John,

See, you are much smarter than I was. You are aware that you are vulnerable, so you have protections in place. I thought, for whatever reason, that I had it all under control. I was wrong. It took two huge mistakes for me to realize that if I started feeling like someone cared about my wellbeing and they were a member of the opposite sex, I'd better run as hard and fast as I could the other way because it could only mean trouble. I made up my mind after the 1997 incident that I was going to just be lonely. I got much better at it. We went 9 months once (actually just a year or so before he met OW) withouth SF at all. But in my case, it wasn't so much the lack of SF but just feeling like I meant nothing to him--no hugs, no kisses, no desire to be around me. It was very lonely.

I have proved to myself that I can endure loneliness without falling into the same trap I did before. But it's highly doubtful that anyone else will believe I can change, because the world seems to think that once someone does something, it's the way they will always be.

As for who I consider a possible marriage prospect, it has more to do with how they handled their marriage and the reason they left it rather than a stumble or two they may have made in the marriage, so long as they were resolved.

How would you know a women wouldn't refuse sex after marriage? Good question. How do I know a man won't? (I was married to one who did, but he didn't before we were married.) How do we know we are not getting into something with a serial cheater (because they will be the ones who don't share their history--the people who made the mistake and are repentent will be the ones who are also willing to disclose the info beforehand.)

It all seems rather scary to me sometimes. I'm trying hard to trust that God will work it out for my good--I'm just praying that he gives me strength to deal with how it works out if I end up being alone for the rest of my days because of my past. But I understand your dilemma in being married and being refused, and that can be almost as lonely. The only difference is you still have the partner; the companion to share your life with. You just lack the intimacy.

LL

Do not judge all of us by the actions of those whose depth of character may not be so great. This board is *filled* with people who have changed their lives in dramatic and powerful ways. And I suspect it is moderately representative of the world at large.

Just because you perhaps/maybe haven't met one yet, doesn't mean you won't.



God *never* asks us to go through an ordeal that is too great for us. There is *always* a way for us to choose wisely. WE may fail the test due to our *own* poor choices, but there was always a way to succeed.

God doesn't play head games or heart games with us.

You ride an emotional pendulum, seemingly driven entirely by how you *feel*. Faith is not a feeling. You can feel apart from God, you can feel close to God. YOu moved, God didnt'. There may be a hidden lesson for you here. And he is *always* looking for what's best for you.

So relax a little bit, and enjoy the journey. IF this guy isn't the one, so be it. There will be a perfect one for you, *or* God will grant you the mechanism to cope with being alone, and perhaps doing even more wondrous things. But his plan isn't for you to be miserable forever.

Maybe it's time to look at how to get off the pendulum and being driven by emotion, and look for the path you should be on. (Not that there's anything wrong with emotions, or being a feeler. The issue is only if your emotions control you, and not you them)...

Anyway...

That is so true. I can look back and see how I could have succeeded in the situations I failed at, but the problem is, I did fail at them. I can't take back that failure.

And as for God's plan, no, I don't think he wants me to be miserable. But he lets a lot of people remain alone who don't necessarily want to be. I was okay with it for the short term, but it was never something I considered might be a permanent thing until lately, as I've started really thinking through what it is that some poor, unsuspecting soul is going to get dumped on them if I find I really like them (as in the guy I'm seeing currently).

He hasn't called me since Wednesday night--not sure whether I should worry (because I illuded to wanting some time to talk to him when he gets back later Saturday and may have made him nervous) or to just assume that he and his brother are having a great time on the Iowa bikeride and that he's been too busy to call me again. I didn't ask him to call me nightly when he left, so I was sort of surprised by the Wednesday call anyway.

As for that emotions thing--I'm not sure how to stop being a "feeler". Right now, I'm struggling because once I started dating, I realized just how much I miss being in a relationship. But at the same time, I'm struggling with dealing with my past and realizing that it could keep me alone forever--something I didn't dwell too much on until now.

