HTW-

I've got to agree with the advice you've already been given. No, she's NOT going to like you snooping. That's a given. But...would you care if she snooped on you? Would I care if my wife snooped on me? Does my wife care if I snoop on her NOW? The answer to all of these is no...because none of us have anything to hide. Your wife is still hiding things from you, and taking advantage of your 'appeasing nature'. She's using her anger to control your actions. Stop and think about how she responds any time you do anything that is contrary to allowing her to maintain her wayward behavior. Her first (and normally only) response is to get angry and stay angry until you back down.

That's why I've tried to have you change your responses by getting quieter every time she raises her voice. This is so 'out of character' for most people that it throws the angry person way off their center...it confuses them and they don't know how to respond to it. Thereby returning control of the conversation back to the other person. It also allows you to remain calmer, and to maintain your own control of what's being said and done.

There is NO way you can ever rebuild your marriage if you don't know the truth of what's going on. You know that she plans on leaving you, and right now your plan consists of doing whatever you can to appease her in the hopes that it will get her to change her mind and stay. I agree with the others and feel that you need to set some clear expectations for her. Let her know that she's welcome to leave anytime...but make it clear too that you'll never give her custody, that because you're in this for the MARRIAGE, you're not going to do anything to make the divorce that SHE is fighting for easier. Your only goal is to take care of your daughter, and hopefully rebuild your marriage. Barring the ability to keep the marriage together, your daughter is still priority...and you are by far the best parent for her to be with.

Hang in there friend...start making your OWN choices and taking the action you need to.

Another thought on this subject, and something else to think about...

POSSIBLY...the reason she is not actively pursuing the idea of moving out is because she truly doesn't want to, but doesn't want to give up the OM. Life may be settling down for her, and she may be balancing the two of you. She is settling in a postition where she doesn't feel any repercussions or consequences for her continued contact with OM. If there are questions or snooping she can effectively shut you down with her anger, she is able to live in her home, she is getting her EN's met by you, and she can continue the A with OM unquestioned.

It is WAAaaaay pas tthe time you should have found out information about this OM and time to contact the significant people in his life...BW, ex-W, children, parents he's living with, whoever...my guess? There is a W and a VERY intact M still going on...

Hope....not knowing about the truth doesn't change it does it? Meaning, the truth never changes. I have told you many times that an inordinate amount of anger raises my bull$hit alarm. The advice you're getting is sound Hope and you're avoiding the obvious.

You're also taking crumbs and making them into something they're not. An example I can give is that after my xw gave me the first attempt at a separation agreement and my intitial fury let down we had a great weekend as a family. After a few days I asked why that was not a positive sign and she said to me "it is too late, I am not changing my mind" and she was steadfast with her plan. We were getting a divorce....

so..find out the truth hope..stop avoiding it. You know what, if my XW gets furious with me about anything it raises my red flags high...she knows it...cause she is hiding something when she does that.

There is only ONE criticism I have of the post above by Stillheremakingit...the fact that the word "possibly" was used to qualify the statement.

Hope, you are a good man no doubt, but your a gullible one. Your continued "taking of crumbs" and extrapolation of those crumbs into "meals" borders on lunacy....outright lunacy.

You are treated about as low as a person can be treated. I read your posts and almost have to chuckle becasuse it almost is make believe to me, yet I know that that is not the case. Your children (subconcsciouly or not) see this. They are taking notes, forming opinions, and "learning" now.

You have been given excellent advice, yet your understandbale yet irrational fear of what HAS ALREADY HAPPENED to your marriage still paralyzes you.

You no doubt suffer from the "I hope my Wayward wife has a lightbulb" moment syndrome. Your still banking on "hope and prayer"...and don't get me wrong, that has it's place, but NOT untill you have done everything possible to make it happen. YOU HAVEN'T. You still go through the motions, ratcheting down your self dignity and self esteem waiting on the "lightbulb" to turn on, or the even more rare chance that her "family" makes her do the right thing.

