She has asked for the following...

- more expensive vehicle
- bedroom set
- her choice of furniture
- primary custody
- child support $900/month
- I get visitation 2 nights/week and every other weekend
- alimony $20,000 for living in "expensive neigborhood"

Boy what a great deal!

Hope, this is all just fogbabble. I would move this to your attorney at this point and make her an offer that gives you the house, primary custody and the majority of the assets. Just do this without discussion.

As far as her email, I would write back that she is humiliated by her actions, not by your exposure, and you are sorry that she chose to do things she is embarrassed to have exposed. I would also strongly consider telling the kids the truth. They do have a right to know and are old enough to understand.

I feel like I've take a blow to the stomach with her list of wants. It is just so cold and calculated that it really bothers me. I have a meeting with my lawyer tomorrow morning and will see what he advises.

This is her idea of being "generous" to me.

Hope, I'm here with you!!! Be strong and remember, you are a better man than WW. You are a better man than OM. Value yourself more than anyone, and EVERYONE else will value you more!!!

Thoughts, as always, are with you my friend!!

Owl, she can't see that her actions were the source of her humiliation, not my exposure. She refuses to see that and probably always will. When she said to me that her and OM were "just friends" back in July, why did she risk being caught and the subsequent consequences?

You are right, I will not accept blame for her indescresion. I did nothing wrong but she has somehow made me feel like it is all my blame. I don't have anything to hide from and have told her this. She just wanted me to keep everything to myself so when she left she could go on her merry way and continue R with OM. Now she can't do it so easily and she is angry.

And what is all this about not being able to talk on the phone or in the car because I taped her conversation. She can talk all she wants. I don't mind if she listens to my conversations. It is the secrecy that she is looking for the she can't have.

Mel, I'm tired of the fogbabble and I am READY for Plan B. I really am and want this over so I can start and remove myself from her manipulation and anger.

Mywife, thanks for the support. I need to get where you are and hopefully will be there soon.

Mel, I have been thinking of exposure and although she has much resentment from it, I am believing more and more that it was for the best. If I hadn't exposed, she would be in real deep with OM, I would be a nut case, and she would have no one to answer to. Regardless of all her anger and resentment from exposure, I have no regrets.

Hope..

No talking about this with any more....

Give her your proposals from your lawyer...tell her to have her lawyer talk about it with yours....this will kill you...she is so full of fog crap its not even funny! What a line...YOU HUMILIATED HER?!?!?! OH MY GOD....If the truth is humiliating then so be it.

Anyway...now she wants to take you to the cleaners....put your proposals in writing to her with a signature line for her to sign..tell her you're ready. If she starts fighting...

SCREW Plan B...Plan D...tell her a judge will decide...

understand the card she is playing is called the

He'll agree to anything just to stop the madness..

oh yeah....is it not an oxymoron to say you humiliated her? By telling people what she did?? I'm here my friend..good luck....stop trying to reason with her she's gone!

HTW,

I hope you don't mind, but I have followed your post from day one and you've gotten such good advice and consist encouragement from others that I just didn't feel the need to jump in...but today, I have something of benefit to add (I think).

First, some minor background. I am an MB oldie--been here since 1999; divorced May 2003. Yep, I waited a LONG time and tried every possible thing before I divorced...and yep, it hurt like ****** to have no EN's met that whole time. My point, though, is that I have a little experience.

I wanted to write to you today to make sure that you see some of the Babble and Inconsistency in your WW's reply. I know that you see some of it, but I also suspect that she did manage to push some buttons as well.

She wrote:
Reality check: if you, HTW, were to be on display for everyone to look at, would you feel humiliated...right now? I wouldn't. I would feel like I shouldn't have been so harsh with my BF this morning. I would feel like I should work at work instead of writing to you (heehee). But I wouldn't feel humiliated, because I am living an upright and faithful life. See how that goes?? She may in fact FEEL humiliated, but it is not because of something you did. She feels humiliated because she acted in an incredibly humiliating way, and you did not keep it secret.