So it's sort of both things at once--realizing how good it feels to be desired by someone again (which is a really good feeling), coupled with a fear that I may never have anything permanent (a really bad feeling). It's sort of like dangling a very tasty candy in front of me and then yanking it away. So I get happy when I think of one, and then I come crashing back to earth when I think of the other.

But I'm getting off topic from the thread so I'm going to stop now.

LL

An update from me: The guy I've been seeing is back from his bikeride and we had a very long on-the-phone talk tonight. I'd have liked to have done it in person, but the first time we'd have to be alone together would be next weekend, as he has his kids all this week.

So, I took a bunch of deep breaths, stuttered a lot, and spent a good half hour telling him about me. He had a few questions, but his big question was, "LL, it's not your past I'm so worried about, but more will you be able to put it behind you and forgive yourself and look toward the future?"

I told him that if he did decide he had more questions, I promised I'd answer them honestly. But if he doesn't, I'm going to try and stick this all in the dark recesses of my brain and we won't talk about it again. He said he was okay with that.

We'll see what happens after he has a chance to think on it, but right now I'm set to see him on Wednesday, because neither of us want to have to wait another week, since we've already gone one week. It will be different--this is the first time I've met anyone's kids. He will have his 15-yr-old daughter with him. But I guess I'm going to take that as a positive sign. If I'm good enough to meet the daughter, I must not be all bad.

My faith is very weak, but at least I trusted God enough to put it out there for this guy to hear, and so far so good.

So I guess I found out that, yes, there are people who will date former WS.

LL

Well, that's good news.

It sounds like you learned that Radical Honesty pays off. It really does in any relationship that's worth having. You seemed to be viewing it as some kind of divine punishment, but really, as you just found out, it's a divine gift.

Are you listening to what he said? "LL, it's not your past I'm so worried about, but more will you be able to put it behind you and forgive yourself and look toward the future?"

You display a lot of beating yourself up and holding yourself down. It's not just in your thoughts and words -- when you drill yourself in the same thoughts and words all the time, they WILL translate into your behavior. And this pregnancy risk thing is exactly that -- your relentless holding yourself down translating into behavior to KEEP you down. Your guy is expressing concern that as much as he likes you, this isn't something he's sure he can live with, and I think that's smart of him. All that negativity and self-loathing is toxic to be exposed to all the time, and as we've already seen, it finds its way out in destructive behavior.

LL,

You are doing a great job of beating the crap out of yourself!

I haven't seen this kind of self-immolation since I watched that special on TV where the Muslims were whipping themselves with chains to prove their "devotion" to Allah.

God is not punishing you, you are.

You are not a WS.

Dear, if you don't stop doing this to yourself the next thing we are going to read is your post from the funny farm...y'know? nice place, food is good, pills are colorful, no more dating issues.

No more "buts", no more "chains on the back"...God isn't going to drive men away, or keep you single...you are.

I've made my own mistakes, owned up to them, and moved on.

You should too unless you'd like to make this a self-fulfilling prophecy.

{{{{{hug}}}}}

RM,

I'm going to try really hard to let go of my past. This guy I'm seeing (or will see again on Wednesday)has not brought it up since an email he sent me last night after our long phone conversation, and his ending comment was:



It's going to take me some time to be able to grasp that someone who has been betrayed by two different women in their life can accept me even though I made some terrible mistakes along those same lines. But he is willing to look forward and not backward, so I'm going to pray that God will help me let go and do that, too.

I really like this guy. I like him a lot. He shares my Christian beliefs, he's open and honest, he's smart, he's funny, he's in good shape, and he can sing really well (even if it does have to be to country music). I wish he were closer than 100+ miles because it cuts down on how often we can see each other, but I'll deal with that at the moment.

You're right--I'm afraid I could creat my own self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't want that. I want to let go. Maybe finally finding someone I care about, who can accept me for who I am will be what I need to let it go.

LL

Afleck!

Hey Jo....

Are you referring to Ben...