As I have told you probably countless times already: You have a choice in your life and what happens to you, so if you are going to stay in this undoubtedly soul crushing, self dignity crashing "state", then you should do it with a smile.

I think in a way, you are like your Wayward Wife. Let me explain. Your more afraid of doing Plan B and enforcing boundaries than you are of your WW cheating on you and betraying your marriage, children and life. To you, I suppose, the pain and uncertainty of a Plan B is harder than staying in the same house with a Wayward who treats you and your children this way....After all, there is still the belief that "maybe" the WW will come to her senses. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I don't profess to have the answers to all of this, but I cannot imagine that this is NOT doing severe damage to the love you have for your wife. I don't know your wife and I certainly hate the woman for what she has done to you, and there is no doubt that we are only seeing about half of what really happens...I think your "fear" of this is still taking control.

Take back your life from this fear. For the love of GOD: DO this.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hope,

I know it hurts to read all these words. When I first started posting here some of the feedback hurt me. I was so raw and they were telling me it was going to get worse. I've been there and I thought the same things as you. I overanalyzed every word, every nuance of voice and body language, and every move he made. It was so pathetic. Every time he was halfway decent to me I thought he was having second thoughts. I remember early on having breakfast and staring out the window. He carried my glass of OJ from the kitchen to the table and I took that as a sign that he still loved me! Pathetic! It took him a long time to foward his mail and I thought that was a sign he'd stay or come back. Wrong. Once the divorce papers were served the mail was gone.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I still have hope for my relationship with my husband and you should with your wife. But I finally understand what people mean when they say the process is a very long one. Your wife will probably move out and take her A to the next level. A's usually burn out before TWO YEARS. Some are lucky and it goes up in smoke pretty fast. Do you understand how long this could take? I know it feels like you've been living in h*ll for eternity, but do you realize you are just in the beginning stages?

I have to say it was a relief when my WH moved out. The less contact I had the less tortured I felt. Even if she moves out Hope, you can still put things back together. Just think loooong term and take care of yourself and your children.

{{{{{Hope}}}}}

lem, I feel like the meek have invaded my body when it comes to my WW right now. I never was like this anxious and pathetic individual that I have become. I resent my WW for putting me through this and having no guilt or remorse for her actions. Quite honestly, your comments make me feel like [censored] and have me sometimes second guessing my committment to save my M.

Plan A involves eliminating LB'ers and trying to meet WS EN's. Well that has done absolutely nothing for my M that is now hanging by a thread. I hate being manipulated and disrespected by my WW to the point where I sometimes feel like committing the LB'er to end all LB'ers.

I resent having to avoid AO, SD and DJ while it's open season for my WW to do so.

She is not hostile towards me but her distance and coldness is taking its toll on me. I feel lonelier than being alone when I'm with my WW.

I hate giving everything I have to her and getting back crumbs. Sure I'm scooping up whatever crumbs I can right now...I'm starving here.

Yes my self dignity and self esteem have been crushed. The love of my life and mother of my children has decided to fill her unmet needs by having an A and now wants to leave. How do you expect me to feel? There is no ERASE button that I can press that will instantly remove the hurt and feeling that I have.

Call this a pity party or whatever else you want. I'm just tired of all this sh1t!!!

Hope,

I'm glad your tired of all this [censored]. It may be time to try something different. Plan A isn't working. You can't force your wife to leave the house, and it would be a really bad idea if you left, so plan B doesn't look that hopeful. I would suggest a complete 180 as suggested by Michelle Wiener-Davis:



1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting, get busy, do things, church, sports, tan,
15. When home with your spouse, be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening
and as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold, wait to see if spouse notices.
19. No matter what you're feeling TODAY, only show spouse happiness.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk.
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on other parts of your life).
28. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed
much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of
what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives
because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

This works with my wife. It may with yours.

