Jo, I understand...

Good point, Lexxxy... I consider myself a "former" bs. Because I am no longer anyone's spouse at all, and nobody is cheating on me anymore.

And I don't think that one mistake defines who somebody is, anymore than I think that the amount of fat on somebody's body or hair on somebody's head defines their value as a life partner either.

But, there are a lot of people who make life decisions like that - a fat girl is not good marriage material, a bald man is not attractive, and defining how they view the world after they've been hurt by that hurt. It's human nature.

CS

Lexxxy, and anyone else this thread has upset or offended. My deepest apologies for any grief this has caused you.

My intentions were sincere in looking for support regarding dating someone who had cheated in his former marriage.

My relationship experience is limited to my ex-H who was, as you may know, a serial offender of the worse kind. I intentionally waited and worked on myself a long time before ever seriously considered dating.

Understandably, I was very apprehensive in finally dipping my toe in this pool of water. I didn't feel I should or could trust my instincts realizing this date person's past. So I came back here and posted to the good folks who had got me through the worse time of my life, you being one of them Lexxx.

I'm sorry this thread morphed and escalated into something other than what was intended.

Jo

"Am I going to be forever judged and labeled by one mistake I made?"

I should certainly hope not. Lexxxy. You know you cage your comments in a very judgemental way - perhaps owing to that defensiveness you mention - but you do make a valid, if somewhat oblique point. Too many people wallow in victimhood and cannot let it go. A BS may have been originally betrayed by their WS, but if they don't get over it and move on, they betray themselves in a way that is much more damaging. BS's need to make forgiving the WS a top and one of the first priorities. Once that has happened, you may just get some insight and probably notice that your halo isn't as shiney as you thought it was.

Not all, and I would venture a guess that no WS started out to betray their spouse. To be honest, I don't think it's the revelation of an affair that hurts as much as the WS's refusal to give it up, the way they cast the BS aside like a pair of worn out shoes - not to mention the rapidity with which it happens. There simply is no way that the WS, wrapped up as he or she is in the exciting love affair, can possibly understand the agony that the BS feels. Well, at least not until later. So if you feel sometimes that BS's are coming down hard on you, understand that they really are viewing the issue from the nasty end of the stick and rationalizations and justifications by a WS get their hackles up fast.

Yet you are absolutely right. A mistake is a mistake and it's unfair to continue to beat up on someone for a mistake that they have acknowledged. Shoot, if we need to beat up on anyone there are plenty of serial cheaters out there. I know a fellow who cranked up an affair three years ago, got bored with that, so went on line and got hem a new honey, but without dumping the other one, of course. Last year he left his wife and three kids for honey number two. Not having enough complication in his life, he gets honey number one (who is also married) pregnant. Now he's marrying honey number two. Neither honey knows about the other. Let's beat this sorry excuse for a man up.

Lexxy: It was the Holier-than-thou attitude that made me abandon this thread...I am glad I wasn't the only one to notice...

Faith said: There's also plenty of former WS's out there that would be WAY better relationship partners, BECAUSE of the wake-up call, lessons-learned, tremendous healing, learning and growing that they have gone through.

That was my point earlier and I think that I am one of them WS's that would bw WAY better based on my experience...(IMVHO)

Jo: No reason whatsoever to apologize for the thread...I think it has brought some very important points out in the open...I would say:

1. Good job... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

2. Be careful as you continue to date... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Best to all

E

I do agree that what we've experienced in life can affect how we view things. (I have to comment on the "bald" thing though. I am currently seeing a guy who is, shall we say "follicly challenged". He buzzes what he has left. He's made a couple comments about it early on, like he's self-conscious. I find him to be quite sexy. So, no one should ever say "never" will something happen.)

Okay, point is, this guy could be hurt because he's been betrayed twice--once by his ex and once by a woman he was in a longer-term relationship with since his divorce. So, he meets me--and I have to tell him I'm a former WS. He could have just shut down, and in fact I expected it. But he's giving me a chance and he truly believes I am not the person I once was.