Or that stupid duck on TV? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

E

Hey LL,

No...No...NO!!!!

This was the part you are supposed to be fixing about you dear.

Not anyone elses job at all, and you shouldn't be depending on another to heal yourself.

It is YOU that is healing from your marriage LL. It is you that needs to get yourself mostly right BEFORE you go otu there looking.

In my totally unprofessional opinion LL you have work to do...I understand your want of companionship...I understand your want of a partner...I understand the want of that closeness and desire.

The problem is you NEED them right now. I've been there and it's a whacky freakin' world..and in the end sad and unsatisfying.

If you think you went overboard trying to see 4-5 guys LL? Try seeing 20 women in a month, 25 women in a month...11 women in one week and do that for 2-3 months....but even though that is an extreme it is the same thing you are doing now...still to this day...trying to get what you need instead of figuring out what you want.

I don't need a women to help make me whole or forgive myself, or help me get over my past.

I do know what a women needs to have to compliment me and my life now. One of those things is not a magic wand to make me all better.

Don't take this the wrong way LL, I am not trying to be harsh in the least. I've been on the path you are on.

Listen, this guy could be the greatest thing since sliced white bread LL, I don't know and neither do you, even if he is I wonder if you are ready for that? You've gone out on how many dates with how many people since your divorce?

Just be careful and work on you, not work yourself over..lol...but just take a long look at where you are and think about where you've been and are you far enough along to be getting involved like this..it certainly seems as if you have yourself looking in the future already.

Take Care
RM

Hi E

RM,

I'm kinda' frustrating, huh?? (I am smiling as I write that, because I know myself too well.)

About your comment, whether right or wrong, bad or good, I do need to know if someone I may be beginning a relationship with will accept me, past and all.

You're right, there is still some healing to do from my marriage, but honestly I feel like most of it won't come until I hit the triggers and deal with them and get past them, because right now I don't know what most of them even will be.

Yes, I want a partner, I want companionship, and yes I want closeness. I went without much interaction at all with the male species for 18 months after my ex moved out. I did okay. It was relaxing, though I had my ups and downs. But the nagging little voice that's always been there is still there. I don't want to spend the rest of my life alone. I realize it's possible, but it's sure not what I want. It's not how I've ever been wired. I like sharing my life with someone else. It's just that I have this huge THING called my past mistakes (of the WS variety) that pops up in front of me each time I think I might be able to have a new start at life with a new person. And I think, why would they want ME??

So, having someone hear me out and still continue to want to see me is a very good thing. And my point was, maybe if I get past this with a few people (my current pastor knows a little, and he still accepts me, and a few friends know a little, and they still accept me--now if someone who may be relationship material accepts me, maybe eventually I'll start believing it.)

It's sort of like my issues with my bust size--for 19 years I really had issues with that off and on, and seriously considered on multiple occasions having surgery. But now that I've been out dating, I've come to realize that it really hasn't been the issue with any of the guys I have or have not continued to see, and it certainly wasn't an issue with the guy I made the big booboo with a couple weeks ago. He was more than willing to continue seeing me--his last email told me he would always be there if I needed a friend, he was sorry we didn't get to expand on things, and he thought I was a very special person. No mention of inadequacy.

So, if I can get where I feel more confident about that, maybe there's hope for this situation, too. I'm not a WS anymore. That person is long since gone. It's just taking me a while to stop turning and looking at that person.

As for if I'm ready for a real relationship, I have no idea. I feel like I am, but I guess I have no way of knowing for sure. You're right, I've not been out with many people (the actual figure is 5, though two of those were single-date only situations.)

(And I must say, to pull off what you did, you are a heck of a lot more organized than I am, obviously!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />)

Yes, I am guilty of looking to an extent into the future--but that was the mistake I made with the last guy. I didn't look far enough into the future, and I ended up enjoying the company of and getting too close to a guy with whom there was no potential of a relationship. And that's where he wanted to go with things. And I ended up kind of hurting him, I think, even though I said over and over I couldn't commit to him.

