L.I.T. said:
FR said:
As the BS in my marriage I'd like to comment here. I think L.I.T. hit the nail on the head. I think the key, for all of us - BS, WS, OP, BS/WS - is to learn to love ourselves. And, I disagree with FR because I think as we come to love ourselves more we have more compassion for all people, not just the BS in this situation. FR's attitude, to me, reflects a perpetual victim stance. I have worked hard over the past almost 5 years since my H left to shed the victim role, to stop looking for love to come from outside, and to begin to find it within myself and through my relationship with God.

TBG talks about trying to get his wife to meet his EN's and then having an EA as a wake up call. Most A's happen for some kind of reason. The problem is, for the WS, the lack of self love that allows them to violate their ethical values because they believe their happiness depends on another person, the OP. The problem for the BS is the lack of self love that we believe, at least on D'day and usually for quite a while after, that our happiness depends on another person, the WS. I for one degraded myself and lied to myself in my unsuccessful attempts to "save" my marriage.

My H and I were both unhappy and didn't know what to do about it - we didn't know MB principles, we didn't tell each other the truth, we found other people and things to distract us from the pain. My H had an A. I lost 40 pounds and almost lost my mind. Neither of us was acting from self-love. Neither of us had compassion for anyone, including ourselves.

I believe that when we don't love and value ourselves, we will shed our moral principles when they get in the way of getting something we think we must have, someone else's love. We only think this because deep inside, we believe we need someone else's love to fill us up. Violating our principles is a very unloving act, to ourselves. Why else would so many WS be so wounded? It may be easier for WS's in recovery (personal, not necessarily marital) to see this connection because it's harder for them to blame their behavior on someone else.

But we BS's need to realize that WS's didn't cause our hurt, not really. It was our own lack of self-love that contributed to the problems in our M's that lead to the A's in the first place and that sometimes lead us to hang on to bitterness and resentment that causes us the most pain. I know this is true for me, and my situation was as ugly as any with more reasons for bitterness than many. I've realized, the bitterness and resentment only hurts me. As I've heard it said in Al-Anon, resentment is like taking poison expecting the other person to die.

LIT:

From Treereich:


From you:

This is the original "problem" as I see it. Treereich made a "blanket" statement about those "types" with similar actions to the one who destroyed her family's life as she knew it. (Much like one who's been robbed may feel abouty thieves and one who's been raped may feel about rapists.) I do not feel that Treereich made this statement in a "personal" way toward you - it only became personal when you replied to her post with "great offense".


I am only looking at one side of you because that's the side you presented to Treereich (as the WS)! As to going back to your past 2 years of posts - I understand that you've made tremendous gains in your personal life. I'm hoping that you will eventually come far enough that you won't take offense to a general statement from a still-smarting WS. (Particularly since you've been a BS!)




And I would ask - why did this blanket statement greatly offend you? You've dealt with your past actions - put them behind you. Why would the statement greatly offend you?


I will go back and re-read the post you're referring to and get back to you.

ELAD:


How one "takes" my message is not something I have control over. That is totally up to each who reads it.


And you call me sanctimonious? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
As to your hurt - and subsequent knowledge of the pain you must've felt: Then certainly you should understand where Treereich is coming from in making a general statement about WS's. As to my quote: I stand firm to the message.



I never said - or inferred anything of the sort.

FR

Woah! Why is everyone suddenly so angry? It's a rhetorical question. Deep breaths everyone. Bickering at one another isn't going to do anyone any good. All wisdom gets lost in angry words.

Great post, LetSTry. We can run from ourselves, but we can never get away.

Hi LetSTry:

I still like that name!



It's completely OK to disagree with me. Lord knows plenty do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And I do struggle with the "compassion for everyone" issue. I have a hard time feeling compassion toward the terrorists who affect(ed) so many lives in the world, and for serial cheaters who destroy families with such little regard, and for those "adult" men who rape children. I know that I should show compassion to these - and all people, but I need more effort to show compassion for those.