I totally agree with this statement!

I have been a WS (and the pain and regret from that I'll carry to my grave). I have also been a BS through two long-term affairs on my ex's part. I could be really angry--both at my ex and at life in general, because of how unfair it was that I gave my all to him and he turned his back and walked. I could despise any man who even so much as looks sideways at another women.

But I don't. I actually feel bad for both my ex and his now fiancee (who he will probably never marry--he apparently got her the ring and proposed to shut her up, but he won't give her the $ she needs to divorce her husband, so he'll just live with her and eat cake and have no real commitment.) Look at the life they're living. My ex had so much potential. Now he's throwing his life away for this woman and for the drugs he is doing on a regular basis at this point.

I pray for them on occasion. I pray for her two kids she has custody of. I am angry at their stupidity from time to time, and for some of the hateful voice messages he still leaves on my phone. I'm angry because he's behind in child support. I'm angry because he does nothing when it comes to being a father for his kids (now teenagers).

But I refuse to feel like I'm a victim because of his affairs, or that people owe me anything (and that includes compassion). I'm really no different than anyone else. Some people lose spouses to cancer or terminal illness. That's painful to them, but they go on. I lost mine to stupidity and another woman--also painful--but I will also go on.

Letstry:



Gotcha! Another MB-er and I had a conversation about the issues you discuss on your post and I would like to ask you what I asked her: While you were doing all the things you were doing in your M for/with H that were "out of character" for you (is that a clear assessment?), do you feel that you were behaving this way so as to hopefully save your M and also improve it? If so, let me share some insight that SH provided to me. He agrees that you should have done all that you reasonably and morally could have to help save your M, with the ultimate goal to improve your M. In other words, the end would justify the means.



SH and I also talked about this. (Because I also believe that my [overall] happiness is my responsibility.) SH's position is [and I agree] that we are ultimately responsible for our own happiness in the long run. However in marriage, it is reasonable and healthy to know that our "short term" happiness can and should be affected by our spouses. If our spouses meet an EN, we are happy. If they LB, we are unhappy. The key - as in all of this relationship stuff - is communication. "When spouse meets EN's, be happy and discuss it. When spouse LB's, be unhappy-disappointed-angry..., discuss it, and release it. Then we hold responsibility for our own happiness after that." It made a lot of sense when he explained it to me and I hope not much was lost in this paraphrase.

FR

Actually, FR, you don't have her at all. The two of you are talking about completely different things here. I think some of MB'ers get "religion" about these methods Dr Harley teaches and fail to understand that the only way MB or any other method of enriching a marriage can ever work if is both partners enthusiastically participate. A WS is not going to participate. For someone to say "I had an affair because my spouse is a love-buster who wasn't meeting my EAs" is perposterous; it's anti-marriage by definition. And you know, what? Nearly ALL WS's blame their affairs on some shortcomming on their spouse's part. They may truly believe it, but it is still a falsehood. Until they come to understand that it is falsehood, they will always be at risk of cheating again.

Here's my understanding of what Letstry is saying. She ignored the fact that her H had cheated on his previous W and was still blaming her for his philandering. He was an unrepentent cheater, still making others responsible for his behavior. She ignored this and, by doing so, surrendered responsibility for her own happiness to him. She found out the hard way that as sure as the sun rises each morning, an unrepentent cheater will cheat again.

Jo- please don't apologize for anything. I think its healthy for all of us to discuss it. Feather-ruffling is ok.

Its interesting that although I was both a BS and a WS, I always feel that its the "WS" that defines me here.

Pre-affair I was pretty smug. I had myself on a pedestal. Never dreamed that I would become a WS - in fact would have strongly denied that possibility. I had a strong sense of my values--morals--standards. I could be judgemental about others.

During and after my affair, I fell far. I was in the depths of depression over what I had done and who I had become. My view of myself was forever changed. I had to work so hard to re-define myself. To understand myself again, to know what I stand for. The very hardest part was to forgive myself.