She wrote:
Reality Check: If I were to behave in a dishonest way toward you--sneak around or mislead you or keep secrets or outright LIE to you--would it not be logical that the next time you see me, you would not trust me?? And that if I was a jerk and your trust was valuable to me, that I would have to take steps and be VERY open and VERY honest for a while in order to earn back your trust? If your FRIEND (not your spouse--who is your best friend, confidant, and lover--but like your drinking buddy or friend from college) were to mislead you or LIE to you, would you also distrust him and expect him to earn back your trust by being extra open and extra honest with you?? See, HTW, that is how you can discern fog-babble from reality check: Would you expect the same thing from a friend or co-worker. If you would expect a friend or co-worker to not lie to you, to earn your trust back if they did, and to be sorry for how they treated you--then it's more than reasonable to expect that out of your SPOUSE. And if she's unwilling to do what is reasonable, that is HER fog-babbling and squirming and has nothing to do with reality.

She wrote:
Reality Check: She will not get what she wants if she goes to court, Hope, and I suspect she knows that. Most WS's have this fantasy in their heads that the OP will meet all their EN's effortlessly, that the OP will never LB, that "true love will beat the odds" and that if they could only make the BS disappear, the WS will have the kids, the house, the money, AND The OP!!! That is just a DREAM.

Trust me, HTW, I am a veteran of the divorce courts! Here's what really happens. NEITHER PARTY gets what they think they deserve! Usually (or at least often) the marital house is sold and the profits if any are split between the spouses. WS's usually forget that they also split the DEBT!!! Now, neither party has the funds to really live the lifestyle they had before, because they were pooling their money AND RESOURCES before. And, HTW, no disrespect intended, but WHERE IN THE WORLD does she think she's going to get $20k in alimony?? That is just completely unrealistic. Alimony is usually awarded when the spouses have been married for DECADES and one spouse went from HS to doctor while the other stayed home and didn't get an education...thus the SAH person doesn't have the job skills or abilities to earn a living like the doctor does. AND THEN...alimony is a monthly amount and TEMPORARY with the intention of the SAH person getting job skills and getting on their feet (for example, $300/mo for 3 years).

She wrote:
Reality Check: WS, this is the price of continuing to pursue your A rather than work at your M...you will lose your house--and most likely so will HTW eventually. Hope, do not fall for this. This is nothing but guilt and button pushing. SHE wants to take the house from you...and SHE thinks she is entitled to the house more than you are. This house was built under the assumption that your family would be living there, and if she wants out of the family, she will then lose the house--it is just that simple.

She wrote:
Reality Check: Nope, she chose this on her own. You are not forcing her to live in an expensive community...she can live in a hut in Tahiti for free if that fits her budget. She just wants to have her house, your money, her kids, her possessions and carry on her A with no consequences, and that is not reality. If she has to start from scratch, she can start in an apartment like she expects you to live in. And you do not want to take the kids from her. You want her to be in their daily lives and chose being their mother and your wife! You have repeatedly offered her the chance to be the kids shining light and a beacon of what a marriage can be like when two partners really forgive and work on a stunning relationship, and SHE (not you, SHE) is choosing that leaving to be with OP is more important than her children. Once again, HTW, do not fall for this.

Nope--SHE did that by having an affair and not returning to her husband and children.

Nope--once again, SHE did that. If she lied and kept secrets, then one of the ways to prove she's being honest is to let you tape her and know her schedule and be very, very open. She can talk on the phone or talk in the car or get promoted in her career all she wants IF SHE WERE LIVING AN HONEST LIFE. SHE chose to be dishonest, and now she's griping because you actually want her to pay the price.


Yep--why should you have to financially support the A when you are perfectly capable of providing for any family that stays at home?

She wrote:
Reality Check: She's saying she'll keep your secrets if you'll keep hers and don't tell the truth to family and kids; however, in reality you admit you made mistakes and weren't a good husband, AND YOU ARE WILLING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT AND CHANGE. She is not.

She wrote:
Reality Check: Can you say "Blame, Blame and more Blame?" How about projection? See, HTW, you did not make her into a terribly shameful person. You spoke the truth and brought terribly shameful behavior to the light of day. At that point she had two choices: turn away from the behavior and stop it--or blame and continue. She is an adult with free will, and she chose to blame you and continue the terribly shameful behavior. That is NOT your decision.