As to a perpetual victim stance, I glanced back over my post and nowhere do I talk about my personal situation. I clearly focus on Treereich's situation because that was the topic. Do you not consider that to be compassionate? As to my own sitch and the victim-stance, I will consider what you're saying. I can tell you though - that I feel good about having moved on from a no-win situation surrounding my xww. Steve Harley, my church counselor (who is a licensed psychotherapist), and my xw's counselor are all in agreement that I have my sitch in the right perspective and have moved on in a respectful manner. The fact that I remain compassionate to others who are going through what I've been through could be sending signals that are misleading; and I will just have to live with that. It's a small price to pay...

I respectfully disagree with your position on whether the actions of our WS's cause our hurt - or we do. We simply have different beliefs on the subject.

FR

LetSTry - I think I am going to print and frame this quote.

When my exH and I were engaged, and he had his first A....he never admitted to it (8 years later, he finally admitted to at the very least, an EA with her....jury still out in my head <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />). So what did I do? I took full responsibility for his A - I thought "well, if he had an A, then there must be something I'm not providing him....otherwise, he wouldn't stray. So I started to become everything I thought he wanted....instead of who I really was.

Therein lied my first poor decision, and where I started to lose love for myself. I became a mirror of my exH's emotions. I let go of myself, my own personality, my own desires in M......in other words, he was no longer married to "me" - he was married to a girl who was "everything she thought he wanted."

You know what? When you do not take ownership for yourself and your actions....you can't love yourself. Pre-A, I did everything for my H. When everything you do is to 'please' your S, then you become dependent on their love. Not at all a safe place to be.

And it also perpetuates the 'victim' role, as ky states. I allowed myself to become a 'victim' b/c if I did as he wanted....and he still wasn't happy....then I was the victim of his anger, unhappiness, resentment, hostility.

And like you said, LetSTry - when OM came around offering "love" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.....I allowed my dependency to shift to him....because his "love" was available, and my H's was not.

The key points here for me....

1) I allowed myself to depend on another's love. I did not love myself. Had my love come from an internal source, then I would not have turned to any external source for that 'feeling.' THAT's why it is so very important for me to learn to love myself TODAY, and to learn how to maintain that love in a LTR. To learn and practice 'not losing myself.' To learn and practice 'not being dependent on another's love.'

2) I allowed myself to be the 'victim' in the M. I had wants and desires for the M as well. I had values and standards I wanted upheld. But because I (so very stupidly) took full blame for exH's first A....I 'sacrificed' those values, standards, and desires. I thought I was compromising and 'saving' the M. But in essence, I was destroying it.

I then became the victim if his response to me being 'what he wanted' was less than positive. And I've had to learn (which unfortunately only started happening in Feb 04) that regardless of what I had done in the past, I had to stand up for what I believe is a healthy M, and a healthy me. Because if the M or myself weren't healthy, then I would again be vulnerable to another A. And I would rather die than consciously know that I am leaving myself or any future R vulnerable.

So I had to shed the 'victim' role, and start taking control of my own desires and standards for the M. In all honesty, I think when I started doing this, my exH felt very similarly to how I perceive the raw emotion of FR on this thread. My exH's way of coping was to feel offended and entitled. His quote to me many times was "you don't have the right as a WS."

Ironically, he then had his own A.

Since our separation, he and I spent about a week a night having dinner and talking. We sometimes would spend 4-5 hours in the car crying and rehashing the M and both our A's. Once we were able to remove ourselves from the intensity of the emotions, we really began to understand each other....which led to us being able to trust that we both felt true remorse, and both took responsibility for our A's as well as our own roles in the degradation of the M.

Today, even though we are divorced, we have a better relationship than we did for most of our M. And I believe it's because we both finally took responsibility for our own choices and actions....and we finally learned to love ourselves - instead of depending 100% on external love. And that has allowed us to open the doors of communication, understanding, respect, and even love (in a nonmarital way) again.



And LetSTry - at the risk of sounding corny - I think YOU hit the nail on the head....