So, I'm looking into the future now and saying "what if this went further--is this someone I could allow myself to be with?" And in this new guy's case, at least right now, yes, I think I could. There are no huge red flags waiving yet anyway.

Thats all good and well and of course we all heal in our own good time.

Maybe you are faster at it, I don't know.

It took me a good solid 6 months to get past the "need" stuff and get to the "want" stage..

I'm not more organized, you should see my house! What I was then was hurt, rejected, and in need of affirmation of my desirability, will anyone want me?

Of course doing that satisfied none of those worries, it just made me feel like crap. I'm not a meat-market kinda guy in the least but I did play one for a few months.

Just be careful, someone affirming your need to feel wanted and desired again won't fix you....I guess that was my main point LL.

I said this before and maybe it bears repeating...Looking forward instead of living today(emotionally) will retard your growth and healing from your marriage. If you look ahead with this man you will miss the important things you need to know today to make rational and positive decisions tomorrow.

RM

I have a question for you then Reborn.

Did you take yourself out of the circuit for that 6 month time frame? Did you quit dating all together?

I know how important the whole "time" factor is, as I've been living it for a little bit now, and going through the stages really does bring us out to a better place.

At this time, I don't have a NEED for a relationship, or really dating either. I have not given up on the whole thing. I still very much have a desire for it, when and if it comes along in my life.

Just curious!

Karona

I didn't realize you were a WS also...not that it matters at all.

Anyway, you hit the nail on the head:



It took me a while to come to that point...all I can do now is OWN my prior bad behavior, be HONEST about it at the apropriate time with any future women and let them decide whether I am worth the risk. If I am worth the "risk" to them, I will PROVE that such behavior is a thing of the past, NOT a part of who I am NOW.

Cruz is having a lot of guilt about his past WS behavior, so I am going to "borrow" your sage-like words and post to him in GQII.

Thanks,

Scott

Hi Karona!

No I didn't...I had an epiphany one night sitting alone after all the kiddies were in bed.

It all just tumbled over me how badly I was behaving, how out of character, out of my comfort zone I was.

Then I just dated one at a time whether it was once or more, to find out who they were not what they could do for my battered and bruised psyche.

It took about 6 months to feel like myself again and decide what I wanted rather than what I needed. In the meantime I found out about a lot of things I didn't want, didn't need, and wouldn't put up with for companionship.

Hows things on your end?

RM

Reborn,

Very interesting! And glad you came to your senses too!!

I'm doing well thank you! Much better than when I started that "other" thread.
I guess I have to say, you all were right!! I have survived.

I have had a couple of guys show interest in me, but I'm just not ready for dating, yet. I don't know if it's fear, or just that if there is no immediate interest on my end, that I don't want to bother.
I don't feel like I'm missing anything right now by not being involved in dating or a relationship, so I think that's a positive.

I know what I "want" so, I will just be patient. In the meantime, I will grow within myself.

Karona

NOT A FLIPPIN CHANCE. I was a BS.

W8:

I love that Maya Angelou quote....

I first read it in Dr. Phil's Relationship Rescue shortly after D-day....and really adopted it as a goal...

But I am curious....if you believe what she is saying don't you think that a former WS could "do better, when they knew better," too?

I don't know your story and based on your sig line it looks like you have found a happy and fulfilling life... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I guess I look at that quote as referring to the opportunity for anyone to change if they want to...and as a former WS AND BS....I know it is true...because I know how much I have changed living both (excrutiatingly difficult) sides of the fence....

I am not saying everyone can forget their past experiences and become involved with a former WS...just saying people can and do learn from experience even former WS's...kinda what Maya Angelou is saying I think...

Best regards

E

Elad...I can understand and respect your opinion but for me I WOULD NOT date a WS. After what I've been through there is no way I would put myself in that kind of situation again.
I'm not saying that all WS are horrible people at all...just that I wouldn't date one.