In the end, I hope this She Wrote/Reality Check has been helpful for you in cutting through the WS Fog-Babble and seeing some what would be reasonable. Sadly, your WW is not anywhere near close reality right now, and although it may not seem like it now, the reality of not divorce is likely to stun her into some serious pain. She is not going to get a new car! She is not going to get new furniture or $20k in alimony! That is unrealistic! She will however get some joint visitation (so it will cost her at least half the time with her kids0--she will probably get some child support (as I assume you make more than she does)--and she will probably get half of the current furniture and vehicles, half the EQUITY in the house, and half the marital debt. Doesn't sound pretty, does it???


FNCJ

Hi Hope,

It's been awhile since I have posted but I have been keeping up with your thread.

My H says so many of the same things as your WW. Isn't the fog great? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I know how much it hurts to hear the one you love talk to you like you are no better than a convict up for parole. I often listen to my H and feel such intense sadness. Then I remember that man I used to share my life with and wonder if I will ever see him again. I know it's hard, but don't let the fogbabble sink in too deep. WS's are incredible liars, esp. to themselves. How else can they expect to live happily ever after with each other? Reality sets in and they are no better off than with the BS. In fact, I believe they are worse off. Think about it... Their relationship started with deceit, was based on lies, flavored with fantasy, and laced with sin. Not to sound like a bible-thumper, but God doesn't bless relationships that began as extramarital affairs. My H even tried to tell me that God forgives. In fact, the OW told me the same thing. Do you know what my response was? God forgives when we repent. Repenting involves acknowledging the sin, and turning away from it. God does not forgive your sin when you are still indulging in it. The truth sucks sometimes. HE HE HE. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Ok. Enough of my pulpit talk. Please know that I am praying for you and for the quick demise of your WW's fog and hateful actions toward you and the M. You are a great guy and someday that will be appreciated by your WW or someone that will be wonderful for you.

Loni <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Well my WW came home tonight and was almost apologetic and said I don't have to agree to what is on the list and that I can change things. If anything, seeing that list has made me more determined no to give in to her wants.

Sendme, as always your advice is much appreciated since you went through a similar situation. I will see my lawyer tomorrow and ask him if he thinks I should draft up my own agreement for her. I'm still shaking my head when I think of her list...I mean $20,000 alimony because I'm forcing her to live in an expensive neighborhood. Wait until my lawyer reads that one, he will get a chuckle.

FNCJ, for your first post on my thread, it was certainly a great one. Thanks for breaking down her fog babble for me. Believe it or not I still have a hard time making out the fog babble since she says it with such conviction.

She is so hung up on my exposure that is all she focuses on when we have R talks. Never mind the A, it was a mistake and it's not about the OM. That is what I always hear.

Her response to me is typical of what she says whenever I throw out an olive branch to her. I just wish one day she will stop blaming me for her problems and understand they are self inflicted through her A with OM.

After all this I still don't want to hurt her and feel bad about trying to get more than half of anything. How could she consciously ask for all that. The child support amount alone is the amount I would pay if I'm with the kids less than 40% of the time. I will NEVER agree to that.

I think I will ask for Primary without any child support because for me it is not about the money. I make about $15,000 more than WW so I wouldn't consider that alot more.

Spoke to my lawyer this morning and he basically said "NO" to her wanting primary, more expensive vehicle, child support of $900/month, and $20,000 in alimony.

He said with joint physical custody the most I shoulc be paying would be about $115/month to offset our difference in salary.

Defenitely no alimony.

Defenitely no primary for her.

And she needs to cough up the difference between the value of the vehicles (approximately $14,000) if she wants the more expensive one.

I will be sending her a copy with my revisions and I will state that I will agree only to something very cloes or we should go through our lawyers.

Hope, your lawyer sounds more on track for the laws of your area that I read. Your WW was way overplaying her hand, and I think your lawyer is being fair in what he is providing. I don't think you would be cheating her one bit with that offer, in fact you would still be generous considering the things she has done.

Hope, what about the home? You are making it clear that you get the house, right?

Askme, believe it or not, I don't want to hurt my wife. However when I received her proposal I was extremely offended that she would try and pull that on me.

It actually made me more determined than ever not to give in to her wants. I think she seems to think because she is the mother she is entitled to more. She even told me that she deserved primary becasue she is the mother. I basically said to her "what am I, a piece of sh!!".

And it was curious how she set up the visitation schedule so she could get more CS from me. I will NEVER let my kids go without, however I REFUSE to support my WW lifestyle and R with OM. Her best friend at work who has enable her A with OM all along go everything form her XH and I think my WW thinks the same will happen for her. The only problem is I am not that guy and she can't play that game with me.