Had I, as a BS first, learned to love myself instead of thinking "I wasn't good enough...therefore I need to lose myself and become whatever my H wanted" - then I wouldn't have depended on anyone else for love. Thus greatly reducing the risk of my having an A, and possibly even preventing it.

As a WS, I had to learn to love myself, because I finally was able to identify this as "MY" personal weakness that allowed myself to choose the A instead of a healthier alternative. So I had to work on it......and when push came to shove with our M (whose condition remained completely unchanged after 1 1/2 years of recovery), I made the "right" choice. I separated. I DID NOT have another A. Because I was able to love myself.

LetSTry, I commend you for saying all this after 5 years. You said in one very eloquent post what I have tried to express for the past year and a half.

Thank you.

FR - actually, I agree with you that the problem lies in the 'blanket statement.' And perhaps the reason why I was 'greatly offended' is similar to how a racial generalization might work. Just because the 'majority' of a race does or doesn't do something....or just because one person's experience with that particular race was XYZ.....it does not mean it holds true for every person who is that race. And that can be offensive.

However, if it is a matter of semantics here, I will change my wording. I think that blanket statement is a generalization and does not hold true for every WS. I very strongly disagree with that statement.

As for the rest, I honestly think it's not worth fighting about. I can feel the raw pain and emotion from your situation, in your posts. And I honestly feel horrible that you are having to feel that pain. I really hope that wound will one day heal. And I hope it heals quickly for you. Noone should have to continue living in that degree of pain for an extended time.


This statement really helps me to understand more of where you are coming from. And I guess I would have to admit that I would probably have more compassion for the above people IF, and only IF they had made one poor choice, taken full responsibility, identified their own weaknesses/issues, reformed themselves, and served their sentence. Does that mean I would want to live next door to that 'rapist'? Not necessarily. Which is why I don't fault anyone here for saying they wouldn't date a WS.

But I do believe that it is possible for a FWS to take full responsibility, identify their own weaknesses/issues, reform themselves, and serve their sentence. And I hope that is what I have done in my situation. I may not be able to change my past, but I CAN be a better person for the future. And I can do that ONLY by taking full responsibility for my past actions. As both a BS and a WS.

FR - I do not dislike you. And I definitely do not dislike TR. I do disagree, but I think that's OK. I have a better understanding now of where you are coming from, and I hope maybe you have a better understanding of who I am and where I'm coming from. Maybe...maybe not. But I thank you for hashing this out with my on this thread. It actually really helped me to look at a full timeline of what I have and haven't learned in the past 2 1/2 years. And the beneficial (albeit odd) progress of my R with my now exH.

I am a very lucky person to have found these boards. I am constantly humbled by everyone's insight.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Aahhhhhhh, CheckUrHeart-san <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I respectfully disagree.....

Confuscious say "Sometime anger prompt person to look at different perspective. Sometime anger allow for make-up and understanding. Sometime anger can be good. " <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

No, honestly, this thread - anger included - has really helped me work through some thoughts of mine....and not just avoid them. In all honesty, I wish my H and I had expressed more anger in our M. We might have actually addressed some issues instead of avoiding them!

Would you believe that in the first 3 1/2 years of M, we did not have one single fight! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> That should have been a red flag right there! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />I know what you were meaning, CheckUrHeart <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm sorry that it got slightly 'hostile' in here....I will take my oozie and put it back in it's case <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

[color:"pink"] [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I would not date a man who was like this in the past. I believe a man like this should have a woman like him. I believe God forgives and I would too. The problem is a habit like this is usually an unbreakable one. I have my own set of unbreakable habits. I
understand men better who have the same set of bad habits. I
think a woman with the same set of bad habits would understand a man like this best.

Mine was a paraphrase from Lao Tsu, who I consider far wiser than Confusious, so I stand by it. Anger must be channeled positivley to be valuable. If we all understood this, maybe so many of our marriages wouldn't get into trouble.

Yes, I would believe that you and your H didn't have a fight in 3.5 years. My first wife and I were married for over 12 years before an angry word was spoken between us. Once the angry words started, we stopped listening to one another and our marriage fell apart.