I can understand that you're tired. Personally, I reached that point LONG before you did. And it was when I flat out told my wife that I'd reached the end of my rope with her, that I'd had enough of her games and her constant attacks on me and I'd gone to see a lawyer about D, that she realized what she was doing. That was the eye opener for her...she realized that I COULD and HAD BEEN pushed too far by her.

That was when she actually realized what she was going to lose. She hadn't thought about it for real before this...she still assumed we'd be friends and everything after this was all done.

I'm not saying that this is what you have to do. But you DO need to draw a line in the sand and let her know that you've reached YOUR limits with her stupidity and childish actions. You're sick of her hurting you deliberately when all you've done all these weeks is try to work through the problems. Let her know that this is NOT your failure here...it's entirely hers. Let her know you still love her, but there is a limit in what anyone can take.

This is how I see it at least. And then plan B like crazy. I wasn't able to plan B...wasn't aware of it, nor could I have truly pulled it off. And on top of that...the A was dying on its own at that point. But I'd reached the end of what I could take from her, and was finally getting to the point where I'd considered a plan D for the first time.

FIND YOUR BOUNDARIES...define them, define what you'll accept and not accept, and determine exactly what you're going to do if they're crossed. Then communicate them to your wife and stick to them!

I'm also wondering about a 180 for your situation. In effect that's what I did, and it had amazingly good effects on my WW. For awhile. Too bad they didn't last.

A 180 could possibly work for your situation, but ONLY if she's ripe for it. If she's leaning an inch towards leaving, a 180 could drive her over the edge. If she's leaning an inch towards staying, it could really straighten out her attitude. I see it as a really risky thing to do. I wouldn't recommend it, unless you're ready for that huge risk.

OK, here goes, time to shift your attitude a bit...

You have no control over your WW or the A. They have a life of their own.

Near as I can figure, and what the Harley's assert, is that after exposure, A's last anywhere from 2 months to a year (with about 6 months being the average, your mileage may vary, clerk cannot open safe, etc.)

Everything you are doing is to build a stronger M and a stronger YOU but much of what you are doing is making deposits in a lovebank that won't accept deposits until the OM is out of the picture.

Plan A is about exposing the A and beginning the demise of that A, by injecting it with reality you have injected poison into the A. Because A's flourish in the dark, you have exposed the A. There is STILL more exposure to happen though...there is the OM and his family to expose to.

You cut out the LB's, you begin to fulfil her EN's...and by the way, these are habits that should continue past recovery too. You are showing her the best side of you, and showing her what a life with you would be like. You DO NOT let this go on interminally. You let this go on as long as you can...when you start losing love, then it is time to move to Plan B.



Is it time? Only you can tell....many a poster has waited too long to move to Plan B and lost all love for their WS and moved to D.

Plan B is protecting yourself, protecting what love you have left...and waiting for the A to die a natural death...and if you have exposed in a wide enough circle, it will...

There is much talk about snooping and LB's. Many folks (not just you) claim it is an LB. I remember reading that Dr. Harley thinks married people should NEVER trust their S 100%, they always have the right to snoop. If you suspect your S is up to something, try to find out...you are doing your M a favor by getting all the facts.

I have my H's email passwords and accoutns, and he has mine. We can snoop anytime we want.

As a condition for recovery, you will probably need this...right now, you do it to save your M...

Hope....

I understand....I have walked your path with the exception of KNOWING about my XW's affair....

There will come a time when you THINK you'll WELCOME the idea of splittling up, of divorce. It crossed my mind over and over as the end drew near. Deep, Deep down I knew I had love for her somehwere....in fact I wrote in my journal the day I was served and tossed from my home, that I loved her but did not know if I could ever get past her actions, her betrayal (how little I knew)...

Know...that I too did many of the 180's. Most of them. I just went on with my life. In her papers she called it "I lead a seperate life from my family". I changed, she was too stubborn to notice until we had been living apart for quite a long time. So, understand that 180's, Plan B, all of it may never work in "saving" your marriage.