I somehow think my WW will not be happy with my counter offer even though it is as equal as you can get. I'm ready to go to court if necessary.

Right now I just want to get to Plan B and remove myself from the fray.

I see a funny thing happening over the last little while between me and my WW. As I seem to slowly becoming stronger and more sure of what I want, she seems to be crumbling ever so slowly.

It's funny how she thinks I am punishing her by not giving her primary, the home or child support since she is the one who said that she had the A to "hurt" me.



I don't know if she will ever crash since she is much to stubborn.

Mel, yes I have made if VERY clear that I want the home. She is not at all happy with that and may try to have me sell the home. Remember she thinks I am punishing her by staying there.

I will have to check with my lawyer if she can do that.

It will be difficult for me to maintain our home on my own so I will have to refinace with a longer mortgage.

Ok, HTW.

Just a couple of facts learned from experience of dealing with lawyers.

(1) “Amicable” divorce is a myth. Look – you two are not going to be friends after the big D so why be friendly? If not for the kids you could go through life without any further contact.
(2) No lawyer worth his fee will start by presenting a “fair” offer. No lawyer worth his fee will accept the first offer.
(3) Several hundred/thousand dollars “saved” doing the D work such as dividing assets yourselves can easily be eaten up by a disadvantageous deal. A lawyer can be worth every single dollar you pay.

In order not to LB then get used to muttering all the time you are all about marriage – the lawyer is all about divorce. Allow him to be the bad guy. He’s used to it.

BTW: What’s black and furry and looks good around a lawyer’s neck? A Rotweiler!

Hope,

Hi! Thanks for the kind words about my post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I would like to give you a Reality Check now on what a divorce will really look like financially--so that you're not taken to the cleaners, but also so that you're not thinking unrealistically.

In my situation, we had a 4000 sq.ft. home with 1 acre lot, swimming pool and hot tub deck and about $100K equity. We had two newer vehicles (both the same year and both paid for). My exH made $84K annually (his earning capacity) and I made $25K annually (my earning capacity). He was one credit shy of an MBA, and I had never finished college but had contributed to putting him through school. We were married for 15 years and together for 18; our children were 13yo and 16yo respectively.

I will summarize for you, as I'm sure you can imagine, this did not just "work out" this way. I did not get any alimony--not one penny--even though I had been married for 15 years, put him through college, and his earning potential was MUCH higher than mine.

He moved out of the marital home, and with my earning there was NO WAY I could afford the mortgage, so we sold our marital home and split the equity. I did not get to stay in my "expensive neighborhood"--I used my equity to get a three-bedroom townhome with a pool right outside our driveway, a lovely park-like setting, and accepting of pets...in a nice but less expensive neighborhood.

We had joint custody on paper as far as decision-making goes, but I had the kids "homebase" with me and they spent 313 overnights with me (so in other words, the custody was joint on paper but they spent most of their time with me.) My exH was ordered to pay $900/mo Child support (using his income, my income, and # of overnights to figure the average).

He got half the furniture and I got half the furniture--so there was NO newer or better furniture involved. He got one car and I got the other--so there was no getting a newer car out of the deal. He got his student loan and I got mine (which was nothing because I didn't finish college). We split the debt right down the middle, and he ****** about having to pay anything.

Sooooo--taking all that into consideration, I think your lawyer's offer is a good, realistic start...her's is nothing but daydreaming. I mean no disrespect; there just is NO WAY she will get what she's asking for. No way. And I would make one suggestion to you, Hope. When a felon commits murder and is sent to prison...that criminal STILL has parental rights when it comes to custody and visitation. Now, they may be minimum custoday and only supervised vistitation, but they will still get some. Thus, I would suggest that you start accepting the fact that shooting for joint custody is realistic. I doubt if you will have much success convincing a judge that you should have sole custody when your WW was a major caregiver until recently AND she has done no crime in the eyes of the legal system (remember, affairs don't count much in court...they may be morally wrong, but a judge doesn't use it to decide so don't expect primary because *she* had the affair!). I would shoot for YOU being the primary residence and joint decision-making--that's what custody is called now by the way: residence and decision-making.

((Hope)) Hang in there brother!