To see people here who won't forgive me for what I did, who put me into a category that is unworthy -- is depressing. It was hard to like myself again, and some of these comments threaten my self-worth. I think thats where my sensitivity is coming from.

Also, there are some here who remind me of my previous self. The one who thought it would "never be me." Like Faith said - never say never. That was one of the biggest lessons for me.

I really do understand, Lexxx. It’s interesting as a FWS you can see yourself as unworthy, because that’s how I, a FBS, had felt regarding relationships. Damaged goods, unworthy.

I, too, have had to do some brutal self examination – figure out who I am NOW instead of seeing myself as a Former BS – A VICTIM to some degree. I detest seeing myself in that light, whereas before I somewhat proudly wore it as a badge … making the smug statement “I didn’t cheat, HE did”. So what, right. Who cares, bottom line I’m still divorced. And if I don’t make progress towards happiness I certainly can’t blame anyone but myself. Accepting and owning this, IMO, is the lion’s share of this life changing experience.

Doesn’t so much matter the title or badge we once wore, it’s who we are now .. years later. And if we learned anything. I hope and believe I have.

Love,
Jo

LeXXXy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Holy crap LeXXXy .... what's up with you? Are you OK? Feeling low for other reasons? YOU are usually not this twitchy.... should we worry?

Let me flip this just a minute so you may see something else (not a pedestal).

My H is an alcoholic. He is a sober-living step-working AA alcoholic for 10 years now.

If the title of this thread were:

Would you date a person who was a former alcoholic?"

My fast answer would be "No. I would choose diffrently"

And that would NOT be because I place myself on some damn pedestal (nice assumption)

BUT because I know where my weaknesses lie

Me choosing to date a known alcoholic is dangerous for me because I make a perfect alcoholic's wife !!!!

*disclaimer* I am not dating anyone ... I am happily married to my beloved alcoholic **

But if I were single ... I would choose NOT TO date a reformed alcoholic because it feeds some of my weakest areas !!!!

And thus .... some formerly betrayed now-divorced folks might opt out of the choice of dating a FWS ... for reasons NOT having to do with them having a holier-than-thou-pedestal-residing-lofty-attitude.

I would not date a recovered sex addict knowingly. Does this make me pedestal materal? I would not date physicans either !!! or airline pilots !!! My do-not-date list is large <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (good thing I am married ... no?) LOL

sheesh!

PS

>>> hi Jo <<<

just waving

>>> hi LordsLady <<<

Lexxxy ... I am bringing this to the foreground to say something ....

This poster (who I actually care for) is one who recently gave another MBer (a not-yet-divorced BW) her opinion/advice that it is OK to begin to DATE ~before~ there is an actual divorce.

There is such a level of inconsistency of values (obviousely)... and in my mind ... this inconsistency of values is due to Tree's own currently crappy situation.

In other words .... consider the source. And by that I mean ... is this person recovered? If they are NOT recovered .... their opinions are going to refelect their situation.

This is a case in point.

"I WOULD NOT date a WS"

meanwhile

encouraging a fellow MBer to violate her marriage vows "to seek happiness you deserve"

Makes no sense.

First--hi Pep! I haven't been over on GQII forever, so haven't seen you in a long time.

Second, just an update from this former WS/BS, who happens to be dating a former BS...

I am SO glad I've been upfront and honest with the guy I'm seeing, no matter how hard it was. We have a very open, honest relationship where I would say neither of us are afraid to ask the other a personal question if there is something we need to know, or a concern we have.

And at this point, the man I was just SURE would walk when he found out my past, is still very much with me and we spent a wonderful day together today at an amusement park with his 3 kids. And each time we see each other it just gets more and more difficult to say goodbye and wait until the next time.

I have not been this happy with someone in, well--maybe ever--because I've never felt this comfortable being able to just share what's on my heart and not being afraid of being rejected or yelled at.