FR, We can't have the compassion of Jesus, but it is a goal to aspire to. Forgiveness and compassion aren't the same, to me, as absolution - that's God's job. I wouldn't want to live next door to a child molester and would have a hard time believing his apologies even if he was in recovery. I would also have a hard time dating a FWS because of my own personal experience.

But, I think L.I.T. described it very well. It was my own lack of self-love that allowed me to do things that degraded myself in an effort to keep the love of another person who was treating me badly. I hope that now, after learning this lesson the hard way, I am less vulnerable to allowing someone to treat me badly. I don't think infidelity happens out of the blue. My H had a history of it, but I thought, famous last words, "our relationship would be different". I had suspicions at various times throughout our M, but I was afraid to confront them because I didn't think I could live without him. Like L.I.T., I tried to be the woman I thought he wanted me to be rather than myself. I didn't ask him what he wanted because I didn't want to make myself that vulnerable. I was dishonest with him, but more important, I was dishonest with myself.

Everyone is different and everyone's story is different. There are former BS's I wouldn't date either because many of us are so damaged by the infidelity and try to jump back into a relationship to heal the pain - been there done that, too. I've slowly realized that the most important relationship I have to heal is my relationship with myself.

The first step was realizing I even had a problem, that it wasn't all about H and his problems. Once I recognized part of the problem as mine, I swung to the opposite extreme, blaming myself for being not good enough, not attractive enough, not interesting enough, too old, and definitely not as much fun as the MOW. I've been working hard with the help of IC and Al-Anon at learning to like and love myself. Hopefully, this effort will pay off someday in a healthier relationship.

Bugsy, just curious why you would think this "habit" is any more unbreakable than any other? And while tremendously destructive and wrong, how does a single incident or even two incidents constitute a habit?

I'm not a particularly religious person, but as I understand, God's forgiveness is based on true repentance and is COMPLETE. I'll bet God would date a truly repentant former WS (and the key word here is 'former').

And, I disagree that being unfaithful to your spouse is bad habit in the truest sense. Bad habits are things like nail biting, leaving the toilet seat up and messiness. Affairs are a whole different ballgame and cannot be compared to bad habits - it's not even an 'apples to oranges' kind of comparison.

That said, I think that we are all guilty of generalizing here. The question is "Would you date a person who was a former WS?"

Thinking about this a bit more, for me, it would depend a lot on all the things I stated earlier (and I agree the accountability goes both ways), plus I'd want to know and consider some other things: Was this a ONS kind of thing? How did it happen? What did he learn about himself and what has he done with himself to assure me and any other woman he would not do something like that again? If it was an ongoing affair, how long did it go on? Did he realize he was wrong to have an affair? Was there more than one affair? How many and how many different women? Did he ever cheat on any women he dated in exclusive relationships? How long was he married the first time he was unfaithful? Did he leave his wife while she was pregnant?

I'd also want to know how long it had been since the affair ended and how long since his marriage had ended. Too little time between the end of either one and the present would be a big red flag for me.

Answers to some of these questions, if answered truthfully (and let's be honest, there is no way for us to KNOW if he is telling the truth all of the time), would go far for me in my ability to determine if he was the kind of man that I would be willing to have in my life. Particularly the answers to the questions regarding the numbers and duration of affairs. If he cheated on women he dated in exclusive relationships, all bets are off. If he cheated with multiple women, I'm thinking I'd not want to date him. If he cheated with one woman multiple times, I would not date him (I'd be afraid that one woman would enter MY life, too). If he cheated over a long period of time in the marriage (i.e., a couple of years or more) I'd be just as wary - what is to prevent him from just resuming that relationship again?

I guess, looking over what I've written, I am trying to distinguish between a person who has no understanding or respect for long term relationships and a person who made a huge mistake (be it a single ONS or a single affair during a year or two of his marriage during a stressful time when his head was on backwards). Past behaviors can be indicative of patterns of behavior, which is what I would want to see. Is there a pattern of disrespect for committed relationships? Is there a pattern of disrespect for the ultimate committed relationship - marriage?