FNCJ

FNCJ, I have no doubt his will be extremely difficult finacially on both of us and more so on me if I'm forced to pay CS. I may ultimately have to sell our home. I will try to make it work for the sake of my kids.

Last night WW came home and is not talking to me at all. I guess she got my email and is upset that I would not give in to her "generous" offer. I prefer it this was since talking about these issues is a LB'er for both of us.

She knows where I stand now and it is up to her to decide on what she wants to do. Agree with my counter offer that is almost 50/50 in every respect except that I want to remain in the home, or try to fight for primary through the courts. Either way I'm ready for it.

She made some dumb comment last night to the kids about her not being a good parent in everyone's eyes. What she was refering to was that by me not accepting her offer of primary custody then I am by default labeling her as a bad parent. I have NEVER said anything like this or even remotely close to this. She is either trying to make me feel bad or is feeling self pity. Why does she seem to think that anything short of primary for her makes her a bad parent?

I'm really feeling stronger as the days go by even though I know it will be tough once the LS is complete.

I can't wait until I have removed myself form her anger, resentment, coldness and sarcasm. If she won't be able to use me as her outlet, who will become the next target...OM?

Because she is the mother and the way that our society works right now is that a mother who doesn't have primary has "lost" something. In her case it appears to be a financial motivator. This was not the case with my xw. She was a mess when I had boys...I am not sure

Who cares? Do you really care who takes her wrath? At first, especially the onset of Plan B, she'll direct it at you and you must not get involved with it. Ignore it!!! Plan B will be more for you than her. You'll start moving on with your life. You will go through withdrawal yourself, be ready for it. It's hard....

Good luck....

Yes, SendMe, there will be WD, however, I've pointed out to Hope that 2.5 weeks in, and it is so much better than what Hope and I have been through these last 4 months or so. Yes, there are some periods of WD, but I think going through this "living with an active WW" rips our Love Banks' to shreds in a hurry, even knowing that it truly is not our "W". And the devaluing of us, right before our eyes, is about the hardest thing to take. Plan B is a Godsend at this point!!!

Sendme, I truly believe that my WW will have an extremely difficult time when the kids are with me. She loves them very much even though her attention towards them has been affected by her A. She is obviously distracted by other issues and seems to be trying to hard to be a good mother lately. I don't know if it is the guilt or her trying to ramp up her case for being a good mother if this goes to court.

Over the past year I remember too many times when I would be with the kids if they were sick or I would rush home from work if they had a fever. I won't forget the night where my DS had a fever of 105 and my WW was working late. I couldn't get the fever to come down and she was no where around. That was prior to d-day but I can't help but think her R with OM was starting to heat up. IF that were to happen 2 years ago there is no way she would be at work late while her son was that sick. I was really worried about him and she was working late. Where the [email]f@@@[/email] were her priorities?

I'm saying this because tonight my DS has a fever of 104 and she has taken over taking care of him. Where the heck was she the other times when I took days off work to take them to the walk in clinic or rushed home to be with them.

She went to her dam company x-mas party when both my kids had a fever. My MIL found out and called her on her cell and lambasted her. Then she came home and gave me crap for telling her mother the truth. Her kids are sick and she is enjoying herself at a party.

Only just a few weeks ago, my WW took my DS to the doctor because he had a fever. She stayed home in the moring, took DS to doctor around noon, then left him with my MIL and went to work. That day the PI followed her and found out she picked up her girl friend from work, went to get Chinese food, went to her house for a while, then pick up her kids from school to take them home and finally came home around 7:30. Her son is sick with a fever at home and she is having fun. That really pissed me off.

So when I see her with my DS tonight trying to do everything for him I resent it. A good mother doesn't do that to her kids. Yes she is a good mother when she is home with them, but a good mother doens't make her kids a secondary priority, especially when they are sick.

I remember on day prior to d-day when my DD was sick and my WW came home late and said to her "I'm sorry for being a bad mommy". At the time I didn't make much of it, but they were all red flags. I think deep down she feels guilty for some of these things even though she won't admit to it.

I don't know why all of these bad memories are flowing out of me now. It may be the resentment I have towards her for treating me like crap for the last several months while her dedication to her kids could be considered satifactory.

Mywife, I can really relate when you talk about the WS unvaluing us. Plan B will be hard, but I am ready!