I am SO thankful that he is willing to give me a chance despite things in my past. I've shared with him that because I'm so happy and things are so good, it almost frightens me, because good times have been somewhat fleeting my adult life. And while I probably shouldn't share his emails without his permission, I'm going to share just a bit of the last one he sent:

and even more importantly though is that I want to assure you that I don't enter into 4th, 5th, 6th dates etc. on a whim and I certainly don't involve my kids or wish to meet others kids unless I'm truly serious about a person. And in case you haven't figured it out yet, for the record, I'm truly serious about YOU!!!

So, while I do understand that some people won't date a former WS, I'm thankful to God that this man (and most likely many others) ARE willing to give us a second chance.

LL

A former wayward spouse is NOT in ANY way the same as a recovering (i.e., former) alcoholic or a recovering (i.e., former) sex addict - unless the waywardness was due to a chemical dependency problem or sex addiction.

We're talking about a person who screwed up. Not a person who has an addiction (regardless of what the comparison is DURING the affair and "withdrawal"). I don't see the comparison at all - apples to oranges - both fruit, but not even nearly the same.

Granted, there are some WS's that ARE addicts - there are some that are addicted to cheating. But those are, from my experience reading this board and millions of words of relationship books, the minority of the people that have affairs.

I think Lexxxy is feeling somewhat justifiably hurt, and while I don't think that we (BS's) are truly intending to "look down" on all people who have cheated, it wouldn't hurt any of us to remember that not everyone on this board in particular is divorced due to infidelity at all - and some who are may be divorced due to spouses who couldn't bring themselves to repair the marriage WITH their repentant FORMER wayward spouses.

With regard to Tree, are you referring, by any chance, to these words she wrote on another's thread in response to the question as to whether or not a nearly divorced person should date a wonderful guy she met?

I'm not seeing a "hey, go ahead and date him - it doesn't matter that you're still married" there. Granted, it seems to lean more toward validation, but she acknowledges that the person must do what is right for her, and does not in any way indicate that she thinks it's ok for people to violate their marriage vows.

Presenting things out of context isn't really fair, I don't think.

CS

Dear Crystal

Forgive me for not making my POINT 'crystal' clear ! (good one, huh? an excellent pun opportunity I thank you for <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

My point is this:

The person saying "I would not date a person with *whatever* trait or history "

.... in NOT talking about the other person as much as revealing somehing about themselves !!!

It matters NOT what the *whatever* trait is .... it could be [color:"red"] red hair [/color] .... saying "I would never date a redheaded Irish woman" .... defines the speaker more than it defines redheaded Irish women. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (I am a red-headed Irish woman)



YOU may be talking about a person who screwed up, I am talking about a person with low tolerence for *whatever* and feels the necessity to distance themselves from the *whatever* when it comes to dating.

I KNOW that the way the *whatever* was phrased was frought with judgemental feelings brought on my the pain experienced ... but the point I was/am trying to make is....

READ these remarks ~knowing~ they define the speaker and ~not~ the subject.

Everyone on Earth knows that red-headed Irish women are tempermental and feisty, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> and should be avoided for those reasons.

Imagine this for a topic:

"Would you ever date a former BS ?" ... on some board. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Any answers that are FIRM (yes or no) are likely a result of personal experience. Hence the speaker has defined his experience more than defines BSs.

"I would NEVER date a former BS ... they are too unforgiving and judgemental."

"I would date a former BS, they just chose the wrong person to marry."