I have to say, though, that no matter if all the rest of the answers point to a stupid mistake for which he is repentant, I have a personal distaste for any man who can leave his wife for the OW while she is pregnant. I would not be able to forgive him or trust him ever if I found out that he had done that. Just my personal "thing".

Another thing, if all other questions/criteria are met to my satisfaction, I'd want to see that he was regretful still, but not wallowing in guilt and self-hatred still. I would not want to date someone who was in an unhealthy emotional place. It's not my job to make him feel better about himself, it's not my job to fix him, anymore than it is his job to fix me. I cannot get sucked into someone else's guilt and remorse, as it is unhealthy for me. There is a degree of remorse/regret that I'd want to see, but it cannot consume him.

Aside from that, I think we all need to remember that there are no guarantees in every day life. If we allow this to immobilize us then we will live vary solitary and lonely lives. If we remember this as a caution, we can keep our eyes open for the red flags. If we throw caution to the wind, there is every possibility we will wind up hurt. For the recovering BS, we need to discern the difference between caution in the face of the red flags, and hiding away from any possibility of hurt. One exposes us to the hurts AND happiness available to us in the world - including the possibility of finding a companion in life, and the other pretty much guarantees we will be alone.

CS

LIT:

BTW - I like your post above to Letstry. Well said.


I agree with your analogy about racial generalization and our discussion. I also know Tree's story and recall her "dark-days" with her DS. Your statement seemed insensitive to me due to who was involved as I feel sure Tree had no intention of offending you or anyone else. The original topic is "fully loaded" and I'm surprised that passions weren't jostled prior to now.



I agree that there is no further sense in arguing about this matter. And thank you for your concern about feeling pain. Your assumption seems directed toward me - and I suppose in a very indirect way, you're right. However, my perceived "pain" is actually passion! [There could be the argument that passion comes from pain I suppose!] I have been passionate about deceit and adultery long before xw decided to have her A. And I am (and have been my entire adult life) particularly passionate about men/Dad's who cheat, because I see it as a cowardly, self-centered act! Men are supposed to lead their family by example and I remain apalled at those who choose to step outside their commitments to family and wife. My family & friends would tell you that they've come to love this about me; and I can honestly say that a few of my male/father friends have at least partially credited their refusal to stray - to my passion. Having said all of that, if your perception of my passion is "pain", then I owe it to myself to consider your thoughts. Please allow me to ask that you take a few moments and consider plugging in "passion" where you think "pain" and let me know how that fits. To me, passion and pain can appear to be the same, much like some people can appear to be laughing, when they are actually crying (and vice-versa). I will tell you though - that I am guilty of idealism, which in these times, takes a direct route to accountability. (Of myself, and everyone else.) And I will never be offended about being idealistic with concern to the topics discussed.


Thanks. I am unsure what we disagree about but I think it's OK to disagree and I clearly do not dislike you either. In fact, we are probably much more alike than we realize about many issues and I feel that I have a better understanding of where you're coming from as well. The fact that you participate on here at all shows that you are compassionate.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Letstry:


Forgiveness and compassion are absolutely not the same. And I also agree that absolution is God's job.


I agree with this description of self-love and am also sorry that you degraded yourself in your effort to keep the love of one treating you badly. (Or for any reason!)


Yes - what you did in order to do what you thought was right for your M is a fairly common theme. I do not clearly understand why you feel you were dishonest with yourself however I can see why you held onto your vulnerability. (Which is what relationships are truly centered around.)


Yes - I can see why you feel partly responsible for issues in your M. And I think that all BS's (generalization <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />) will say the same thing. And I will go even further to say that I believe all marriages have room for improvement.

I sense that you are suggesting your behavior in your M contributed and/or led to your WH's affair. If you are - I wholeheartedly disagree, and will always disagree with that thought. To me, they are two separate matters (marital issues and adultery) and should be treated as such.

Thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

FR

No, in no way do I take any responsibility for my H's affair. What I take responsibility for is the choices I made that got me into the marriage and kept me in it despite the red flags. I chose to be with a man who was a WS in his 1st marriage - back to the topic here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> - and who blamed his behavior on his XW. The dishonesty to myself you questioned earlier was about not wanting to look at that and other information about his behavior because I wanted to make the relationship work, I thought I was different and he wouldn't treat me that way, despite no recovery on his part.

I didn't want to look at the truth - that's what I take responsibility for. As you said, marital issues happen in every marriage, they aren't cause for affairs or divorce. After D'day, when my self-esteem was at rock bottom, I blamed myself - my age, unattractiveness, bad personality, whatever - for why he'd choose to have an affair. I no longer feel the way I did then and I know those things had nothing to do with his choices. H's choices are his choices and no one else is responsible for them but him.

My main point is I've realized I can't blame my unhappiness or poor choices on anyone else either. All relationships are different, but in my case, there truly were red flags I chose to ignore. I was afraid to acknowledge them for fear of his immediate reaction and ultimately of losing the relationship. I reacted to my fear like the proverbial ostrich by sticking my head in the sand.

My response to the original question is I don't believe choosing to avoid anyone who was ever a WS is enough to guarantee a good relationship or even fidelity. I believe I'll attract someone at the same emotional/spiritual level as myself, so I need to be the kind of person I'd want to be with in order to attract that kind of person into my life.

Crystal,

Unfortunately and to my dismay, I'm struggling with the possibility of the above RED flags.

Jo

Hi Topie,

I apologize for not responding sooner. This thread became quite large and a bit emotionally charged that I somewhat lost track of the responders to my inquiry.

Thank you for your very kind words. I hope your life is going well, and your kids and you are healthy.

Love,
Jo

[color:"blue"]p.s. I'm certainly not saying that the folks that have posted on this thread aren't welcome, they def are. I've been reading with great interest.[/color]

Has he explained the situation to you in more detail? If you don't mind sharing what he's shared with you, I'd like to know what is situation was - maybe we can offer you more insight.

I think my post on this is still pretty general, because there are many times that our emotions outstrip our logic and we wind up doing things that we always swore we'd NEVER do... like try to reconcile with our wayward spouses... I am realistic enough to know that what I say today and what I do tomorrow might be two different things. The stuff I brought up would still raise those red flags, but I might still date the guy, too. And that choice might be bad or not.

What is HIS story, Jo?

CS

Hi Crystal,

Couple things, I believe he reads here. And, I also want to be respectful of his feelings in this matter, as he would be with mine.

In the last week or so some things have come to light. Information that was volunteered by him, where his initial implication to me was quite different.

Jo

They were. I was offended by lots of this too -- I just decided to walk away and ignore.

I'm going to make a blanket statement here myself -- I get tired of the holier-than-thou attitude that many (ok ok -- but not all) BS's have.

Topics like this make me feel like scum. It makes me feel defensive, and maybe thats why you see a lot of justifications. All of us pond-dwellers get tired of you looking down on us from your pedestals and deciding whether or not we are worthy. Whatever.

Am I going to be forever judged and labeled by one mistake I made?

I know for a fact that I would make a better partner now that I was pre-affair. I've learned a lot about myself. Came out better after my walk through H***.

How come no one is ever a "former" bs? Just curious...

I agree Lex. I stopped reading this thread a long time ago out of frustration. I was a BS, but consider myself NO better than a WS, or anyone else. There's plenty of BS's that are pond-scum, for whatever reasons, including things like, they haven't done the work necessary to recover from all the things that went wrong in their marriage, and the pain they went through ... this sortof addresses your "former BS" label.

There's also plenty of former WS's out there that would be WAY better relationship partners, BECAUSE of the wake-up call, lessons-learned, tremendous healing, learning and growing that they have gone through.

The other thing I consider is "never say never", because you never know what you might do down the road, including falling in love with someone that made a mistake somewhere in their past.... and you never know who might fall in love with you, who also have made some mistakes yourself in the past....