However, you've recognized something...that you can't erase your hurt. You're right, you can not. And it is this very statement that may help you understand certain thinsg in my current relationship with my XW....cause we can't erase some of that hurt.

You know, my xw wife went through and said all the standard stuff WW's do on D-day

"I never cared anyway"
"He made me feel special"
"You did not love me"
"if it wasn't for ...you did I would have never..."

It happens Hope...sometimes these things do not recover. I remember when my M died just like lemonman did. Th every moment it died....and it did not involve another person....

My relationship with my XW is all new....it is not status quo....cause that road ends in failure.....for us...

take care of yourself and please consider some alternatives to plan A. Pull yourself up and Plan B, SNOOP, etc. You really have nothing to lose.....

Hi Hope,
It seems we're rowing the same boat. This is where I am with my WH.

I've had enough! Sunday night I told my WH about some profoundly painful experiences that happened prior to our marriage...and how those experiences (undealt with) later affected me. I pretty much laid my heart and soul on the table. The best he could come up with was "ok".

I told him that we needed to make a decision either actively work on our marriage or separate. Long story short he acts as if nothing happened. At this point I can't stand the sight of him. I've completely back off...its his turn for the cold shoulder...something I have never done...we've been married over 17 years.

Is it just me or is there a lot of pain and hurt on these boards lately. I wonder if it has something to do with the season or it just being a temporary trend.

In years past I remember laughing and even enoying the stories of friend's affairs. I was so niaive and stupid then. It seemed so impersonal, so much of a game that I could not see how devastating these things really are. They destroy marriages, friends and families, all for the selfish persuit of unmet needs.

I second that statement!! There just are so many decisions to be made, and all are so BIG! I'm trying to follow the MB pricipals, but busting up an affair that is happening, but in DEEP SECRET, is not an easy thing to do. I've tried to uncover with absolute certainty that the A is continuing, but only have lots of circumstantial evidence. And with her decision to want to leave, I'm sure she'll just say, "well..we're over anyway".

My WW company Christmas party is on Saturday and she is going with her friend from work. I am uneasy about this and want to tell her that it bothers me. I really want to tell her not to go but that would be a LB.

How can I let her know that it bothers me without LB'ing.

Ask her to negotiate a solution using POJA. It might help.

OK...I've heard this several times on this board, and I think FAR too many BS's are falling for it.

It is VERY VERY VERY RARE for companies or corporations to have Christmas parties or similar things AFTER HOURS or ON WEEKENDS that they do not allow spouses to attend!!!!!

I've worked for two MAJOR corporations...I'm working right now for one of the top telecommunications companies in the US. And there are SOME events that we don't normally bring our spouses to...but these all happen during the work day. There are SOME things that happen after hours...but almost always they are either to include the spouse, or are NOT mandatory.

I'm sorry, but I'm calling BULLSTUFF on this right now. If you have a WS, and they are even faking about working the M, then do NOT accept this doodoo!!!

If nothing else...the spouse SHOULD tell their boss that they're experiencing some difficulties at home right now and just can't attend this kind of thing at the moment. There is NO reason why these things are mandatory!!!

Tell her that if she goes, she's once again betraying your trust and simply being hateful...there is no reason she has to go, or go without you!


/rant off now

NO, that would NOT be an LB...it's an LB if you are sarcastic, yelling, spiteful, immature in the WAY you tell her, but telling her is NOT an LB.

This will be a tough lesson for you if you don't start to learn it now...it's not WHAT you are feeling, but how you express it that turns anger, hurt and fear into an LB.

Exactly what Owl said. Most if not all companies want family involved in holiday events.

Hope,

I'm sure she already knows that it is going to bother you. She is going to the party and the other man will probably be there. How could she think differently?

If I were you I would start the 180 now. Plan something for yourself that evening. Don't sit at home and mope while she is playing with OM. Get a sitter and go out yourself. Don't tell here where, but make sure she knows that you are going.

You need to change someting Hope. What you are doing isn't working.