mission, which frustrated my wife to no end. When we went to counseling, she just wanted to do the blame game. Which continued to prove that her continued contact was makign ti so she couldnt get into recovery.

In the summer of 2004, her father died. We went out to his funeral...and her mother moved out here to live with us. well, to live with my wife. We were scheduled to leae the house we were renting and were looking for a new place when her father died. What I didnt know was that after the funeral, her mom and her came up with a plan that when the move happened, she would move into her own place, say that we are working on things and that I should stay at my mom's house while we did so. That she would take the kids. She now was a full blown nurse, so she had money.

Well, I agreed to this situation...except for one thing. I was not going to lose my position with the courts concernign my kids. She had already abandoned me and the kids twice before. I had a rock solid legal case for custody. I wasnt about to let her take them and set up residency. So I said I would agree to this as long as we had a schedule for dating, for counseling, for family dinners, and for when everythign gets put back together. And the big thing I made happen was the four day schedule. The kids would be four days with her, then four days with me. that way, the days would rotate...and she couldnt say they were with her most of the time. As a matter of fact, she on many occasions, gave the kids to me during her time so I ended up with them far more than she did.

I documented everything, every engagement. Every time spent with them. Every time she didnt. I continued to build a case.

She moved into her place in August 2004. By October 2004, the facade was off. She had only gone to counseling twice. She only went out with me once. She never kept the schedule. A few weeks after starting this plan, I was served with divorce papers. With that, I immediately went back to Plan B and started getting my case locked down.

I knew she had tried to play me. Now I was in no contact. I still had my case for custody, but I didnt trust it. I needed more. I needed to prove that she had jsut lied and used me in order to get her fix. So, on a night where her mom had gone home to Indiana to visit, and I had the kids...I felt it was the perfect night for these two to get together, if in fact they were or were contemplating it. She had to work that night, but would be home around 11pm. So I let my Mom watch the kids, and I went on a recon mission.

Well, as my wife truend into her development, I follwoed her in. When I got to her house, I saw a strange vehicle there. I knew all of the OM's vehicles and this wasnt one of them. I thought maybe one of her nurse girlfriends had decided to come over and hang out with her. I needed to be sure. Armed with a camera, I snuck up to the vehicle. BINGO! The OM had gotten a new truck. There was his Florida plates on it. I ran around back and looked in the back window. And there they were watching TV. I stuck around long enough (by the way, I had brought a witness with me!) to watch them go upstairs and turn out the light and go to bed. In Virginia, we are a fault state. Added to that, there is no such thing as legal separtion. What I mean by that is that you are guilty of adultery if you sleep with someone before you are divorced. My wife was using her coming home before to skirt the law. Once she had come home, by law, I had forgiven her for her original adultery. But now I had her in adultery again. I had her not living up to the agreement. I was ready for court.

Of course, we went into court and I got primary physical custody of my three kids. The judge was POed at my wife for what she had done to me and the kids. How she had played me.

The next few days, my wife fell apart. I learned later that she had contacted the OM...but there was nothing he could do to help. shoot, he was partly responsible for her losing her kids.

We moved back in together in January 2005. The affair is over. The fog is gone.

Now, was it Plan B, was it Plan A, was it losing her kids? What did it? All of it did! The custody battle was a part of Plan B. It was me taking control. everytime she tried to run back to her drug, she found that her husband would not help...and would actively pursue a course that put her in tremendous pain from the loss of her husband and or her kids. I mean, over a three year period, this former SAHM had only spent less than 14 months with her kids full time. She had realized that her decision to leave, to be with the Om could not be stopped by anyone. But, that didnt mean the fantasy would become reality. She wasnt going to take the family. And I wasnt going to divorce her. Period!

Whew. And that was the cliffnote version, folks!

I did my Plan A. I did two Plan B's. I took care of protecting my kids and my family. I made sure that under not uncertain terms that I was for our marriage.

It wasnt just one thing that saved my marriage. It was all of those things. I needed Plan A. I needed exposure. I needed Plan B. And with Plan B was NC and with setting stiff boundaries, which included that i would make sure that our kids would not leave with her!

I love Plan B. I like it a lot more than Plan A. But I also know that Plan A was a very important part of my wife coming home.

The court decision wasnt the one thing that brought her home. It was just the last thing in a long battle. It was the last act of Plan B.

Hope this helps. And I will try to join in now and see what we can do for you Hope.

In His arms.

Mortarman:

Nice post........I must say, you never dissapoint.

As soon as Mel Lane called you in for a consult, I could feel the energy of you typing away at one of your posts.....

Can I ask you a question though?

After having read your great post above and realized that this was a three year ordeal for you and your children, do you feel that your marriage is "protected"? DO you feel that your WW will "never" do this again? Have your children fully recpvered from this? Do they ever talk about it to you? Do they have scars from this?

Do you still ever worry about a "relapse" with your FWW?

I know you are a Christian man and have "faith" and all of that...but you are human aren't you? Is it just me? What says you about this?

Lem

ok, color me stupid, but I am not getting the connection between "faith" in God and "faith" that his wife won't cheat again?? What does one have to do with the other?

Oh boy.....Mel, I don't know about you, but I have seen many posts of people posting things like "I have faith that God will bring her back to me", "I am going to put this in God's hands and I have faith that he will bring him back to me"........It is not so unreasonable to surmise someone might also say (after they get back together) that they have "faith" that God has brought them back together and will "protect" them from the evil again. That is what I meant.

I don't know about you, but it would be impossible for anyone to have gone through MM ordeal and NOT have relied on a higher power for support....that is what I really meant. You can color me stupid, cause I'm not sure why your panties get ruffled tonight with that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lem

ok, I better understand what you mean. I thought you meant that a faith is a faith is a faith, but you don't mean that at all. My panties in a ruffle??????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Hope...this has become quite an interesting conversation has it not?

I am with the you on the fact that your WW is hellbent on D. My xw was all business. She did the same exact thing as your WW was doing. I told her many times to get out, her response was no way, you're leaving and I will make you leave. My life was a living heII for years. We ignored each other. Then wham...I get pesented with 20 page "agreement" that my lawyer asked me "Did she write it herself, there's no way another attorney would think this would get legal counsel approval"...after 3 months of arguing over it she decided, on attorney's advice, to just go for it via divorce...

4 months after D...I get " I think I made a mistake"....she sure did....I did not want to even talk to her...I protected myself...and that is what you must do....I am with plan B folks who describe plan B as being all about you. Take her stuff and toss it out the dang door...edited for spelling

Mort:

What a long drawn out ordeal for you. That had to be tough and painful. I know what my short little ordeal was like and how it almost broke me completely, but yours was very difficult it seems. It reminds me when you have a very bad ingrown toe nail and you are limping around and complaining of pain and then you see a guy in a wheel chair with no legs!

Mort, you have been recently disscussed on this thread so your ears must have been burning. Melody and I had different opinions of your case. As I read it now, I think her and I were both correct. Thanks for the input.

TS