"I would date a former BS unless they are bitter and angry."

~~~~~ all of these responses, and just about any other you might write are all valid for that person.

Our answers about this are about US. You cannot answer the alcoholic date question "Would you date a recovering alcoholic?" for me. AND, I cannot answer it for you.

It's a feeling. It's a judgement call. It depends on where you and I might be on our journey of recovery and is based on our past experiences.... and what lessons we took to heart ---> about ourselves.

It is also knowing where you are likely to fail yourself. Recognizing pitfalls before you walk into them.

Someone who refuses to date a former WS may have doubts about their ability to hold boundaries or even their ability to get intimate with a former WS.

We define our limits of tolerence ... we define what we know about ourselves.

The "somewhat" is not *crystal* clear (there, I did it again, pun-mania <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)

What I take from your message about Lexxxy (who everyone knows is an amazing person) is that she is sensitive to what others think and say. Again, Lexxxy's response speaks volumes about Lexxxy herself ... and Lexxxy's response does not define anyone but her.

Feelings do not need justification. They just are.

Lexxxy (like everyone of us) has the right .... to have her feelings hurt whenever they ARE hurt. Justified or not. Reasonable or not.

There is no justifiable feeling. Feelings exist outside morality or conscience.

Behaviors and actions however ... do exist within the confines of moral judgement.

And, I agree with you Crystal, some of the things said here were angry and bitter and not well thought out ... and it is highly likely those words might cause pain to a sensitive person like Lexxxy or Crystal.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Pep:

Good to see you. Hope all is well. How is Orchid doing over there? Still chasing pineapples?


I agree. Would you consider a BS's choice to refuse to date any WS as one of the "personal boundaries" that BS's are supposed to set in their multi-year recovery period?

At what point (or how many failed relationships with WS's) should a BS consider owning full responsibility for these failed relationships? Certainly not all WS's will cheat again - however certainly some will. And if a BS chooses not to date any WS's so as to eliminate this "variable(s)" [and all that goes with it] from their relationship equation - isn't that person doing exactly as suggested on this site? The fact that some WS's take offense to BS's who set that personal boundary is IMHO, unfair and perhaps a bit too personal. To borrow your analogy - is it any different than an ex-spouse of a former alcoholic, who refuses to date anyone who drinks?

Glad you popped in. Come back again soon! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

FR

I am most worried about Tree here actually.

Jo is pretty well healed. Lexxxy is pretty well healed.

Tree, on the other hand, is in the deepest part of her pain and chaos.

If you do a re-read of the quote you made of Tree's words .... you recognize right away that she is actually

giving this message to herself !!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Tree, you deserve to be happy."

"Be careful Tree."

"You know what's right for you Tree."

"Tree do what YOU think is best for YOU."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's obvious, isn't it?

Where have we heard these phrases before? ---> Right before a good person is about to give themselves permission to have an affair.

THIS is why I am most worried for Tree. There is a delicate place where many betrayed and abandoned BS usually reach where their TAKER starts screaming and yelling at them to "GO GET WHAT YOU DESERVE."

Enter an opportunity that feels really good, another person to fill their love-bank .... but if this is indeed a good person .... they will feel like CRAP later if they answer their TAKER'S call and break their marriage vows and enter an affair before their divorce. If you don't believe me, ask the lovely LordsLady ... she knows EXACTLY what I am talking about! She is a really good person who's taker was telling her "YOU deserve happiness" .... and what the TAKER fails to mention is this ---> happiness that goes against your core beliefs ....

And Tree is ~right there~ ... standing on the edge of that cliff with an empty love-bank.

FR...

I am having difficulty finding the MEAT of your point.

Would you please try to re-state it so I can't miss it?

I think if I reply right now, I will muddy everything because I don't get what your point is ....

Thanks amigo <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Pep:

First - you know many of the folks involved much better than I do. [ie: personalities, feelings, etc.] With that in mind: As you know, this thread got personal there for a while. And there were hurt feelings over it because a few BS's say they will not/will never date a former WS. [Me included]. The reason for the hurt feelings is because some former WS's took the opinions of BS's as personal toward them, when the opinions were not meant that way. And it escalated from there.

I think your previous post spelled out the fact that WS's former and present, should not take these opinions as personal. I agreed, and gave reasons why - one of which you suggested in the "alcoholic" analogy. I was checking to be sure that I fully understood your message. And if not, I figured that you would clear it up for me.

Does that make better sense?

FR